Bearcats Mean Business Archive: 2025

Grant Freking: (00:00)
The mission of the UC Center for Business Analytics is to connect, teach, learn about, and promote the application of business analytics and AI through a community of industry and academic experts. The center executes this mission through a range of trainings, engagements, and events. And one of the center's big annual events is fast approaching, the Analytics Summit.

Grant Freking: (00:20)
The 2025 Analytics Summit will be held May 6th at the Sharonville Convention Center in Cincinnati. This year's theme is Follow the Money. The Summit includes four keynote speakers, 15 breakout sessions, and a networking reception. On this episode of Bearcats Mean Business, Center for Business Analytics Executive Director Tim Cholvat is joined by Todd James, a seasoned C-Suite technology executive, board member, senior advisor and business unit leader, who is now the founder and CEO of Aurora Insights. Tim and Todd are here to discuss the Analytics Summit, where Todd will host a talk entitled, Unlocking Business Potential with AI, Insights from Industry Leaders. Take it away, Tim and Todd.

Tim Cholvat: (01:02)
Hello Todd. Great to have you here today.

Todd James: (01:04)
Likewise, glad to be here, Tim, thanks to have me.

Tim Cholvat: (01:07)
We're excited to have you as a speaker in the industry alignment track at the Analytics Summit this year. Can you please tell us a bit about your background, why you chose the title Unlocking Business Potential with AI Insights from industry leaders for your talk?

Todd James: (01:23)
Happy to, uh, you know, I'll start with the background, uh, throughout my career. Uh, and it's a really interesting time that we're in now. I've always kind of operated at the intersection of business and technology, so I've had business roles where I'm leveraging technology to support my p and l, to support my function, but I've also led technology business units as a CDO and a CTO, uh, at large organizations. So, um, and from a, a progression, I've had large roles at Fidelity Investments where I help them build out their AI journey, uh, leading and building out global analytics capabilities for that company, as well as, uh, at 84.51 and Kroger, where I was Chief Data and Technology Officer for 84.51. And I led the AI agenda and enterprise data for Kroger. So had an opportunity to, uh, see hands on and, and stand accountable for, for analytics advancement within, you know, some very large firms.

Todd James: (02:20)
The reason I chose this talk is we're at a pivotal moment. We're at a once in a lifetime global re-platforming event that's gonna be transformative for business. And a lot of cases, it, it, it, it's talked about from a technology angle, and it gives the impression that it's technology led, um, when in reality it's technology enabled. So what I want to have in this discussion is a candid dialogue with the attendees at the conference where I can share, and we can have a discussion around what are those things that the business needs to do to be able to truly set themselves up to gain, uh, a competitive advantage. At the end of the day, transformation doesn't happen because of technology. It's enabled through technology, but the business is where the change has to happen. So that's what we're gonna talk about.

Tim Cholvat: (03:09)
Yeah, and as you say, this is an inflection point and really through technology over the last 30, 40 years, there's probably been a half a dozen critical inflection points, and I think many of us feel that this is the point right now. And I think you, you captured it well to say that, uh, how do, how is this gonna affect the businesses going forward?

Todd James: (03:29)
A hundred percent. Right. And I, we, we have an opportunity, right? If you're, if you're a business leader out there, um, I, I would say that the time to watch is over. Uh, your competitors are moving. Uh, the way that this technology works is there is an additive effect. So the sooner that you're able to get into it, you start to influence decision points throughout your organization, through analytics and data, the more, the more advantage you're gonna be able to get, um, in an aggregate fashion across your business. So time starts now, and I think that's, that, that's part of what I wanna reinforce to the dialogue that we're having.

Tim Cholvat: (04:07)
Yeah. And we all know that the, uh, the continuum from early adopters right through to laggards, and it feels like we're, we're in the middle of that. Maybe just past a bit past the, the crest of it.

Todd James: (04:19)
I would say we're past the crest of it. But when you start to look at companies that have leaned in and you start to look at the data, you see an increase in total shareholder return across the board for those companies that are leading. I mean, it's more than two x increase. For those companies that are, um, really leading in ai, you're also seeing greater productivity. I think the estimate now is on average around 40% increase in productivity. You're seeing greater customer engagement, greater loyalty. So there is a measured difference when you start to look, and that's not just companies adopting ai. What I'm talking about is the difference between those that are dipping their toe in the water and those that are doing laps.

Tim Cholvat: (05:02)
Yep, exactly. So what do you want the analytics summit attendees to take away from your talk?

Todd James: (05:08)
I, I think what'll be important for them to take away from the talk is a few things. One of which is I think it'll be important to have a foundational understanding of what AI is, not just from a technical perspective, but what it means from a business perspective. And at the highest level, I think it'll be important for them to understand that AI is really about using data to inform and activate decision points. That it is not in a solution in itself, but it's an enabler that drives business outcomes. And I think it's really important to get a realistic view of how AI can start to have a true, meaningful bottom line value across the company. And one of the one, one of the areas I was thinking about it last night that I've seen in the analogy that I'll use is I had a discussion with my, uh, doctor on Friday, annual physical, and we were talking, clearly can see how my physical went.

Todd James: (06:05)
And, uh, we were talking a little bit about, uh, weightlifting and, and the benefit there. And, and I saw some analogies. So if when you look at exercising and weightlifting, you don't see a return after a week. It's a little bit, you're tearing down muscle, it's rebuilding, but across six to 12 months, your body starts to change if you're eating right, if you're exercising. I think one of the challenges that we've had with ai, and one of the myths is because it seems magical, even though it's math, there's been an expectation in business that I put AI out there and I see an immediate material transformational bottom line impact, when in reality what it's about is influencing individual data points. Whereas over time, that becomes an additive benefit if you're tracking it. If you're measuring it and you're doing it right. And what I've seen a lot of companies do is start and then throw up their arms and say, Hey, I'm not seeing the value here. Is this worth investing in where other companies are continuing to lean in, have robust measures around it, and are seeing transformative bottom line value, and those are gonna be the companies that are competing in the future and winning.

Tim Cholvat: (07:13)
Yeah. And it, it's the old battleship analogy, right? That if you're dealing with, let's, let's go back to your Kroger 84,.51 days. Yeah. I mean, uh, a couple of hundred thousand, uh, employees, you can probably tell me the more accurate size, but it's about

Todd James: (07:27)
440. Yeah, yeah. Thousand.

Tim Cholvat: (07:29)
But turning that ship when, when you're dealing with, uh, upwards of $150 billion in revenue is, is enormous. And, and that's, uh, that's a perfect example of, uh, of, of that.

Todd James: (07:43)
The beauty there, it's also an environment, and this is something we'll talk about in the session, where you have high volume decisions and you have the data to support it, or you can develop the data to support it. Um, in a large company like that, small changes can make big differences.

Tim Cholvat: (07:58)
Yep, yep.

Todd James: (08:00)
And we'll also talk a little bit about too, uh, say you don't have the kind of volumes that $150 billion firm does. Where do you look to be able to get that kind of meaningful value that resonates and shows up on your bottom line? It depends on industries, but where you choose to start this process has a pretty big impact on how you start to see the value in the return.

Tim Cholvat: (08:20)
So let's go to some specifics. So how, how do you see that industry leaders are using AI driven analytics to gain a competitive edge? And, and do you have, do you have a good example that you've run across that, that you can, uh, you can demonstrate that encapsulates maybe, uh, some of that, uh, leaning in?

Todd James: (08:39)
Yeah. Here, here's what I would say. I think first and foremost, what I've seen most is within companies, I see pockets of excellence. You're not seeing a whole lot of companies that have it across the board. However you are seeing some, and the company that comes to mind most often for me is Amazon. If you think about the diversity of their industries and how they are able to build on top of a cloud-based technology platform with an incredible data asset and robust analytics, they are in a, they are the poster child for a digital-based business that is able to transform and create new business models. And, and I had an opportunity, uh, a few years ago, actually, no, it was about a year ago. I went out to their most modern fulfillment facility at the time in San Diego. I, I was in retail. So you're in a lot of different fulfillments, uh, facilities, and this was a tremendous opportunity with Amazon.

Todd James: (09:37)
And, and if you just look at the amount of automation that they had in play and their ability to collect data, both for the use cases in the facility, but also for potential use cases outside, this is a company that is clearly thinking about data in everything they do. So that's an example of an organization. I think, you know, there are other examples that I get excited about. So to get a little bit more granular, um, if you know the, the carbon neutral market for products. To be able to do that, right, you really need to be able to have an unbroken data thread all the way from the feed, all the way to the time it goes on the shelf. And part of this is carbon credits. Part of this is freshness, part of this is supply chain. But if you just think about, Hey, I want a carbon neutral milk product, something that sounds very good.

Todd James: (10:33)
Companies that are looking at, that are looking very granular at how do I capture the data to be able to prove the chain of custody all the way throughout the entire production process for the ingredients that go in so that I can truly demonstrate that this is carbon neutral product and I can claim the carbon credit. So we're seeing areas of industry shifting that are, traditionally, you're talking dairy farms, you're talking feedstock are becoming more and more automated and more and more data driven. So I, I think you're seeing it across the board, but there's, there's, I mean, we could talk for an hour about different examples. Maybe we'll spend some time at the, uh, offsite doing that.

Tim Cholvat: (11:10)
Well, and, and the integration of supply chain, right? Be it the them internal or external supply chains, right? Um, auto sector, um, there's been a lot of discussion over the last few months around the integration of auto sector between, uh, a fully integrated, uh, vertically, uh, integrated auto sector as oppo or I should say auto manufacturing as opposed to, uh, ones that have specialty one specialty, uh, manufacturers outside that for parts. And that's that component of integrating through that whole supply chain is, is really critical for success.

Todd James: (11:46)
A hundred, a hundred percent. It, uh, you know, what I would say is when you look at the supply chain and at a very high level, um, it brings predictability to flow, and it also gives you a better basis for prescriptive decision making when things change. And that's the power of an integrated supply chain.

Tim Cholvat: (12:05)
So, so let's turn to obstacles since we're we're.

Todd James: (12:08)
mm-hmm .

Tim Cholvat: (12:08)
Sort of touching on some of that. So what do you see as the biggest obstacles, obstacles that businesses are facing when integrating AI into their analytics strategy? And in analytics and ai, you really can't separate them because they, they, they live in the same zone, but how can industry and companies overcome some of those obstacles?

Todd James: (12:31)
Yeah, I would say first and foremost, don't try and integrate AI into your analytics strategy. Integrate your analytics and AI strategy into your business strategy. Um, you know, I I, I think at the end of the day, one of the biggest obstacles that, uh, companies face as to treat AI as an end onto itself. And, and you see that that was huge, uh, right after OpenAI announced their chatGPT launch, um, I think in the first quarter of 2023. The tech giants alone said AI about 168 times in their earnings calls. And then you stop counting right across industry. So, you know, I I, I think there's been a lot of hype around this, and I, it, it, what's important for business leaders is don't lose track of business fundamentals. What are the challenges and problems that you're trying to solve? And what you're really looking for is if you can automate it, if it's deterministic, if it's a quick to automated, we have that technology.

Todd James: (13:35)
We've had process improvement, lean six sigma since what, the fifties Right? That we've been implementing that dem throughout.

Tim Cholvat: (13:41)
Deming.

Todd James: (13:41)
Yeah, of course. Duran, all of it.

Tim Cholvat: (13:43)
Yep.

Todd James: (13:43)
And so, you know, the ability to, those tools are there. Now we have another tool, and that tool fits in the gap of I have a person making judgment decisions. And the goal is to convert that to a prediction problem. And where you have data and where you have high volume, that is where you have an opportunity to apply this tool. So you start with the business problem, you look at the, and you figure out how AI can fit into it, but it's really about impacting either improving or activating decision points through data and analytics. And if you keep that in mind, you're gonna drive value. There's a lot we can talk about, about how do you track, how do you drive, how do you hold accountability for it. But my, the biggest misstep I've seen is AI for itself as an outcome, when really it is, we're having a business discussion. AI is an element of a solution, and it is embedded part of our strategy being talked about by business leaders with support from your AI leadership and your data leadership, not the other way around.

Tim Cholvat: (14:49)
Yeah. And, and there's, there's such a, uh, broad spectrum of, uh, integration or people as you, you talked about putting their toes in the water versus leaning in, right? And some people are really at that, putting their toe in the water right now. And, and so if you are, if you're talking or advising a business leader at this point of a company that maybe hasn't quite leaned into it yet, what would you say the first steps they should take? And what are the common mistakes that they should avoid? You've touched on some of that, but maybe, maybe someone who really hasn't gone into it yet. Yeah,

Todd James: (15:25)
I, for getting out of the gate, I, you know, I think there are two cla I I see two problems in, in, there are two challenges that exist in the, the business marketplace right now, the broader marketplace. One is what you described, how do I get started? The other is, Hey, I've gotten started and I'm either not seeing value that I expected, or I don't know how to scale this. So back to your question around that first problem, I, everywhere I've worked, and as I've looked across companies, I think the good news is there's a consistency to what works. And getting that initial project off the ground doesn't mean that you're gonna be a successful transformative AI company, but you have to do it to start. I think the first thing is nothing happens if there is not top-down support. If the CEO and his or her team is not talking about this in onboard, in modeling, it's not gonna happen.

Todd James: (16:20)
'cause this is about transformation more than it's technology. Like if you ask me it's 40% really hard technology, 60% organizational dynamics and change. So time with that leadership team, how you do that, we can talk about, but that needs to be there. The modeling and the buy-in and the messaging from top of the house. The second thing, pick a use case. Pick a leader that wants to take a risk, find an area that has enough data to solve a problem that can be solved through an analytics. Back to that. Are we going to inform or activate a decision point? I have the data, do it, and then put your head down and demonstrate that it works. Create a champion.

Tim Cholvat: (17:08)
Yeah. And, and, and many folks that I talk to sometimes lean into the technology first and they get, they get enamored with, uh, what the latest release is, what the latest, uh, announcements are, uh, the amount that the press is covering. A specific element, but I think you touched on it, is that look for the business case and then apply the technology.

Todd James: (17:35)
And I will add one more thing. Look for the business case, apply the technology, make sure you're measuring and capturing the value. The last point seems like what company does a project and doesn't capture the value. But I, I talked to a lot of companies, and I went through this myself, where, um, if you look at the copilot coding, the paired programming, you, you hear some out of Silicon Valley saying up to 70% efficiency. You hear other companies saying, I'm not seeing it in the budget. But if you measure it and you're rigorous around what is the actual time that's being saved, using old operations management practices to do it, you can then apply that, identify it in the budget, and reapply it from the budget. That's what I did. And we saw a material, uh, uh, uh, uh, efficiency, that we were able to apply to growth. But if you don't measure it, it gets lost in the ether. And I think that's a big part of it.

Tim Cholvat: (18:35)
And at one point, especially around your top title of unlocking business potential with ai, you talked about top down leadership.

Todd James: (18:41)
mm-hmm .

Tim Cholvat: (18:43)
Um, and then you, then you mentioned organizational change. Um, I would say that certainly led by top-down leadership, but you have to have top-down leadership, next-level leadership, middle management leadership, and individual contributor, individual contributor contribution and buy-in if you're gonna make this successful. 'cause any one of those levels can resist. Right?

Todd James: (19:09)
A a hundred percent. And it's, do you wanna, uh, at the conference, maybe we could team up. 'cause I think you, you, uh, you raised a great point. What, what I would say is you get the top down. I've had, uh, and I give this example often when I, when I speak about, uh, how do you know when you've made the turn and when you're, you're getting the traction. And I'll give you two examples. One was from retail. My last organization, um, I was adamant that data science would go out and work in the stores. Um, I went out and did it, which did two things for me. Gave me great insights into, let me know if the data science component didn't work. I really wasn't good at what they did in the stores

Tim Cholvat: (19:50)
Working, working at cash register. Yeah,

Todd James: (19:51)
Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I did a thing and, and this poor lady looked at me and just said, I have to do it again. I mean, she was so disappointed in me,

Todd James: (19:58)
and, and I just felt horrible. But, uh, you know, we went out there and it's interesting. We, we forced that kind of business intimacy. And I went out one day and I, there was a business director and my vice president of data science, and I asked a technical question and the business director answered it. Then I asked a, uh, a business question, and my data science VP answered it. And I walked away saying, this is gonna work. They, they're embedded with each other and they get it. Another example from financial services was we were doing transaction processing changes, and I came down, I talked to the woman who was actually gonna be impacted by it. They were involved in the project throughout, and that's important. And I asked her how it's going, and she said, Todd, you know, I used to be a transaction processor, but now I own a micro bot. I make it better and it makes me better. Those are the kind of comments to get the buy-in. And when the people that are affected by the work, if you don't involve them, it's not gonna work. They can opt out. And they'll do it.

Tim Cholvat: (20:58)
And just like any organizational change, you need to find those champions, don't you? You nailed it. And, and, and inflection points, if I look back at, and

Todd James: (21:06)
By the way, the champions aren't the ones that sit in the big buildings.

Tim Cholvat: (21:09)
No.

Todd James: (21:09)
With the offices.

Tim Cholvat: (21:10)
No.

Todd James: (21:10)
They're on the ground level.

Tim Cholvat: (21:12)
That's exactly right. And they're influencing their peers and colleagues. Right?

Todd James: (21:14)
A 100 percent.

Tim Cholvat: (21:14)
Exactly. Um, the other part you mentioned there around barriers was data.

Todd James: (21:19)
Yep.

Tim Cholvat: (21:19)
Uh, and the role of data quality and governance is a big aspect here. Um, AI is only as good as the data's trained on, as.

Todd James: (21:28)
we mm-hmm.

Tim Cholvat: (21:29)
As we all know, right?

Todd James: (21:30)
Mm-hmm .

Tim Cholvat: (21:30)
Um, what steps should organizations possibly consider to ensure high quality, reliable data that helps them progress with an AI strategy?

Todd James: (21:39)
The first thing I am going to say is counter to probably everything that you're gonna hear from others. I, the, the common conventional wisdom is make that big investment, get your data clean, get everything in place. The challenge I've had is no one's willing to make that investment until they see the value. Um, you know, I spent, uh, uh, at my in financial services waiting about 24 months for technology to put a data platform together that was gonna answer all our problems for data science. That got to a point, wasn't done, and we realized that what the data scientists needed was different than what the technology group did. So what we did instead, line up your use cases, figure out that set of high value use cases that has common data elements, and fix the data as you drive value. So kind of take that use case by use case approach to fixing the data is what I found worked in retail and works in financial services. It does two things. One, you gotta fix the data one way or the other. And two, you're driving material economic benefit, which gives you the proof points to be able to request the investment that you're gonna need to make those broader investments. Now, I've talked to private companies that say, look, we spent $3 billion on a data platform over the last few years. That is a tough thing to do. And lower margin businesses and public companies.

Tim Cholvat: (23:11)
Sure, especially in retail, where you're, where you're dealing with, uh, splits of pennies.

Todd James: (23:15)
Yep.

Tim Cholvat: (23:15)
Um, and, and, and if I can read into that, what you're really advocating is more of an agile approach as opposed to a waterfall approach.

Todd James: (23:25)
A hundred percent.

Tim Cholvat: (23:25)
Yeah. And those waterfall approaches of, of, uh, a huge multimillion dollar, uh, projects that go into data organizations, data organization, can go on for a long time. And sometimes the people who are investing the money in that get weary and they get weary as to, as you said, where's my return? And after two years of explaining to the CEO that yeah, just trust me, it, uh, it can get it, it can get a bit tiring.

Todd James: (23:56)
And, and, and I, you know, I I, I think too, you're gonna talk to a lot of people there is, uh, what would they say the average tenure for a chief data officer? I think it's around two years. I, I think this is part of the reason why, um, if you're not showing value in a meaningful and material way within two, two years, it's very difficult not just to justify the project, but to justify the position.

Tim Cholvat: (24:18)
Let's talk about different industries. You've taught. You've, you've touched on a few of them. Do you see different approaches across different industries and maybe sectors? So, uh, what are some of the key considerations that businesses, businesses should keep in mind when aligning their AI strategies to their specific industry?

Todd James: (24:37)
I, I, I think there is a difference, whether you're public or private. There, there's some common themes, right? Good business is good business no matter what your industry is. And I think there's difference across industries, uh, where I like to approach it, keep your eye on the p and l, approach it from the p and l. There's certain industries, if you're looking for a big meaningful material return, where if it's a larger-margin business going after customer engagement, increasing your revenue through greater engagement, greater sales, can be a very good place to start. There are other places where you may actually get a bigger lift if you are on paper-thin margins and you're looking at an EBITDA return to focus on productivity and streamlining your, your backend processes. So I think, you know, if you look at the p and l, it's gonna tell you where to hunt. It's not just speci. You're gonna see trends across industries and within industries, but what more important, you're gonna find out where you have those opportunities within your business. Where do you have goes back to those big pocket of high volume judgment decisions that you can influence and enhance through data and analytics? That's what you're looking for in your p and l. And, and so that's somewhat company-specific, but you do find general trends from an industry to industry perspective.

Tim Cholvat: (26:01)
And, and that's exactly what I was gonna, where I was gonna go on that, is that if you look across industries, be it healthcare, retail, manufacturing, um, there are some, besides the specific companies within an industry, from from early adopters to laggards, there's entire industries that are, and especially, um, in something like, uh, a manufacturing that can't necessarily pivot, right?

Todd James: (26:26)
Yeah.

Tim Cholvat: (26:26)
Because they have huge investments of, of, of production lines that they have to possibly incorporate, um, or in, uh, healthcare where they have to worry about, uh, risk of, uh, of patient outcomes. Right? And, and I think that plays into it as well.

Todd James: (26:41)
Yeah. There's a regulatory landscape that I think you're, you're alluding to that, that that plays pretty big within there. What I would say, though, I, the magnitude and the opportunity, you, you, you, you work in a regulatory environment. You know, I came from financial services, I've worked in healthcare. Uh, the rules are different, but the people in that space also have an understanding how to optimize within that regulatory, uh, regime too. So I don't, I wouldn't where I would push back, I wouldn't use it as an opportunity to say, our industry isn't going to be as disrupted because of regulatory barriers. I think it's gonna be disrupted in different ways. The the other thing that I would say too is there are areas too where the nature of their offering creates, I mean, there, there are new offerings that wouldn't have existed without ai.

Tim Cholvat: (27:32)
Oh, and that's new offerings that come out every month, my goodness.

Todd James: (27:33)
Every month. And so I think that we haven't talked much about the monetization components of data and analytic products, but that is another huge opportunity for people to unlock new markets that they aren't currently looking at. And I think that'll take, I mean, we saw a progression where you would go from, you know, we use the, you create a washing machine to now you have a service offering model around a washing machine that doesn't make a lot of money. At some point, you're gonna have a platform of data that's thrown off from a particular industry like washing machine that you're able to monetize on top of that too. And we're seeing that across industries heavily in retail. I mean, you look at 84.51 and what they do, uh, uh, from a data monetization, uh, point of view within the grocery retail industry, we're gonna see more and more of that across different industries as existing services. Existing offerings increasingly become commoditized through competition. And people are gonna be looking for, for new ways in which to grab yield.

Tim Cholvat: (28:32)
And certainly service industries can pivot a lot faster, um, because of, uh, of ways of work, right? Um, you're not dealing with a whole lot. You can literally write a memo, change the way of work, install, uh, something, get your data organized and be fairly quick in your pivot in, uh, in organization.

Todd James: (28:50)
But even your industrial example, um, while it is tougher to back out of capital decisions, the ability to optimize on top of that. And what I was also seeing is when you go in, and I think if, when you go into a manufacturing, when you go into a supply chain environment, there's an opportunity to optimize from a science perspective. But I'm also finding it's a tool for changing some of the processes. What are the legacy rules that have been in place, and how can we begin to revisit them? So I think it's very important too, that, you know, as part of being business-led, you don't just stop with the technology solution. You, you use. The fact that you're bringing in AI as an opportunity to even rethink some of the existing rules, the existing ways of working and drive change there, I think is gonna be very important for business. So AI as an enabler, but it's also a driver of change if you use it in the right way. 'cause it's disruptive enough, it gives you that cover, that opportunity to make broader changes.

Tim Cholvat: (29:46)
There's an area we haven't touched on, and that's, uh, ethics and bias.

Todd James: (29:49)
Yep.

Tim Cholvat: (29:49)
And, uh, the ethical and responsibility, uh, of AI in business. Uh, and, uh, with AI playing a larger role in these decision makings. We've touched on throughout the discussion here. Uh, how should businesses approach, uh, ethical AI practices including, uh, bias mitigation and transparency?

Todd James: (30:11)
Yeah. I, there's, there's several classes I think that we, we see out there. We see organizations that aren't being responsible enough. We see organizations that are implementing good frameworks, and we see organizations that I think are taking ideological bent. Um, what I would say is, when you look out there, I think it's very important that as you implement these solutions, we, we, we keep in mind that we want to create a world that we all wanna live in. Um, that we want our AI to reflect our individual and collective desires for this world and our individual and collective principles around which we wanna live. Um, as you look out there, I think the standards for safe, transparent, responsible, unbiased ai, we're all using the same frameworks. I mean, it comes down to are we trying to create an environment where we treat people consistently, fairly, safely, decently?

Todd James: (31:10)
You put the person at the center of that I think is very important. Where I do see missteps, um, is when ideology comes into play, and you can say, where's he going with this? Pick your ideology. I don't care if it's left, right, center, up, down. Once you start putting an ideological bent, you end up with cases of feeling good while doing evil. And we've seen some examples of that where, and it wasn't necessarily ai, it was rules based sitting on top of AI, that created situations where certain demographic groups were associated with atrocities, they've never been part of. Family units were represented in ways that, um, biased against certain, certain lifestyles. That that was done with good intent, but the outcome was negative. And that's why I say stay away from ideology. The other example too, I think we're sitting here in Cincinnati, Ohio today.

Todd James: (32:08)
Uh, I think it is very important that we get the broadest cross section of input on what AI ethics should look like. It should not be defined outta the Silicon Valley. It should not be defined out of Seattle. It should not be defined out of Cincinnati, Ohio.

Tim Cholvat: (32:24)
Mm-hmm .

Todd James: (32:25)
It should be represented as a cross section, a give and take, a tug and pull from Texas to Boston to Wichita to San Francisco. And you can think globally. I think we need to make sure that we're being inclusive and that'll put us on the right path. So that's kind of my warning. I think a lot of companies are doing this well. There's a lot of good grounding out there, good frameworks that's being built into tools. If you're not watching out for it, you're gonna get in trouble. But I think from a philosophical point of view, we still have some risk factors that we as practitioners in this field, and quite frankly, as a society at large, need to manage.

Tim Cholvat: (33:02)
Yeah. And especially when you talk about large language models that have a lot of different influences.

Todd James: (33:07)
A hundred percent.

Tim Cholvat: (33:08)
Um, and, uh, and more companies that I talk to are, uh, really considering small language models. And, uh,

Todd James: (33:16)
There's a lot of reasons to do that, by the way.

Tim Cholvat: (33:17)
And well, it, it, it can go both ways too, right? It can go the, the way of large language models have, uh, a bit of crowdsourcing.

Todd James: (33:24)
mm-hmm .

Tim Cholvat: (33:25)
Which is, which is nice as long as you trust them. Um, but small language models have the, uh, within my, uh, boundaries, uh, and, and security firewalls, all of that. Uh, so.

Todd James: (33:39)
Yeah, and I, I, I think there's, I mean, there are cost reasons and other other reasons why you, you wanna look at it. I think to that point, one model doesn't, uh, fit everything. Um, but, but to your point though, I I, I do think taking a little bit more control there, and I, the other thing I talk about too is it's important to keep in mind context. Sometimes being too careful can get companies in trouble. A few years ago there was a Massachusetts company that doing the right thing, Hey, we don't want gender or race involved, which we all sit back and say, that's great. Treat all people equal, take factors that can't be controlled out. There is a context lever that I think is gonna be very important for us as we think about responsible AI and the use of data as well.

Tim Cholvat: (34:23)
So let's put our eyes above the horizon. Um, future of AI powered, uh, analytics. Uh, looking ahead, how do you see AI evolving in the next few years? And what emerging trends should business leaders be aware of as they, as they look at standing trying to stay ahead?

Todd James: (34:40)
Yeah, I, I, I think there's, there's a few things that, that I would say. I, I do think we are going to continue to see an increased penetration of AI capabilities built into platforms and being used by, by companies. I think companies are in two races right now, whether they realize it or not, as it comes to ai. One is kind of the vendor race, getting to the new normal, what all this AI that is gonna be a commodity capability that is consistent across industries and within industries. There is a race to get to that, to change your cost structure and to change your capability mix. But it's not differentiating. It's just to the next normal. The other area that I think, I think companies are gonna be recognizing that and moving. The other area that I see is what I call the differentiation race. And this is where companies that are going to get ahead are really gonna have to start to look, there are three things that they're gonna need to manage.

Todd James: (35:36)
One is, do you have a robust pro proprietary data asset? Two, do you have sciences or access to data sciences to employ it? That used to be the most important. I think over the next few years, it'll be the least important. The third no one talks about that I think will be the most important is are do you have the muscle and the muscle memory to be able to operationalize these changes in a way that has a meaningful impact on your business? And I think that's gonna be the mindset shift that we're gonna see across companies as they look to restructure their platforms, their operations. And when I say operations or operating models. The other big kind of out there change that, that surprise I think will be a bit of a surprise. Um, mobility, we saw the, the rapid change of large language models.

Todd James: (36:25)
We're gonna continue to see an acceleration there, and those sciences are gonna drive the most value when combined with optimization science. So I look across a process, how do I take a predictive science and combine it with some of these large language capabilities to really create a, uh, a, a solution that is simple, easy, and drives big value for a customer, for an employee. But the area that I think in, and I was up at MIT probably three years ago talking to one of the professors who's leading in the fields, and he was talking about how difficult the mobility problem is for AI versus the language problem. You know, working in different dimensions. You don't have to deal with that in language, uh, predictions. So these mobility model concepts are actually getting more traction than I think a lot of us expected. And I think we're gonna start to, like, if you look out across the next five years, I think we're gonna have an equally big moment with mobility that we had with language models. So, and that's not something I had on my card happening as quick as the timeframe I discussed.

Tim Cholvat: (37:30)
Yeah. And it's, uh, just like anything, it's, uh, if you start to, uh, look at trying to predict what's gonna happen over the next five years, you're gonna be absolutely wrong. No matter what you predict

Todd James: (37:40)
a hundred percent . Yeah. What, what, what do they say? Uh, uh, you know, the, it always takes longer over, you know, it seems to go slow over the, the three year period, but over the five to 10 year period, you're shocked by how quick it is.

Todd James: (37:53)
I think we're living in that where, I mean, the, the other thing, and you nailed it, the pace of change that continues to accelerate to levels that I don't think any of us have seen in our career. And I think probably the new normal is however fast it went last year, expected to be faster next year.

Tim Cholvat: (38:08)
Yeah. And, and it's, uh, we have you, uh, in the, uh, track around, uh, industry alignment, but there's, there's other tracks I think that are gonna play into this as too, we have a data foundations track, uh, that people we're gonna hear a couple of stories around, uh, home city Ice is coming and, uh, talking with AMEND and, uh, talking about, uh, their journey around data. Uh, we have Newton technology, uh, some, a couple of companies in there talking about where they're emerging and how they're bringing, uh, AI agents in, uh, into their technologies. Uh, and, uh, one of the other interesting ones is, uh, how you touched on AI and, and, uh, and, and analytics and that relationship and, uh, what that relationship looks going forward, especially as you look at, uh, something around AI and, uh, analytics and prediction, prediction of the next Gen A, you know, gen AI models are analytics and, uh, so I think it'll be a really interesting, uh, conference for a lot of different people. But is there anything you would suggest to, uh, the people that are coming?

Todd James: (39:21)
You know, I think the, the first thing is I think this is an incredible asset for the community. The University of Cincinnati anchoring this conference, bringing together university, bringing together business, bringing together the community, I think is very important for the technology ecosystem. My, my biggest, the two big benefits I always get out of this, is dedicate the time to set aside to really listen. You're gonna hear the business challenges that you're gonna hear the technology advancement, but you're also gonna hear the challenges and the applications of these technologies across industries. There is a lot of opportunity to see what someone else is doing to pull it into your own business. And, and I always am pleasantly surprised and I find some of my best ideas for the solutions I wanna do in my own industry, from hearing from someone that's in a totally different industry,

Tim Cholvat: (40:11)
Cross industry. Yep.

Todd James: (40:12)
You change it.

Tim Cholvat: (40:12)
Yep.

Todd James: (40:13)
The other thing, network, man, this is going to be a lot of people with a lot of different backgrounds. Talk to each other.

Tim Cholvat: (40:19)
Yep. And, uh, well, thank you very much for your time today. I wish we could go on for another hour.

Todd James: (40:23)
Hey, this has been a pleasure and I'm looking forward to the event, and it's great to be here at the University of Cincinnati today.

Grant Freking: (40:29)
My thanks to Tim Cholvat and Todd James for taking over this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. Remember, the 2025 Analytics Summit will be held Tuesday, May 6th at the Sharonville Convention Center. For more information, visit business.uc.edu/analytics-summit. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. In this episode, I'm joined by Sophia Schwerin and Adam Al-Nammari, two soon to be Lindner graduates. Sophia and Adam are here to reflect on their time at uc, share their biggest takeaways, favorite memories, and how Lindner has shaped their career paths. Plus, we'll get a glimpse into what's next for them as they step into a world beyond Lindner and uc. Sophia and Adam, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Adam Al-Nammari: (00:34)
Thank You. Thank you.

Sophia Schwerin: (00:35)
Yeah, thank you so much.

Grant Freking: (00:37)
Let's explore your backgrounds. I, we've just met a couple minutes ago. Let's get to know you guys a little bit. Sophia, I'll start with you. How did you end up at Lindner?

Sophia Schwerin: (00:44)
Um, so I'm from Cincinnati. I live five minute drive away, so I've always knew I wanted to go to uc and um, just the business college really stuck out to me with, um, the co-op and all the opportunities here. And my brother already went here. So it was kind of just a plan to always go to Lindner and I study international business, um, management and, uh, business law.

Grant Freking: (01:09)
Okay. So you didn't take much convincing when we were sending out recruitment materials to you when you were in high school?

Sophia Schwerin: (01:13)
No, my parents met at uc. All three of my grandparents went to uc, so I I, there's nowhere else I would've gone.

Grant Freking: (01:21)
. Okay. Okay. Good to know. Adam, I think you might have taken a little more convincing you from, you're from Boston, right?

Adam Al-Nammari: (01:25)
Yeah, I'm from Boston. Uh, the town of Marlboro, Massachusetts. Uh, my dad went to college here back in like 98. He played football.

Grant Freking: (01:31)
Okay.

Adam Al-Nammari: (01:31)
And my sister left a year before me and I was just in my academic advisor's room in, uh, in high school and I was like, Hey, I'm apply to uc, let's see if I get in. At the time it was kind of like a reach for me during high school. Visited my sister in Ohio, it's two in the morning. I checked my email and I just see the confetti and I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna uc. So it was, it was a last second decision, but it was a great decision and now I'm here.

Grant Freking: (01:54)
Awesome. Awesome. So fast forward three years in your case, Adam, four years in your case, Sophia, you guys are graduating. How are we feeling?

Adam Al-Nammari: (02:04)
I'm feeling great. It's a lot of stress off my shoulders. I've been taking 18 credits since I got to Lindner and uh, a transition student from Blue Ash. So I've been taking 18 credits since there and it's unreal feeling doing it in three years. It's an accomplishment that I'm kind of proud of myself and I definitely gotta give my, uh, flowers to Gavin Mitchell for definitely helping me out there. Couldn't have done it without 'em, but I'm super excited to get this thing rolling.

Grant Freking: (02:27)
Yeah. Gavin Mitchell, one of our esteemed academic advisors are, are you, you you had an extra year,

Sophia Schwerin: (02:33)
But Yeah, I mean, it went just as fast.

Grant Freking: (02:34)
I'm sure.

Sophia Schwerin: (02:35)
I, I kind of started in 2021, so it was still kind of Covid and I think that might have sped it up, but it was, I think it was way faster than, um, high school and um,

Grant Freking: (02:48)
Yeah. And it's, it's crazy how fast it does go by.

Sophia Schwerin: (02:50)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:50)
When like, you really enjoy your experience. I mean, you, your path was kind of laid off for you. You had the familial connection. Right. And you, it seems like you, you wanted to study business too, I'm sure when you came into Lindner.

Sophia Schwerin: (03:00)
Yeah, I started with the same major my whole path. I just added different two minors and a certificate, so I knew where I was going the whole time.

Grant Freking: (03:10)
and you guys got everything set up for, for your family coming in for, I mean, your family, Sophia Doesn does have to come very far, but Adam, do you got family coming in?

Adam Al-Nammari: (03:16)
Yeah, I have eight tickets. Uh, my mom, my dad, my sister's here already and my friend coming from Boston, it's gonna be fun. Uh, I got some uncles here as well, so the whole family's coming. It's gonna be nice.

Grant Freking: (03:27)
Have to negotiate with any of your fellow students or for like, extra graduation tickets or do you get what you needed?

Adam Al-Nammari: (03:31)
I got what I needed 'cause my sister has eight and I requested a plus two, so I think I'm perfect.

Grant Freking: (03:36)
Right on. Right on. Well, let's talk about, let's go through your experiences here at Lindner. Um, Sophia, I'll start with you. So what are some of the highlights that stick out to you? Could be events, could be courses you had, um, maybe influential professors and mentors. What sort of sticks out? So I know it's hard to encompass that to like four years into a couple sentences, but what, what sticks out to you?

Sophia Schwerin: (03:56)
Um, I think the connections I made in Lindner with my professors and like other colleagues going to different, um, um, degrees and pathways. Like, um, one professor, I do a lot of work with Daniel Peat. Um, I've had him for a bunch of classes and now I'm working with research with him and just learning a lot of knowledgeable things. Um, I think I was able to publish with him and I think that's something on my resume that I would not have had if I did not go to Lindner. And I think just the connections are really, really important.

Grant Freking: (04:32)
Yeah, absolutely. An undergraduate student with a research publication is definitely, definitely a really cool accomplishment. Is that something you were interested in? Um, maybe when I'm, I'm curious about the research aspect of it. Did you think about getting research published like early on in your college, even before college or that's something just happened as you got to know? Uh, professor Peat?

Sophia Schwerin: (04:50)
Um, it wasn't really in the front of my mind. My mom is a chemist.

Grant Freking: (04:54)
Okay.

Sophia Schwerin: (04:54)
So she does a lot of research and for, I think it was BA 3080, we did like, um, or it was management. We did, um, a report about like what, um, future career we wanted.

Grant Freking: (05:07)
Mm-hmm .

Sophia Schwerin: (05:08)
And I kind of wrote about like research and development on the business sector and, um, Dr. Peat reached out to me and he was like, Hey, I think I wanna do this case study. Do you wanna do it with me? And then that's how I ended up here.

Grant Freking: (05:21)
Awesome. Awesome. Adam, what sticks out to you during your time here?

Adam Al-Nammari: (05:23)
When it comes to Lindner, there's a lot of professors that are just amazing. I had Professor Nicole Sims for my career success class. You know, it's a one credit class, not too many students think about it as, you know, it's something crazy. But the connection I built, you know, the resumes, the LinkedIn that you make in that class, even for her to write me a letter of recommendation for law school or for grad school in general, it's just amazing the connections I've, I've made here all the way from Dr. Albert Klein to Dr. Rodney Swope. And even with my pace leading, uh, uh, role, I got going on right now. Now, yeah, this is my first semester doing it. But my learning community, I have a great group of students that work super hard. We did our project today, I was telling you, uh, bright and early this morning.

Grant Freking: (06:05)
mm-hmm .

Adam Al-Nammari: (06:05)
But it's just a great role giving back to the community, giving what you got when you first came here and just, it's a cycle and it's, it's just amazing.

Grant Freking: (06:13)
What are a couple things you two wish you would've known as as freshman? Adam, I'll, I'll start with you. I'll put you on the spot. What are a couple things you wish you would've known? Things that would've maybe enhanced your experience as as a first year student?

Adam Al-Nammari: (06:25)
Great question. So, one thing I I think that's very misunderstood is a LinkedIn connection isn't a connection. Meaning just because you connect with someone on LinkedIn doesn't mean they're willing to do something for you.

Grant Freking: (06:38)
It's what you make of it, right?

Adam Al-Nammari: (06:39)
It's what you make of it. Maybe going to office hours with professors or maybe just meeting with them outta class or et cetera and just getting to know them. 'cause they, they are willing to run a mile for you if you're willing to do the same. So that's one thing I wish I learned and I did learn eventually. It's like, meet with these people after class, get to know them. They are here to help you and they want to see you succeed. So that's one thing I would tell, uh, freshman Adam is get to know them outside of class.

Grant Freking: (07:06)
Yep. They're here to help Sophia have that. Yeah.

Sophia Schwerin: (07:08)
Um, it's kind of building off of that, but like, there's so many different clubs and opportunities and I know like with Lindner women in business, we have different biweekly events and they have professionals talking to you and just making those connections and maybe spending like five minutes after the meeting, introducing yourself, saying hello and trying to connect with that person. Not just, oh, I went to this meeting, I learned something. That's it.

Grant Freking: (07:34)
Right. Now, both of you are very involved students. How do you, Sophia I'll go back to you. How do you balance your workload as, as you know, the academic years coming to a close, you're almost done having to do this, but how did you sort of find success at balancing your, your club involvement, your academic involvement, and anything else you had going on?

Sophia Schwerin: (07:50)
Um, I took mostly in-person classes, but I always had like a few online just so I had more time. And then I work in the Lindner undergraduate programs office and during, as a student worker, I had some extra time to do my homework and I prioritize things during those times that I was able to do more outside of like nine to eight to five.

Grant Freking: (08:15)
Sure. Adam

Adam Al-Nammari: (08:17)
One thing I realized that really worked for me, just a little background, uh, economics major with a legals, uh, studies certificate, what my legal studies class, it's a lot of group work and sometimes with economics you're working in groups as well, maybe for presenting. And it's having a good group with great communication. I really realize communication has really helped me get my stuff done with taking 18 credits, with maybe doing internships, communication and setting a schedule for yourself. 'cause there's no way I could have got this done if our group didn't communicate.

Grant Freking: (08:47)
Yeah.

Adam Al-Nammari: (08:47)
Or if anything came down and, you know, everyone just went ghost. So I would say putting time aside for your group, maybe to meet weekly, like what I'm doing in my capstone class right now. And it really works. It's a great game plan that never fails.

Grant Freking: (09:01)
Awesome. Yeah, the group work is tricky. If, if no one kind of steps up and sort of gets everyone a little bit more organized. I wanna transition to Sophia, I'll go back to you. Your experiential learning ex, um, experiences. So co-ops, internships, maybe study away or study abroad trips. What did you do during your time here at Lindner and what was most impactful to you?

Sophia Schwerin: (09:21)
Yeah, so I have done four short-term study abroads.

Grant Freking: (09:24)
Wow.

Sophia Schwerin: (09:24)
At Lindner. I'm an international business, so I wanted to take advantage of the opportunities.

Grant Freking: (09:30)
Makes sense.

Sophia Schwerin: (09:31)
So I did the Croatia, um, South Africa, United Arab Emirates, and I'm currently in the Columbia study abroad. So it was making use of those, um, new learnings. And with all those study abroads, it was kind of making connections in the country. And some of them, we work with students there, so you learn a lot about the different cultures or meeting businesses over there. So I think using that was really helpful in my development over the past four years. And then I also did a fellowship in Germany, which was a study abroad co-op, um, the Ruhr fellowship. And that really allowed me to grow by, um, working for a German firm. And I was able to go in meetings in German in the German language.

Grant Freking: (10:20)
mm-hmm .

Sophia Schwerin: (10:21)
And develop marketing stuff for that. So I think just all the different opportunities I was able to get at Lindner really helped me develop over the past four years.

Grant Freking: (10:30)
And I think betting these experiences will help, you know, when a future, uh, possible employer comes, comes at you and asks your questions about, you know, sort of crucible moments or, you know, times when you are maybe out of your comfort zone. You have this study abroad experiences to sort of draw on even in a different language to come real prepared to answer questions like that.

Sophia Schwerin: (10:48)
Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (10:48)
Do you feel like you'll, you'll be at the ready to answer those questions?

Sophia Schwerin: (10:52)
I think so. I, I try to go to like every continent just to get like kind of a background understanding and know. I think obviously every country's different. You kind of have a general culture setting with each one and I think I have a general knowledge to help in the future if I, if needed.

Grant Freking: (11:13)
Adam, what about your standout experiential learning experiences here at Lindner?

Adam Al-Nammari: (11:16)
I've had a couple internships. Uh, my first one was at Creche Law Office in Mason, Ohio. Um, got that through a family friend of course, and I got to know him through past experiences. And honestly it was a shadowing program and it's really like, you know, freshman year it's like, okay, this is, this is what I'm gonna be doing. And like maybe like six, seven years.

Grant Freking: (11:37)
mm-hmm .

Adam Al-Nammari: (11:37)
If I go to law school, pass the bar, et cetera. But, uh, had a also internship operations management at Amazon. That was interesting. A huge company. A huge team. Like maybe 60, 70 employees, but it's

Grant Freking: (11:51)
So two completely different experiences,

Adam Al-Nammari: (11:53)
Two completely different experiences at Amazon. Not wearing a, a tie and a suit or.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
mm-hmm .

Adam Al-Nammari: (11:59)
But it was, it was amazing because it's like, okay, that legal internship is like working in a small group and the Amazon internship's, like I'm working in a huge group, so it's like, okay, like this is like, I'm really getting both worlds right now. Complete opposite, but it was, it was amazing. Definitely helped me with my team dynamics.

Grant Freking: (12:15)
Yeah. And getting a sense of how different departments work and sort of sort of the office politics a little bit and how Yeah. A little bit of taste of that professional environment.

Adam Al-Nammari: (12:23)
Yeah, exactly.

Grant Freking: (12:24)
Adam, how about any advice for current and prospective Lindner students to get the most out of their experience here in this building and even outside of its walls?

Adam Al-Nammari: (12:32)
One thing I would say is you definitely gotta spread your wings. I know a lot of students, and when they're in high school, a lot of teachers, there's a stigma. It's like, oh, you're gonna be by yourself. It's like you're all by yourself. You're not gonna have anyone. It's just you. I really disagree with that.

Grant Freking: (12:46)
There's a community here.

Adam Al-Nammari: (12:47)
There's a community here. And I feel like there's, if you put yourself out there, you're gonna make those connections. One thing I wish my high school teachers told me was like, Hey, it's like if you get involved, like you're gonna be busy 24/7, it's gonna be something completely different than what we told you. Because just being a PACE leader, or even be, uh, talking to my career coach, Weston career advisor, Gavin, it's like, it's completely different than what I was told. And I would definitely tell people to spread your wings, maybe join clubs, maybe pick up an elective where it's something you wanna study. And so like, get the feel of it and see if you wanna make that major switch. Or even doing a, a pre-business administration, take different classes and pick what major you want to do. I feel like there's no rush. I feel like everyone thinks there's, there's a rush on them.

Grant Freking: (13:34)
Mm-hmm .

Adam Al-Nammari: (13:35)
Hey, you have to graduate, you gotta go get a job. I feel like if you just slow down, you know, graduate in four years, but do different classes. Test what you really like. That's one thing I would tell people.

Grant Freking: (13:46)
All right. So spread your wings and maybe consider graduating in four years instead of three years. Right?

Adam Al-Nammari: (13:51)
. Yeah. You can say that.

Grant Freking: (13:52)
Sophia, what about you?

Sophia Schwerin: (13:54)
Um, I would kind of say the same thing with like reaching out. I know a lot of people are scared about going to their academic advisor or, um, career coach, but they, they're your resources and they're there for a reason and it's,

Grant Freking: (14:08)
It's literally their job. .

Sophia Schwerin: (14:09)
Yeah, it's their job and you need to reach out. And one thing I kind of did towards the end of my career at Lindner is in certain classes I started sitting in different spots. So I would.

Grant Freking: (14:21)
Oh, interesting.

Sophia Schwerin: (14:21)
Like, talk to new students. And I thought that was maybe like a good idea. Maybe the start in the beginning of your college career. 'cause you don't know anyone when you start, you're starting from new you maybe no one from your high school's there.

Grant Freking: (14:35)
Right.

Sophia Schwerin: (14:35)
And if you are sitting in different spots, you talk with different people, you're getting the new connections. And I think with Lindner it's all about connections, building your connections. And that's one way

Grant Freking: (14:46)
It's great advice. And my thanks to Sophia Schwerin and Adam Al-Nammari for joining me today on Bearcats Mean Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five star review for Bearcats Mean business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:01)
Straight lines are an anomaly in higher education. The road less traveled, marked by twists and turns is the norm for students. Such as the manner in which many students find their way to Lindner, too. Students from a range of backgrounds, locations, and stages in their lives turn to Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:15)
The same could be said of my guest today. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at the Carl Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. Joining me today is Dr. Ryan Gaffney. A three time, yes. Three time Lindner graduate, who is now a professor at the Owen Graduate School of Management at Vanderbilt University. Ryan, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Ryan Gaffney: (00:42)
Yeah, thanks, grant. Uh, happy to be here. Uh, you know, if, if you would've told me, you know, the 18-year-old version of myself, uh, would've ended up with three degrees all from, you know, Lindner, uh, I, I thought you would be, you know, trolling me. I, that's just beyond my wildest imagination.

Grant Freking: (00:58)
Rightfully so. I think, yeah,

Ryan Gaffney: (01:01)
. Yeah, it's crazy. I, I had no idea what professors did outside of teaching, to be honest. Mm-hmm . For a while. Uh, I even thought I was gonna major in, in something totally different outside of business. Uh, I, I was taking a lot of, uh, theoretical physics classes. Uh, it turns out that those are, are really hard and, um, you know, there's no, there's no experiment. So we, we kind of just sit around and, and think and do math. Uh, so that wasn't really my, my, uh, cup of tea, if you will. Uh, but that all changed when I, I took a marketing class, um, and it, it completely like reframed how I thought about business. I, I wasn't a big business guy until I took this class called Consumer Behavior. I, I believe, uh, professor Frank Kardes was teaching it. And I, I remember on the first day we were talking about experiments and, you know, we were really diving into how do people think and how do people behave in, in the marketplace? And I'd never thought about business that way. And so, uh, that one class, you know, set me on a path I, I never saw coming. But, um, you know, looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. So that, that really got things in motion. And, uh, now I'm here. So, uh, happy to be here and, uh, excited about this, uh, this episode, this podcast.

Grant Freking: (02:09)
Well, thanks again for being here. It sounds like you're blending a little bit of the science background with, with your marketing studies there, but we'll get, we'll get to that. I wanna start at the beginning though. You're a first generation student, and you've got, as we've mentioned, three degrees from Lindner. You've got your BBA, your MS marketing, and your PhD, all in marketing again. So walk me through what you do, I guess, uh, now and then how, let's, let's go to the, the, the beginning and how you kind of got your start, which you sort of touched on at the beginning in, in your intro there, but let's expand a little bit more on that.

Ryan Gaffney: (02:40)
Yeah, yeah. I'm, uh, I'm a sucker for origin stories. Those are my, uh, my favorite Marvel movies, you know. Um, so this one will be a little less, uh, interesting. I think, uh, you know, there's no superheroes involved. But, uh, I did start, uh,

Grant Freking: (02:54)
.

Ryan Gaffney: (02:54)
I, I did start at UC in, in the fall of 2013. Uh, I, I went to, uh, high school over at, uh, Sycamore High School, um, over on the east side there. Um, and like a lot of students, I was, I was figuring out things, uh, as I went. I, I, uh, you know, I was a first generation student. Neither of my, neither of my parents had gone to a university or had college degree, so I honestly, I relied a lot on the resources that UC had to offer in, and later Lindner. Um, but yeah, real quick, shout out to my first gen students, uh, listening now, uh, . It, it's tough, you know, not really knowing what's, uh, in the path, uh, in front of you, but

Grant Freking: (03:32)
Absolutely. Yep.

Ryan Gaffney: (03:33)
But that, you know, that's one of the reasons why Lindner and, and UC is so special. I mean, they, they really helped me kind of guide me down, uh, which paths were available to me as a, uh, someone that was interested in marketing. Um, but anyway, I, I'm deviating a little bit. I, I'll go back to my, to the origin story, uh, . But, uh, when I, uh, after 2014, I transferred into, um, marketing, uh, the marketing major transferred into Lindner. And, uh, that eventually led me to, uh, conduct research in consumer behavior. Uh, for those that are familiar with it. Uh, this is the science of marketing and, uh, really like how people like you and me grant think about, uh, buying and making decisions and navigating uncertainty, um, and, and that sort of stuff. Um, but yeah, one thing led to another. I I ended up staying at UC for my master's in marketing, uh, graduating in 2017. Uh, during that time, I worked in the behavioral lab and spent time in what was, uh, at the time the brand new 3D printing lab at Lindner. That, that was with professor, uh, Elliott Manzon. Uh, great, great professor. Uh, if you're listening to this now and you're, you're a student, uh, re recommend, uh, taking his class. It's a lot of fun.

Grant Freking: (04:45)
Yeah. Elliot Elliott's great. A lot of fun classes from him.

Ryan Gaffney: (04:48)
Yeah. And, and generally, uh, you know, very empathetic guy. You know, he offers a lot of knowledge, a lot of wisdom. Um, yeah. So, uh, after my master's, I, I decided to pursue my, uh, PhD. Uh, I, I studied under, uh, professor Frank Kardes, which, uh, yes, is, is the first marking class I took that I talked about before. Uh, he, he was teaching consumer behavior in undergrad, and I decided I would study consumer behavior with him, um, as I pursued my, uh, PhD. Uh, I also had guidance from other professors like, uh, Bob Wyer, uh, Josh Clarkson, uh, amongst a few others. Um, I graduated in 2021, and, uh, I headed to Vanderbilt, um, at the Owen Graduate School of Management. Uh, that's where I am today. Uh, here I conduct consumer behavior research and teach marketing courses like, uh, advertising and experiential learning. Um, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Both my research and my approach to teaching are, are rooted in what I learned during my time at Lindner. I can't say this enough. I mean, UC isn't just a place with opportunities. It's a place where students, you know, make, make things happen. I, I know that sounds incredibly cliche, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (05:56)
But it's a, sometimes those are true, right?

Ryan Gaffney: (05:59)
. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, what, what I really appreciated about UC was were all the opportunities that were available to me. And, uh, I, I think that is so, so unique, um, for undergraduate program. Um, you know, they don't just put you on a track and then expect you to graduate, you know, checking off all these boxes, right? There are so many different opportunities. There's so many different resources, and, um, you know, you combine that with the grittiness of your students who are motivated to, you know, go and, and get everything that they can. Um, I, I think that's what makes UC special. I mean, I, I read the other day that I, uh, y'all have the, the most unicorns in the country, right? Uh, the, the most, uh, funded entrepreneurship ventures and, and a lot of these things. And I, I, I credit that to a lot, uh, the student body as well as the, uh, you know, the, the building, you know, the Lindner, the, the dean, the professors, so on and so forth.

Grant Freking: (06:51)
Ryan, you're, you're sort of Lindner life cycle as I kind of like to coin it, uh, is really fascinating to me. And I appreciate you kind of walk walking listeners through your journey there, which is lengthy. You, we were talking off air beforehand about how you, you had the experience of, of both buildings, right? You were in the old Lindner Hall, the new Lindner hall. You, you signed a beam that is now, uh, keeping this one of the beams, keeping this building upright. So that's, it's such a cool, a cool story.

Grant Freking: (07:17)
And let, let's touch a little bit more on, as you say, the origin, uh, story. I'm, I'm interested in your sort of aha moment and your, your original consumer behavior course with Professor Kardes. That seems to not, seems to definitely altered the course of your academic career. Let's dive a little bit more into that. 'cause I think lots of students have that have that moment where they kind of, maybe the switch flips. I know for me, I, it happened to me in high school when I decided I wanted to study journalism when I was 16. But some students, it takes a little longer than that, and they, and they come to them in college like it did, like it did for you.

Ryan Gaffney: (07:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I, I want to, you know, preface this with, uh, undergraduate college, especially the first couple years that, I mean, that's the time to explore. And honestly, for me, the first couple of semesters were finding out what I didn't like to do. Right. And, uh, you know, I thought the idea of physics was really cool. Uh, the math got really hard. And you know what, I, I wasn't great at memorizing formulas that that wasn't, uh, something that I was particularly gifted at. Um, however, I, I love the idea of, uh, discovery of, of experimentation of, you know, kind of the, the sciencey kind of nature of things and how to think about science. And so, um, I, I took a business course, uh, my, my father's in sales. And so I, I thought, you know, uh, why not give it a shot?

Ryan Gaffney: (08:38)
And, uh, you know, so I, I, I remember the first day of class, I, I don't know, I, you know, the listeners now, if they've taken a, a class or course with Frank Kardes, they, they already know this, but Frank teaches from a very, very scientific perspective, right? So we, we will go over experiments, right? And he, he will go into detail. I mean, that, that is his jam. Uh, he's a, a, uh, you know, he's kind of legendary within the, the, uh, academic, uh, research, uh, field. And so I, I remember the first day we were talking about experiments, and I was like, I did not think about business from a scientific perspective, right? To me, business was about, you know, talking to other people and persuasion and, and these kind of things. And, and then all of a sudden, you know, I have this professor who's breaking it down, like, you know, I, I saw in the physics department, and I was like, oh, this really resonates with me. And I, I think that actually that aha moment, I, I think that's more common than, uh, maybe we, we give credit to, right? I mean, it happened to you for journalism, um, you know, in high school, which I, you know, I'm envious of, but 'cause it took me a little later, uh, .

Grant Freking: (09:46)
Yeah.

Ryan Gaffney: (09:47)
But, you know, uh,

Grant Freking: (09:51)
But you just, you decided, you, yeah. You decided you wanted research, but sort of in a different way. So still sort of the science background of what you originally kind of wanted, but just a different spin on it right? In inside the business school.

Ryan Gaffney: (10:03)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I guess I, I never realized that business could also mean the study of people and how we behave. And, um, that, that was something that I, I mean, that, that gripped me. And I, I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I remember I kept bothering Professor Kardes, so I apologize for that if he's listening now, uh, . But I was so , I was so interested in it. I read that textbook, uh, you know, from cover to cover. And, uh, you know, eventually I, I studied, uh, under him, uh, when I was pursuing my PhD. So I, I think, uh, you know, I, I made up for bothering him my, my freshman year. But, um, yeah, I mean, I, I think that can be used as an example for, for other students that are maybe uncertain about what they wanna do. Um, you know, go ahead and, and ask professors for the courses that you appreciate.

Ryan Gaffney: (10:52)
You know, kind of what, what is the journey? What is the pathway to, um, you know, work and kind of that area, right? Whether that's digital marketing, um, I know Professor Mantel taught digital marketing when I left, and, and she, um, was excellent at, um, kind of getting students in a position to, uh, achieve a, a digital marketing career. Uh, that's just one example. But, um, you know, definitely reach out to your professors. They, they love talking to students, and especially students that ask about how to, you know, pursue a career in the thing that they teach. Um, as a professor myself, I, I, I have to say, when a, when a student asks me about, you know, the subject that I teach, I mean, sometimes I, I talk too much, right? I, I think you'll find that a lot of these professors are so passionate about this stuff that, you know, you may get too much advice.

Grant Freking: (11:41)
Right. I like the trial and error approach, though. 'cause that's something we teach the students here at Lindner about co-op, right? It's not only about figuring out what you want to do, it's about figuring out what you don't want to do. And sort of, hopefully it's not a big long process of elimination for you, but hopefully, and hopefully you land on something soon, but it, it does help rule out, I think, you know, and maybe narrow down your, your eventual job search. Ryan, I wanna transition a little bit to some outside of the classroom experiences. You had some study abroad experiences that had, that you, uh, that you, you were pretty passionate about. And walk me through how those impacted you. How do you sort of landed on the few experiences you had and, and your overall, um, experience with your experiences outside of the classroom here at Lindner?

Ryan Gaffney: (12:27)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just background here, you know, first generation student haven't really left Ohio very much. Um, and then, uh, I, I remember I, I met, uh, professor Armstrong, Lee Armstrong, um, and, and she was running the, uh, the, uh, study abroad program at, at UC. I, I think I went to an information session and I, I remember, you know, her just talking about, um, anyone, any student is, is eligible for, uh, the study abroads. Um, and here's how you do it. And I, you know, this is another moment where you, you see Lindner, they really provide these opportunities, um, for those that that won it. And I, I thought this was, this would be incredible to go to the other side of the globe. Are you kidding me? Uh, that, that would be why.

Grant Freking: (13:17)
Yeah, of course.

Ryan Gaffney: (13:17)
Uh, yeah. And, and so I, I decided to, uh, sign up for, um, this study abroad in China.

Ryan Gaffney: (13:25)
Uh, I, I was interested in how, how factories work and in global business in general. This was around the time that I decided to add, uh, international business to my, to my major. And so I, I remember talking to Professor Seiple about it. She, she was all on board. Um, and she, she really helped me kind of prepare for that, that study abroad. And then I, I have to tell you what, what we learned on that study abroad was very important. We toured factories, uh, like P&G and, um, I think that was in the Sichuan province, right? So we, we actually got to go inside the factories and see how things are made, which is really cool. But honestly, you know, the, the most I got out of that was just seeing how people in other places in the world, you know, behave and, and interact. It, it was really eye-opening for me and really kind of changed my mindset on how the world works. And so I, I highly, highly recommend, you know, to, to the undergraduate students listening now, um, you know, to check those opportunities out. You know, maybe they're not for you, but, um, you know, at least, you know, give them a a a once over, right. Um,

Grant Freking: (14:30)
Yeah. Some real world applications of international business on those trips. And so that was one for you. Then another one was a, a trip with the, uh, very famous professor here at Lindner, uh, Chuck Matthews, who is also famous for the, the, the second trip that you went on, which I think he makes yearly. Yearly now. And that's to the, uh, United Arab Emirates.

Ryan Gaffney: (14:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Pro Professor Matthews, uh, just a great guy, uh, . Um, you know, he, he's really committed to, uh, helping you, you know, learn while you're studying abroad or studying abroad. Um, I, I remember one of the most, uh, you know, at the time was kind of frustrating, but, uh, to be honest, but, uh, valuable things looking back, was that we had to keep a journal, right? So every day we'd have to write about our experiences, and I honestly, I still have that journal today. And, uh, so I, I highly recommend taking a journal with you when, if you study abroad or, um, even if you, if you venture into new areas, uh, in, in the world. But, um, but yeah, that, that study abroad and, uh, the UAE was, was really, really cool. Really, really eye-opening. I mean, uh, you may notice the theme between my, uh, both of my study abroads, that they're not kind of your, your typical, um, you know, trip to, uh, you know, maybe Europe or, or, uh, a different place in America. I, I was really interested in how people not like me, uh, kind of operate in society. And, and so it was really eye-opening from that perspective. Um, you know, a culture that, you know, doesn't drink for example, or doesn't drink alcohol, I should, maybe I should be more specific. They drink water, don't worry. Mm-hmm

Grant Freking: (16:09)
. Yes, they hydrate, uh,

Ryan Gaffney: (16:11)
. Maybe I should drink some more water.

Grant Freking: (16:13)
Yeah. And you also note that you, uh, you, you told me beforehand that how this, uh, this co this the co-op with, with Chuck and at the UAE, uh, helped you very significantly with your first co-op and, um, a little bit of context around market research analysis for some, for some startups.

Ryan Gaffney: (16:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, Chuck is, uh, or Professor Matthews, uh, is, uh, you know, really into entrepreneurship. I, I know that that's kind of his, his jam over there. And so that was what this whole study abroad was about, and it was really interesting to see how this startup community works and the similarities between how it works in America and, uh, and the UAE. Um, but this, this knowledge that I, I learned from, uh, this study abroad and, and from Professor Matthews, uh, really helped me get a job, uh, at, at a, uh, for my first co-op where I helped, uh, Cincinnati based startups with their market research, uh, needs. And so I did a lot of market penetration analyses. Uh, you know, I, I was getting startup, uh, companies onto QVC, uh, . So you probably, the listener don't know what that is, but your parents do, um,

Grant Freking: (17:27)
Or if, or if maybe if they watch Hacks on HBO, they might know, so

Ryan Gaffney: (17:30)
Oh, yeah, good point. Good point. Um, but yeah, so that really helped me gain experience in, in a industry, in an area that, um, you know, it's hard to get into. And, and so that really helped me with my co-op, and honestly, that, that helped me as I, uh, started to, uh, push forward in, in that, uh, area. You know, I, that wasn't my first, or that wasn't my last, uh, job in, uh, kind of the startup world.

Grant Freking: (17:56)
Mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (17:57)
Um, I, I kept working through my master's, um, at, at different companies. I, I believe I was at Luxotica, uh, at the time for my master's. Um, but yeah, all, all around startups. At, at the time, Luxotica was onboarding a, a new company, so they, they wanted the startup folk. Anyway, I digress. I know, uh, . But, uh, the, the things I, I learned from, uh, that, that study abroad really helped me, um, you know, kind of learn about this area, learned that I liked this area and led to my first job. Sure.

Grant Freking: (18:29)
Yeah. Let's transition into your master's studies. Um, I know you, you graduated your undergrad early, which, uh, I think may have been a, a different notion back, back when, when you did it, but I, I know currently more and more students are doing this because they're, they're entering Lindner with more and more college credit, right? So they're graduating early and they're often, uh, just graduating early to get jobs, or they're also moving into a master's program or an MBA program here at Lindner. So walk me through that thought process from you and the ability to sort of customize your education and your master's, uh, master's of marketing program.

Ryan Gaffney: (19:06)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That, that is one thing that I, I really appreciate about Lindner itself is, you know, once again, there's not one single track that, you know, the, the college puts you on, and it expects you to check off the boxes. I, for me, what was best, uh, was to, um, you know, graduate early, so I can transition to that master's program as, uh, as you just mentioned. And eventually my PhD. Um, I, I didn't come in with a lot of, uh, AP credit. I, I don't think I came in with any AP credit, actually. Uh, but I, I tested out of intro to marketing, uh, . I, I don't know if you can still do that. I think that was in like a testing phase. Um, however, uh, you know, one thing that Lindner did let me do is I, I just took 18 credit hours a semester, and, uh, once I realized that consumer behavior was kind of my passion was, was something I wanted to pursue going forward, um, you know, I kind of buckled down and just knocked out those, those courses. And, uh, that led me to the master's program, um, that, that led me to, uh, just a, a plethora of opportunities. Um, the amount of job offers and, and networking opportunities in the Master's program are, are really, uh, astounding. Um, I, I think a lot of master's programs, uh, at least in marketing, could learn a thing or two from how Cincinnati has it set up. So, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (20:24)
Yeah. Then you, you also, I know, spent a great deal amount of time in the consumer marketing insights lab, some sort of different sort of, uh, subsets within that too.

Ryan Gaffney: (20:36)
Absolutely. Yeah. I, uh, so I, I worked in the, the 3D printing lab, uh, at the time. Uh, I worked in the behavioral lab as well, um. And in this behavioral lab, I, I had the role of research assistant, and my job there was to, uh, help conduct those studies. And so for the first time in my life, I got to see, you know, these studies, I learned so much about in this consumer behavior class, so much that I learned about, you know, from these other professors. Um, and I, I don't know how many Lindner students know this, but the, the marketing department at Lindner is, you know, worldwide famous. Um, they're, uh, absolute rock stars over there. And so to see their research, um, in progress, which is invaluable to me, something and an opportunity that most undergrads do not have. So, uh, I, I recommend if you're, if you really enjoy your consumer behavior class, um, you know, maybe reach out to see if you know a research assistant is kind of the next step for you. Um, I, I loved my time there and, and ultimately that, that led to me deciding to, um, quit my job. Uh, my parents weren't thrilled about that, but quit my job, and, uh, enroll in the, uh, the PhD, uh, program at, at Cincinnati, at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (21:50)
Yeah. You, uh, you had two degrees and you decided why not? Let's go for one more. So, uh, decided to get, get, spend even more time as you, with you, as you mentioned, some, some world famous researchers in marketing and get, get your PhD in marketing.

Ryan Gaffney: (22:05)
Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it, it was, it was kind of a, a thrilling experience. Uh, once again, you know, as a, as a first generation student, I, I didn't know how PhD programs worked. I didn't know how Master's program worked. You know, looking back, maybe I compensated a little too much for, uh, being a first gen, I, I felt like I had to get all the degree degrees now. Right?

Grant Freking: (22:28)
Right, yeah. Yeah. There's plenty more for you to get if you, if you're still interested. So.

Ryan Gaffney: (22:32)
Yeah, I, I think my parents would be even more upset, uh, . No, but, uh, you know, there, there's great programs there. And, and for my PhD, I, I studied consumer behavior. Uh, I, I benefited from learning from some of these, these great researchers. Um, at the time, uh, we had Bob Wyer, uh, in the marketing department, and I, I know that Dean, she, she's famous for, uh, Dean Lewis. She's famous for this paradox mindset, right? And, which is, you know, really cool research. I believe that research was published in JPSP. It's a really fancy scientific journal, so, you know, very prestigious. Um, Bob Wyer, uh, was the one that kind of discovered mindsets, and so he was a huge deal as well. Uh, I think at one point he was evaluated as one of the top a hundred scientists in the world. Um, and so, uh, it was really neat just to see how people like Bob talk, right. People, how, how people like Frank, uh, interact with him. And, um, so that, that led me to conducting my own research. Uh, I, I ended up giving a, uh, I don't know if you know this, I, I ended up giving a, uh, TEDx talk at, um, it did, uh, for the University of Cincinnati, um, that I think that was ran by Professor Matthews, now that I think about it. He, he kinda weaves in and out of this, this story, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (23:47)
He's, he's everywhere, man.

Ryan Gaffney: (23:48)
Yeah, yeah. All at once. Um, yeah, so I, I gave this, this, uh, TEDx talk about, uh, my research on omission neglect. And, um, I'm, I'm honestly, I'm still researching that. So I'm coming out with a, uh, a chapter to be published in August on the same topic. Um, so, uh, yeah, that, that was kind of my time at, at, in the PhD program. Uh, that was another four years of my life. If, if you're a listener and you're trying to add up how many years I spent at, at Cincinnati, it's too many. Uh, but, uh,

Grant Freking: (24:21)
Well, and part of the, yeah. Part of the PhD program is also you're making the transition from student to instructor, right? And so, uh, I know there was a couple other professors that we haven't mentioned yet that had an influence on you, that a couple other marketing professors where you were, you served as a TAs for.

Ryan Gaffney: (24:41)
Absolutely. Um, I, there's two professors that really changed how I thought about teaching. And, uh, the, the first one was, uh, Jane Sojka. Uh, I, I was her ta and she, she was teaching Introduction to Marketing, and we're talking these large classes, right? I mean, auditorium sized classes. And it, it just astounded me how she taught. And she always knew her student's name, and there's probably 400 different students in this course, and she always knew the student's name. And she always thought about, you know, these questions or concerns that students had from the student's perspective, and just the amount of like, active empathy that she had for these students. Um, and how how motivated she was for these students to succeed really impacted how I teach even now. And so, you know, even even here at Vanderbilt, I, I think to myself, you know, maybe one day I can be half as good a as Professor Sojka. I mean, she's really a, a rockstar, uh, all, all-star, um, professor. And so, um, she, she really had a, a large impact on, on how I teach and, and really has shaped, um, my teaching program here at, here at Vanderbilt. Um, yeah, so shout out, shout out Jane Sojka. She's, she's listening now. But the, uh, the other professor that I I worked with as a TA was, uh, James Kellaris. Uh, I'm, I'm not sure. He just retired.

Grant Freking: (26:04)
Yes, yes. Unfortunately. So, but yes, he had a long, great career.

Ryan Gaffney: (26:07)
Yeah. Yeah. And he, he approached it from a, a very different angle, and so he also had just a ton of students. Um, but he was really good at being efficient with his assignments. He never assigned busy work. Um, every, everything he said or assigned all had purpose. And so it was incredibly efficient. And, uh, what what was really neat was with that efficiency, he had so much more time, um, to really, you know, put himself in the shoes of the students or, um, you know, really, you know, give back in terms of teaching or individual, uh, mentorship, uh, to, to the students. And, and so the, just this efficiency of, um, disseminating knowledge was just, you know, unparalleled for James. He, he is the best at it, and I, I think most people would agree with that. So, um, both of these professors, um, are people that I look up to still today, um, when it, when it comes to teaching and, um, have, you know, entirely shaped how I teach here at, at Vanderbilt. So, uh, like you said, um, going from student to instructor, that's what the PhD program's all about. And these two had a, a massive impact when it on me, when it comes to, um, how I teach today.

Grant Freking: (27:20)
So. Sure. Now that, that we've completed your, your long winding academic journey, I want to go from a little bit of like a a thousand foot view and maybe some general advice, tips and tricks from your years of accumulated wisdom for both current Lindner students and perhaps perspective let students about college in general, navigating Lindner, and just kind of getting through school in general.

Ryan Gaffney: (27:43)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so just starting from a kind of a university perspective, and I'll kind of narrow down to, to Lindner here. Um, you know, I, I should start by saying, uh, my, my nephew has just enrolled into the University of Cincinnati, and so, uh, it's kind of a full circle moment for me. Uh, you know, he's, he's experiencing his first year and, you know, there's a lot of, uh, similarities, a lot of overlap. And, and so, um, a lot of this advice is fresh, uh, is what I'm saying. Uh, but the, the first thing that I would recommend, um, you know, if you're a first year or, you know, soon to be first year, right? Um, definitely look at, uh, clubs, uh, or, or different hobbies, right? Um, that are available at the University of Cincinnati or available within Lindner. I always recommend to choose one professional club and one, uh, like passion club, right?

Ryan Gaffney: (28:37)
For, for example, I'll give an example for me. Uh, I, I joined the American Marketing Association for my professional club. That was something that I was interested in. It gave me the ability to network. Um, I'm, I'm very introverted, believe it or not. Um, however, uh, you know, joining these kind of clubs, being around these people, uh, it allows you to naturally kind of connect with individuals. And I, I still keep in touch with people, um, that I met from a MA today. Um, the other club that I was a part of was Colleges Against Cancer. Um, I was really big into, um, you know, raising money for the American Cancer Society. Uh, you know, that that was the, I spent my three years of undergrad, uh, you know, completely enthralled into this, this club, this hobby. And, uh, eventually that led to, uh, tobacco free uc.

Ryan Gaffney: (29:28)
I don't know if that's still a thing over there, but, uh, you know, that that club, uh, when I was president, authored that bill. Um, and, and so that was a, a big moment for us. We raised over a hundred thousand dollars, you know, so that, that was something that, um, really helped me outside of, you know, my, my career path, my career pursuits. And I, I think that's important because, you know, you'll have bad days when it comes to classes. You'll have bad days when it comes to networking or your career path, but when you can.

Grant Freking: (29:57)
mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (29:57)
You know, kind of put that to the side, you know, for, you know, a day or, you know, for a meeting, um, I, I think that gives you enough, uh, breathing room to, you know, kind of pick up, you know, where you left off. Um, but yeah, so I, I don't know if that makes sense. I, I feel like maybe

Grant Freking: (30:14)
No, that's, it's all, it's all very cogent, uh, and potent advice, I think, and, and it's pertinent. And I think another point, I think to wrap up, uh, our conversation is sort of the impact and reiterating the impact of your experiential alerting opportunities. Um, many of which you've mentioned the study abroad, the lab work, the co-ops and internships. The other ones maybe that we probably didn't even get to, um, because at the end of the day, I think college is about building the foundation for your career. So tying a bow on it, what, what sort of closing statement can you offer to the impact of the experiential learning opportunities that Lindner can offer and how they've, how yours and impacted you?

Ryan Gaffney: (30:56)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, that's a great question. Uh, at, at the end of the day, you know, college is about building the foundation for your career. I mean, that's, that's why we go to college, right? Um, however, it is also the best time to explore and try something new. And I, I really believe that, um, you may never have this much freedom again to experiment with what comes next. Um, you know, for me, I can't sign up for a study abroad, um, that, you know, I've.

Grant Freking: (31:23)
mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (31:23)
too many obligations, too many responsibilities at home. I I'm sure it's the same way for you Grant as well. You, uh, I'm sure Lindner has you doing a lot over there. You, you do a lot for the students. Um, so you have this freedom, um, use it, right? Why not make the most of it? So, you know, if, if you're interested in, uh, operations management, go see what the hubbub is about in Asia and how they deal with manufacturing.

Ryan Gaffney: (31:48)
You're interested in international business and, and how startups work, um, you know, try your, you know, talk to Professor Matthews. I, I think you said he's still doing that, that study abroad. Talk to him and see if that study abroad makes sense. And the really neat thing is, if it does make sense, Lindner has a way of making it happen for you, right? If it's something you wanna do, Lindner can help you get there. And I, I really appreciate that that's something that's special at, uh, universities, uh, especially for undergrads. That definitely does not happen at other universities. Um, you know, lastly, I, I know a lot of listeners are probably not thinking about their PhD, Grant. I I don't know if, if that's true, but, um, ,

Ryan Gaffney: (32:32)
Um, if, if you are interested in research, you know, try your hand at it, uh, reach out to the, the behavioral lab, uh, I'm sure that they're hiring. Um, they're always interested in bringing on research assistants. Um, and, you know, last but not least, uh, you know, take that class you're unsure about. You know, for me it was marketing. I, I didn't even think I wanted to go into business, but I took that marketing course. Um, I found out that like, oh, this is the thing I wanna do for the rest of my life, and it brought me here. So you never, you never know what might end up shaping your future. For me, it was that class. Um, for you. It could be, you know, a journalism class, you know, uh.

Grant Freking: (33:13)
And you could grow up just to be like me. Yeah. .

Ryan Gaffney: (33:16)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (33:18)
All right. Well, my thanks to Ryan Gaffney for joining me today on Bearcats Mean Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
The Grau Center for Professional Selling, which sits within the Lindner College of Business Marketing Department, combines classroom teaching with experiential learning to create unique sales-focused academic and real world learning opportunities to all students. We develop graduates who are extremely prepared for a successful sales career.

Grant Freking: (00:16)
One of those opportunities, the Spring Sales Expo is quickly approaching, slated for Wednesday, March 5th, at Tangeman University Center's Great Hall on the campus of the University of Cincinnati. The Spring Sales Expo is an opportunity for students to engage with employers about co-op, internship and full-time and part-time openings. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing, the Carl H. Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. Joining me today to talk about the Spring Sales Expo and all things sales at Lindner are Jennifer Barlow, the Grau Center for Professional Sellings executive director, and Sophie Legue, a fourth-year student at Lindner studying marketing and professional selling. Jennifer and Sophie, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Jennifer Barlow: (00:59)
Thank You. Happy to be here.

Grant Freking: (01:01)
Glad to have you. So sales center, I'm gonna talk to the executive director first. Jen, tell me all about the sales center. What's the who, what's the where, what's the when, why there's plenty of stuff going on right now. What do the people need to know?

Jennifer Barlow: (01:12)
Absolutely. So we've been around since about 2011. Uh, the great thing about our program is that we are drawing students from across campus. So not just business students are taking our classes, but we've got students coming from A&S, from DAAP and Engineering. So it makes the classroom conversations really diverse and interesting when you have an international business students sitting next to a ballet major with a civil engineering student. Um, it just really makes for great conversations.

Grant Freking: (01:39)
Yeah. Truly interdisciplinary as we'd like to say in the academic world around here.

Jennifer Barlow: (01:43)
There you go. Absolutely. Yes.

Grant Freking: (01:45)
And so what are, and so what are some of the opportunities, I just read one off in the intro. Do students have to get involved and get critical career experience?

Jennifer Barlow: (01:52)
Yeah, so we do, I work with several, uh, student organizations. Uh, one is our sales leadership club, um, and then our elite club, our varsity sales team, that's the competitive sales team that is traveling to various collegiate competitions. And then our newly launched medical sales club. Uh, 'cause there's an interest from students to get into medical device sales or pharmaceutical sales. So really working with a lot of those students on, uh, bringing companies into the classroom or corporate partners into the classroom. Working on a lot of different activities if it's their elevator pitch, how to have a proper handshake, how to have, make eye contact with somebody. Um, also teaching students how to have very good posture.

Grant Freking: (02:30)
right.

Jennifer Barlow: (02:30)
And confident posture when they're talking with, with strangers and talking with different employers.

Grant Freking: (02:35)
And so they take all these elements and go to career opportunities. Perhaps Sophie, I don't, I think you've already got a job lined up, so maybe you won't be attending the spring sales Expo coming up March 5th. What do people need to know about that?

Jennifer Barlow: (02:46)
Absolutely. So for students, I say please register on handshake ahead of time so I can print your name tags. So the companies that are coming are from a wide variety of industries.

Grant Freking: (02:54)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (02:54)
So we have, you know, financial industries, uh, we have packaging industries that are coming as well as logistics and transportation. So really just wanna expose students to the various industries that are there, a lot of different opportunities. And what I tell the students are that when the, when you're meeting with that employer or that campus recruiter, keep in mind that they're also hiring for other opportunities.

Grant Freking: (03:15)
That's right.

Jennifer Barlow: (03:16)
So if somebody is a digital marketing student or if they are a graphic designer, you know, have that conversation with the employer to see what else might be available if they're not necessarily wanting to go a sales route.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
And Sophie, for students who might be interested in going to the sales expo, what's the experience like as someone who's gone to a couple and plans to go to the one coming up in a couple of weeks?

Sophie Legue: (03:38)
Yeah, so it's a really great experience. I mean, I remember going to my first one and honestly, when you're kind of younger, you don't take it as seriously. At least for me, I was like, I'm a freshman, I have plenty of time. But I would encourage, even if you're a freshman, sophomore, going to really try and make connections, network, building your network earlier than later is gonna be very beneficial when you're, I know internships are now required for the incoming freshmen.

Grant Freking: (04:04)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (04:05)
So it's great to get your foot in the door, even if they're only looking for sophomores, juniors, getting your foot in the door, making your name known to some of these companies, like early on, is gonna help you in the long run. So I say just make the most of your experience, try and make it to every single company if you can, and be open to different opportunities and different companies because there's a lot out there and um, some really great people to meet. So.

Grant Freking: (04:27)
Sure. And I imagine it also helps break down some of the barriers and of the fear factor that maybe goes along to talking with strangers, but strangers who are also could be offering you a job.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:36)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (04:36)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:38)
Absolutely. And I will say with the sales expo, I limit the number of companies that are there, so I'll cap it at about 50.

Grant Freking: (04:43)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:43)
Because I don't want it to be too overwhelming for students to walk into the great hall and, you know, you hear that buzz, but all that excitement.

Grant Freking: (04:51)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:51)
Uh, but it's also from only from one to 4:00 PM and so it's a very tight timeframe, which I think benefits the students as well as the recruiters because people aren't exhausted. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:01)
, right. Yeah. Yeah. There's only so much talking everyone can do.

Jennifer Barlow: (05:04)
Exactly. Yes.

Grant Freking: (05:04)
Three hours sounds good. Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (05:05)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (05:05)
Sophie, let's talk a little bit about the why for how you ended up involved with the sales center and just sales academically in general. So walk me through your academic path and how you got the Lindner and then found your way into the, the, the sales realm.

Sophie Legue: (05:18)
Yeah, absolutely. So actually my older sister went to the University of Cincinnati and I visited a few times and I was like, this is a place I could see myself going to school. So I decided to come here. And, you know, business has been in the family. My parents both work in a business setting, so it's kind of what I've known. And I was like, you know what? Marketing is a very broad, um, major. So I was like, you know what, let's just start with this and see where it goes. And, um, my dad actually is kind of like my mentor. He kind of has been helping me figure out my career path. And when I was talking to him about what I wanted to do, uh, he was like, you know, sales, I have some buddies that are in sales that really enjoy it.

Sophie Legue: (05:56)
'cause you know, I'm a people person. I enjoy talking to people. And, um, I didn't really wanna be sitting behind a computer on an Excel sheet for my career, so,

Grant Freking: (06:03)
yep. It's not for everyone.

Sophie Legue: (06:04)
Um, exactly. So, uh, you know, I, I started thinking about sales and then I declared a sales minor and professional selling minor. And, um, after that, that was around my sophomore year. And then I heard about the varsity sales team and, you know, I was a little unsure, but I decided to go to one of the practices and I ended up loving it. I mean, uh, junior year my, um, second semester I got to, um, compete in the Toledo competition, which I was actually chosen in as an alternate. And the alternate basically is just a backup competitor if the competitors aren't able to compete. But they, I was put in a raffle and I was chosen to compete.

Sophie Legue: (06:44)
And, um, it was the best experience I've had honestly in college.

Grant Freking: (06:47)
Wow.

Sophie Legue: (06:47)
Um, it, I learned a lot from it. I learned, you know, going into that setting is really scary, being with someone that actually works for the company you're selling for. So they really know the product. And I'm sitting here like, you know, I've, I've never done this before, so it was really scary and I didn't have a ton of time to prepare 'cause you know, I wasn't planning on competing. So,

Grant Freking: (07:09)
yeah.

Sophie Legue: (07:09)
Um, but it ended up being kind of like the switch for me when I knew that sales is what I wanna do. I'm like, I could really envision myself doing this as a career. And so the more I, I was on the sales team, I enjoyed it, got very involved. And I competed last semester, um, the spring or fall semester of my senior year.

Grant Freking: (07:29)
Mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (07:30)
And I competed in Wisconsin and that was a really great competition as well. Uh, we were selling Hormel ribbon pepperonis, which was very interesting and fun. Um, and

Jennifer Barlow: (07:41)
It's quite the road trip too.

Sophie Legue: (07:41)
Yes.

Jennifer Barlow: (07:41)
You have to drive up to Wisconsin for that.

Sophie Legue: (07:43)
Yes, it was, it was honestly fun. Lots of practice, lots of time to practice. So, um, that was really great. And then, uh, at the end of the semester I competed in the internal competition and I actually won my room, which is one of my goals that I had set for myself. And, uh, I was named the new student coach. So my last semester, uh, I am the new student coach for the sales team. So, um, just through all that experience, I realized that I'm really interested in sales and kind of what I want my career to be. So yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (08:14)
So a lot of, I mean, I haven't met one person that says I'm going to college to get into sales. You kind of fall into it.

Grant Freking: (08:19)
Sure. Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (08:19)
And so I always encourage students to take one of the professional selling classes because you're always selling yourself. The life skills that the students are learning here is something that you'll just take forever, no matter what business setting you're in, no matter what position you're gonna be holding, you're always gonna be, um, working with salespeople really. Right.

Grant Freking: (08:35)
Yeah, exactly. And I was, my follow up to your question was going to be if her path is similar, where students obviously, like you said, don't necessarily come in wanting to do sales, and then it's sort of like they get introduced to the sales club and the, or the sales team and then they're hooked. Maybe not quite as hooked as Sophie. 'cause she's, you might have to drag her quick and screaming away from this varsity sales team when she graduates . But is that, is that something that's comes up, there's like a similar path where students get involved that way?

Jennifer Barlow: (08:59)
Yes, so it's interesting because we've had quite a number of students that have joined their senior year.

Grant Freking: (09:03)
mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (09:04)
And they're like, dang, I wish I would've known about this sooner. And so we're always trying to get the messaging out about the varsity sales team. It is a lot of work. Uh, they meet weekly for about an hour and a half on Monday evenings in our sales lab. Um, and they're always practicing. And so it's, it's a lot of work, but they also have a lot of fun. And the friendships that they make is, is forever really. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:24)
Mm-hmm . And Sophie, let's transition to some of your experiential learning experience of talking co-ops, internships that you've had. Tell me, tell me about those and, and I think you've already got a full-time job lined up as, as far as I understand.

Sophie Legue: (09:34)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
So let's hear about that too.

Sophie Legue: (09:36)
Yeah, absolutely. So my first internship was with a logistics company and, um, I got a lot of experience, you know, talking to customers and well, potential customers.

Grant Freking: (09:45)
Sure.

Sophie Legue: (09:45)
And just some negotiating skills. So it was really interesting setting, being full time for the first time, being in an office setting. It was very new. I had never done anything like it. So it was a really great start and a really good first, um, first step internship Yeah. To get my foot in the door. So, um, after that, you know, I actually, my current internship, I've been here, this is my second semester, mill craft paper company. I'm kind of in a customer service role right now. I'm getting to work with customers and take orders, learn the computer system, a new CRM system. And it's, um, we have customers coming in every day. I really enjoy the relationship building aspect.

Sophie Legue: (10:23)
Some of the customers that come in, I know a little bit about their life and just different things like that. So something I've really enjoyed. Um, and I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to do for full time. And, uh, I actually know a recruiter from the sales team.

Grant Freking: (10:39)
Okay.

Sophie Legue: (10:39)
Her name is Alicia Flora, and she's a recruiter for Gartner. And I have met her through many events networking with the varsity sales team. And I kind of just reached out to her. I was like, Hey, I'm interested in potentially interviewing with Gartner. And so right after that she set me up on the interview process and I had a phone call with her and I went through the interview process and I actually got the job, which is great, down in, uh, Fort Myers, Florida.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:03)
Awesome.

Grant Freking: (11:03)
Oh wow.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:05)
I know.

Sophie Legue: (11:05)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (11:05)
It'd be nicest time of year.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:06)
mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (11:07)
Yes, exactly. So I'm very excited about that. Um, it's kind of, I wouldn't say a dream company, but it was definitely the kind of company I was looking for and kind of shooting towards.

Grant Freking: (11:16)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (11:17)
So I think I'll have a good long future with them. And I've heard a lot of great things about it. So I'm very thankful to the varsity sales team for all the networking opportunities because I might have not had this opportunity without, without it. So, um, I think that's, the varsity sales team is also really great for networking and meeting, meeting different companies.

Grant Freking: (11:35)
Evidently. Well, congratulations.

Sophie Legue: (11:35)
Thank you.

Grant Freking: (11:36)
And students, yeah. The networking works, especially for the varsity sales team involvement, right?

Jennifer Barlow: (11:41)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (11:41)
What about your sales classes? I wanna hear more about the academic side of that. Could you get, provide more explanation on that? I know that we have a popular one I'm thinking of, but I'm interested in hearing your full full perspective on that.

Sophie Legue: (11:51)
Yeah, absolutely. So the first sales class I've ever taken was, uh, with Dr. Sojka. It was one of my favorite classes I've taken in college so far. She just teaches confidence, teaches you how to sell, like, you know, being confident, the posture, everything that Jennifer was talking about, earlier, it's just a really great first class and it, it really gets you excited about sales. And Dr. Sojka teaches you don't have to be going into sales to learn about sales. It's important, like Jennifer was saying, you're always selling yourself. And, um, yeah. So that was the first class that I.

Grant Freking: (12:27)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (12:27)
I had taken. And then I took a strategic selling class, which we actually got to do a case study at the end of the semester and kind of sell, uh, whatever product or service we were doing. And that was, yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:39)
Yeah, another, another hands-on learning experience.

Sophie Legue: (12:40)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (12:40)
is what I'm gathering. Yeah.

Sophie Legue: (12:42)
Yes, exactly. And that was a really great experience as well. And then now I'm currently in an insight based selling class.

Grant Freking: (12:48)
Okay.

Sophie Legue: (12:48)
Which is, um, kinda like the sales team. We do, uh, role plays, sales call, role plays. So it's a very different class, but I really enjoy it. 'cause, you know, I, I love doing role plays and practicing the selling experience. So, uh, doing that for a class is, it's challenging 'cause it is a little bit different than what we do on the sales team, but it's, it's a lot of fun and it's a new experience and you really deep dive into the real experience of being in a job and learning different selling situations. So, um, all of these classes have been really amazing and honestly they're, I know it's cheesy, but it, they're my favorite classes I've taken, so.

Grant Freking: (13:26)
mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (13:26)
That's not cheesy at all. , that's what we like to hear.

Grant Freking: (13:28)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (13:28)
I'll say the insight based selling class is the most advanced class that we have, and the intention of that is to be doing all these sales simulations. And so they'll be doing like three or four throughout the semester.

Grant Freking: (13:39)
Okay.

Jennifer Barlow: (13:39)
Um, and most of the students that are taking that class will be going into a sales role upon graduation. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (13:45)
Interesting. Mm-hmm . Now, how do all of this, how does all of this hands-on experiential learning opportunities translate to the new sales lab we have up in the building that I think is being dedicated the same day of the sales expo? So you set yourself up for quite the busy day there?

Jennifer Barlow: (13:57)
Absolutely. Um, we're very excited about that. Um, yeah, so the sales lab is on the third floor. Uh, we have 10 small rooms, 10 like breakout rooms.

Grant Freking: (14:05)
Mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (14:06)
Six of those have cameras in there, and we're able to record a lot of these different activities that the students are participating in. So the varsity sales team is there every Monday night. Sometimes they're recording their role plays, preparing for Toledo or the National Collegiate Sales Competition. Um, other times it's a class that's in there. And so we're recording the sales simulations and elevator pitch, possibly mock interviews. The students are able to see themselves on video, good or bad. Um, it is scary, I understand that. But they learn a lot from when they see themselves, um, the feedback how many times you say, um, yeah,

Grant Freking: (14:39)
Yeah. The, yeah. The tape doesn't lie in those scenarios. So it provides very clear, I think examples of, you know, it's like me listening back to this when, when I need to edit out a podcast episode. Right. It's just very clear of like what you need to improve on so there's no shying away from it.

Jennifer Barlow: (14:51)
Absolutely. And it's just a really great way for the students to improve their skills.

Grant Freking: (14:55)
Right. Okay. We'll end with this. We got a recruitment plug. We need more varsity sales team members. 'cause some of the key members, like, it's like Sophie are graduating out. So Sophie, why should underclassmen or even prospective students who may be listening to this podcast consider and, uh, joining the varsity sales team, even if they don't necessarily want to go into a sales related employment field post-graduation?

Sophie Legue: (15:17)
Yeah. So I think that younger students, freshmen, sophomores, should get involved early. That's something I do regret a little bit, not getting involved sooner. So I think even if it's something that you're like, I don't know too much about this, joining the varsity sales team would be a great option. First of all, you can meet a lot of people get really good experience. Um, and, you know, maybe you start out just competing in the internal competition just here at UC, but then if you stay on the team a little bit longer, you can go and compete at Toledo or the national competitions that we have. So you can really see your progression and your growth a lot more. And, you know, a lot of people only join their junior year. Like me, I, I joined my junior year and I'm like, I wish I would've known about it a little bit sooner. Your progression that you'll see joining sooner is really gonna pay off in the long run. And, um, also I think I learned a lot about interview skills through the sales team as well. So I think,

Grant Freking: (16:11)
And those are applicable to all majors no matter what you're graduating with.

Sophie Legue: (16:14)
Exactly.

Jennifer Barlow: (16:14)
Mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (16:14)
Exactly. So, you know, being in that professional setting with an executive person sitting across from you, it's a scary moment. Interviews are scary, but I really did learn a lot of great skills from, uh, the sales team and just being able to talk to professionals and, and that kind of thing. So, um, you can just get a lot. There's so much that you get out of the varsity sales team and, uh, I, I highly encourage young students to get involved.

Jennifer Barlow: (16:38)
Well, and the other thing with varsity sales team and with the various activities that we have in the sales center, I'm always bringing our corporate partners and employers into the classroom to work with all these activities, work with the students constantly. And so our, the employers are having a great face time with the students and the students are getting more comfortable in speaking with recruiters and, and developing that confidence. And with the Varsity sales team, you're gonna keep seeing those same people again and again as they're getting more involved, um, with our students.

Grant Freking: (17:06)
My thanks to Jennifer and Sophie for joining me today on Bearcats Mean Business. Remember, the Spring Sales Expo will be held Wednesday, March 5th, in Tangeman University Center's Great Hall on the campus of University Cincinnati. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. In true sales fashion, I'm gonna let Jennifer have the last word before we sign off.

Jennifer Barlow: (17:31)
Absolutely. I would encourage everybody to take a sales class, take that professional selling class, learn some of these skills, um, it's life skills and you're always selling yourself. And also join the varsity sales team.

Sophie Legue: (17:43)
Yes,

Jennifer Barlow: (17:44)


Sophie Legue: (17:44)
.

Grant Freking: (17:44)
Thanks again for being here. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Learning is a lifelong pursuit. Whether you're seeking to level up your skills, pick up a credential or pivot into a new industry, Lindner's graduate program offerings can help you achieve your goals. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. My guests today will shed light on the graduate student experience at Lindner, why they selected Lindner for the next phase of their academic journey, their personal and professional backgrounds, and much more. Let's meet our guests. Lucas Lodato is pursuing a Master's in accounting while Bob Clark is seeking a master's in finance and a graduate certificate in real estate. Lucas and Bob, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Lucas Lodato: (00:41)
How you doing?

Grant Freking: (00:42)
I'm doing great. How are you, Bob?

Bob Clark: (00:43)
Good, good. How are you?

Grant Freking: (00:44)
I'm doing great. I appreciate both of you again for joining me. Now let's get a handle on your respective backgrounds and how you ended up at Lindner. Bob, I'll start with you. You accumulated a great deal of private industry experience before deciding to return to school. Why, why'd you decide to come back?

Bob Clark: (00:59)
Well, yeah, I do have, uh, quite a bit of previous work experience. So I just turned 40, um, my wife when about the same time that we decided to have start a family, um, decided to go to medical school and just, uh, recently she was accepted to a surgery fellowship at UC.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
Awesome.

Bob Clark: (01:23)
And that event kind of gave me the opportunity to, I guess, put my head above water and think, you know, what do I wanna do for the next 20 years? You know, everything had been focused on, you know, surviving, you know, raising the kids, getting dinner ready, making sure that, you know, she could do all her studying and prepare for exams. Um, balancing that with my work, once she matched into a surgery fellowship, I felt like, you know, are we gonna move? Like, what's, what's the best next direction for me? I also have a background in physics and mathematics. So while I knew I loved business, um, I was seeking some sort of a way to pull more of that natural economist back into my day-to-day work life. Ultimately, I just decided to take a sabbatical year and, uh, pursue an MS in finance, sort of to give myself the time to think about how to do that.

Grant Freking: (02:25)
Certainly a non-traditional pathway. We're glad you're here. Lucas, your journey is a bit different as well. After graduating with your BBA in accounting from Lindner, you went straight into the Master's in Accounting program. What was the rationale behind that decision?

Lucas Lodato: (02:37)
Well, mainly it was because KPMG, who I'm, or they're sort of waiting for me, so they, they require you to have 150 credit hours to start as a, as a audit associate. And I didn't really know about the whole 150 credit hour thing until it was sort of too late to either do a double major or anything like that while I was an undergrad. And, you know, once, once I looked further towards it, it was like, okay, well the master's program will help you a lot with getting ready for the CPA exam and just furthering education for things that'll look good on your resume. Um, and you know, I loved it here in undergrad. I had no complaints about the program and, you know, I wanted to stick around for a little while longer. Uh, I got, uh, my girlfriend is a year younger than me. She goes to Ohio University. So like, it all sort of worked out well where we, you know, that way we're all, we're both kind of done with school at the same time now.

Grant Freking: (03:26)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (03:26)
And we could sort of move forward with what we wanna do as a team, you know, as a duo together in the same time span. So it works out, you know, I, I like it here. I didn't want to leave . I wanted one more go around.

Grant Freking: (03:40)
All right. Again, we have, we appreciate you sticking around for another year too, and hopefully, and this, this will be a boon to your professional career as well. And, uh, Lucas, I'll stick with you. Walk me through how you navigate day-to-day life as a graduate student so we can sort of paint a picture for listeners on and potential future students on what it's like to be enrolled in a master's program at Lindner.

Lucas Lodato: (03:58)
Yeah, I mean, it's no different than being an undergrad, really. Um, for me personally, I'm also a graduate assistant, so I have two days a week where I'm in the accounting lab. Uh, it's a great resource for anybody that's looking for help. Um, it's actually something that I didn't really even know about before I became a grad student and started working down there. But, uh, you know, that gives me a lot of time whenever students aren't coming in to help me knock out other work that I have to do either, you know, schoolwork or work for my, um, for my faculty member. But, you know, it's just like any other program. If, you know, if you've gone through undergrad, you're gonna be fine with going through master's. It's just different classes, uh.

Grant Freking: (04:33)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (04:34)
You know, you gotta take 30 credit hours worth of classes, so, you know, you take 15 and 15 or, you know, 12 and 18, however you wanna do it. And it, it's really not too bad. There's a lot of options available, a lot of online, different specialty things. Um, it's, it's really similar to undergrad in my eyes.

Grant Freking: (04:52)
Sure. And Bob, aside from, uh, the children aspect of, of your existence, how is, uh, your day-to-day life as a graduate student, uh, at Lindner? And we spoke off air before we recorded about how you were thinking about doing online, but the tour of the building sort of convinced you to do in person here at Lindner?

Bob Clark: (05:09)
Yeah, I, uh, when I thought about taking a sabbatical to study, um, I looked at different finance programs online. I actually came here and met with the director who gave me a tour of the building. I was explaining earlier, and when I saw the building, I thought, um, like, I have to be here. Uh, this is gonna be a great place to learn. That was a fantastic decision. Um, I love the university environment. Having, you know, spent 10 plus years working out of school. For me, it was exciting just to be free to learn to pursue your thoughts and your curiosities really without constraint. To take the classes that you want to take to be able to, through the exposure to faculty members and all the sort of brilliant people that you find at a university to ask questions, to seek out mentorship, um, that was, that was like a huge draw to me.

Bob Clark: (06:07)
I felt like doing it online, of course you would get some of that, but, um, it, it's hard to replace an in-person experience. Um, as far as like, you know, graduate school, I think, uh, one thing's always stuck out to me. So I went to graduate school at Kelley uh, school of business at IU and my program director there, I, I went there like Lucas right out of undergrad. Um, I'll paraphrase, but essentially what he said to my cohort when we started was, you know, you guys have all been used to being the top student or getting the best grade, being prepared for every exam. And everyone around you, if you look around, has been in that same position. As you move through life, as you progress in your company, you'll only feel that pressure more and more and more. And so our job here, my job, is to sort of get you ready for the real world.

Bob Clark: (07:07)
And in the real world, there's always gonna be someone smarter. There's always gonna be people who are willing to work harder. There's gonna be others who are willing to sacrifice their friends or their family for their career. You'll have too much reading assigned to get it all done. You'll have too many exams to feel totally prepared, and you need to be able to figure out how you are gonna manage your time because when you go out and get a job at a great firm, no one's gonna do that for you. And so you're gonna start to learn how to do that, uh, right now. And I don't know if that's advice or it was just a nugget of wisdom, but, um, it's something that stayed with me for the rest of my life. And I think for some people maybe that creates stress. So graduate school, uh, like college I guess can be a stressful experience, but it's also an exciting experience, one where you feel like you really take on a lot of autonomy and at the end of the day you learn that only you can be held accountable for, you know, what you do and how you use your time.

Grant Freking: (08:15)
Sure. We always appreciate keeping it real, too. Lucas, I'll go back to you. How do you feel about how your master's degree program and accounting in your case is preparing you for the next phase of your career? What sort of real world experience is your program providing to you?

Lucas Lodato: (08:27)
Yeah, I think it's a lot of people teaching along the lines of the, the, the CPA exam. You know, obviously the CPA exam classes that you could take that's alongside with Becker and you can get that taken care of while you're in school. Uh, that was a big attraction to the program for me. It's just actually like forcing myself to study and be on the right track and get a grade for it. Um, and you know, a lot of the professors that are teaching master's programs are people who have been there and done that, you know, hold the credentials and, and can give you that sort of advice to, to get where you want to go. Um, you know, I was fortunate enough to have enough college credits coming outta high school, uh, where I could take a semester off in undergrad here and not be off track.

Lucas Lodato: (09:09)
Um, so I was able to do that internship with KPMG and they wanted to have me back. So, um, definitely do that as an accounting student. If you can, get as many internships in as you can, especially if you could do it during the busy season like I did, if you have enough credits where you could take a semester off, definitely do it. It's, it's a good thing to know as you're going through the rest of your schooling, like, what can I expect once I get out? Do I find a place that it, that I enjoy? Maybe you go into audit and you hate it, maybe you go into tax and you hate it. Right? There's a lot of options for you to go through with, with an accounting degree. Um, and so it's good that while you can find your way before you're more or less sort of stuck in it, you know, and you're, you're.

Grant Freking: (09:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (09:54)
In there full time and you don't have as much flexibility.

Grant Freking: (09:57)
Sure. An accounting co-op, an accounting internship during busy season puts the real, I think, in real world experience.

Lucas Lodato: (10:02)
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Bob Clark: (10:03)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:05)
Bob, what, what about you? What sort of a real world experience would you say you're getting through the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (10:11)
Um, you know, the part of the, what drew me to the finance curriculum was that it was, you know, there's a breadth of classes that you can take. Um, I was naturally interested in investments in portfolio management. I didn't really know how to tie that directly to my previous work experience. So I've worked building startups. I used to work at PricewaterhouseCoopers, um, and I've run and built a construction company over 10 years. But like I said earlier, I kind of have this mathematician, you know, inside of me. And I wanted to feel like, how can I do something more analytic, more quantitative? But that still leverages that experience. It took me a while, uh, but eventually I realized through taking my courses that I was really interested in alternative investments, and I discovered real estate as an investment asset class that would allow me to, you know, sort of leverage my experience in construction and marketing and business in general with, you know, what I had interest in finance, you know, analyzing and thinking about a deal so I could sort of, you know, whether it's new development or a value add transaction. I realized that real estate, you know, sort of provided me this opportunity to leverage everything I've done and couple it with some new found sort of finance skills.

Bob Clark: (11:34)
That's when, um, I decided to add the real estate certificate at Lindner. And so I feel like that has, you know, totally prepared me, you know, to move on. I think there are a number of roles that, you know, I can pursue now that I I, I either wouldn't have known were available to me, uh, or I wouldn't have even thought about.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
Sure.

Bob Clark: (11:58)
So I feel like it's really given me a very clear vision about what the opportunities are that I have in front of me.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Sure. Now, neither of you are native Cincinnatians. Bob, I'll start with you. How do you find living Cincinnati and the UC campus in general?

Bob Clark: (12:14)
Um, so for, for all the listeners, uh, I grew up in Indiana, so I'm a Hoosier. Um, I moved to Cincinnati, so close to Indianapolis. I spent a lot of time in Bloomington, lived in Indianapolis a couple of times. Um, I came to Cincinnati periodically growing up, mostly to watch Reds games. Um, had an uncle, still do, that lives here. Uh, but I always thought of Cincinnati, even when I worked at PWC and had clients here, I just thought of another city like Indianapolis or like Columbus. It wasn't till my wife and I with our kids moved here a few years ago, uh, that I realized that Cincinnati's a really unique place. Um, it's a older city and it's more of a federation of lots of little towns sort of clumped together into one city. Indianapolis and Columbus, they, they have their different, you know, areas, but they feel much more homogeneous. Cincinnati has a lot of personality and a lot of character, a lot of old buildings. You sort of get a sense as you drive through town that you're traveling through all these different, unique places. So to me, uh, that was something that surprised me and I really enjoyed, I think Cincinnati has a certain cosmopolitan feel, maybe if you want to call it that, that some of it's the cities that it's often compared to, in my experience, don't have. So, uh, that's been great. I, I love Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (13:45)
That's great. Yeah. As someone who grew up in the suburb of Cincinnati, I wasn't even aware of all the different character between the neighborhoods until I actually moved within city limits. And it is fascinating to get that picture and you can just almost tell just driving through the different neighborhoods, as you mentioned, Bob, of the different identities that each of the neighborhoods have. What about you, Lucas? What have you, what have you learned through your time here?

Lucas Lodato: (14:04)
Yeah, I, I, my family's originally from Long Island, New York. Then we moved to Cleveland for the majority of my childhood growing up. Uh, I lived on the west side of Cleveland in the suburbs. And then when came time for school to, for college, I visited a couple schools, didn't really, didn't really enjoy them. And then I came down here and I remember on my visit, like being able to like walk onto the football field. And that being like, that's really crazy to me. , like, how cool is that? Um, and so when I committed to come here, it wasn't, I didn't really know much about the city, you know, growing up, you're four hours away from it. Everybody in Cleveland says, oh, Cincinnati, it's just part of Kentucky, basically, you know, there's nothing down there. Uh, and then you actually move down here and you're on campus and you sort of broaden your horizons a little bit outside of Clifton in this area. And you realize like there's some really cool stuff around like that Cleveland doesn't have like. And I'm not like a Cleveland for life or like a lot of people from up there are, you know, I, I find my allegiance more towards New York anyway. 'cause it's where my, you know, my family all grew up.

Grant Freking: (15:12)
You are wearing a Yankee hat.

Lucas Lodato: (15:12)
I am wearing a Yankee hat today. Yeah. A big Yankee fan. Um, but I have merit, that's what a lot of people try to give me , you know, stuff for, for being a Yankee fan. But I'm like, I was born my, my birth certificates to the city of New York on it.

Grant Freking: (15:26)
But it appears you do have like, at least a soft spot now for Cincinnati, having moved here for a couple of years.

Lucas Lodato: (15:29)
Oh, absolutely. I'm not, I don't plan on leaving here. Uh, you know, I'd mentioned my girlfriend, she goes to Ohio University, and every time I go visit there, I'm like, there's nothing to do here. It's like, there's nothing wrong with Athens. I love it there, but like, whenever we we're here, it's like there's, we could do so many things. There's so much stuff around, and there's still a lot more to learn. I'm starting to get a little more comfortable with things inside the 275 loop. You know, I'm trying to.

Grant Freking: (15:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (15:55)
Sort of understand where everything's at, and I have a few ideas on where I wanna move after I'm graduated. But, um, you know, I'm excited to at least start my career here. And, um, yeah, I love it here. It's, it's a great place. I don't really plan on leaving unless if the wind takes us somewhere else, but.

Grant Freking: (16:12)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (16:12)
You know, I, I love it here. I don't plan on leaving.

Grant Freking: (16:15)
Sure. We'll close with some recommendations that each of you would give to students considering graduate school at Linder. And Lucas, I'll double up with you and say, what would you recommend to undergrad students since you have that experience as well, but also to graduate students, maybe specific, specifically wanting to pursue the MS accounting program.

Lucas Lodato: (16:32)
Yeah, I found it, you know, super helpful. Like, it, it's been an enjoyable time. It hasn't been like super crazy. You know, I had a lot of anxiety coming in, not knowing about like, how much are these graduate classes gonna really throw me for a loop here? I've, you know, I didn't get to take any undergrad or graduate classes while I was an undergrad. You know, I sort of traded that off for the internship a semester, which I don't regret. Um, but I didn't really know what to expect. Um, I didn't really know anybody coming in. I've made a lot of friends along the way now since we're all, you know, it's just a group of, you know, 10 to 15 of us.

Grant Freking: (17:08)
Yeah.

Lucas Lodato: (17:08)
All in the same sort of classes. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you're thinking about wanting to broaden your horizons, if you're thinking about wanting to, you know, give yourself that extra step. I know now with the CPA requirements in Ohio going down 120 starting next year, that, you know, the, the people like me who need to get to 150 but only graduate undergrad with 120 are sort of going away.

Lucas Lodato: (17:33)
But I would still highly recommend coming to the master's program. It's a, it's a great experience. There's a lot of actual specific, you know, you can indulge into a lot more like specific topics. Um,

Grant Freking: (17:47)
You customize your education.

Lucas Lodato: (17:48)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I, uh, I think it's a great experience. I don't, I don't have anything against it at all.

Grant Freking: (17:57)
Great. Bob, what about you, you, again, we've, we've sort of emphasized your sort of non-traditional background, but what about, I guess, stood out to you that made you wanna pick Lindner besides, I guess the, the proximity and, you know, uh, what advice would you give to students considering the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (18:15)
Um, I, I guess this would, would be relevant to students interested in MS Finance, but graduate school in general, um, having, having worked, um, what, what you realize when you leave school is that you leave the dozens or hundreds of faculty that you essentially have free access to as a student.

Grant Freking: (18:39)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (18:40)
Uh, you also feel like when you say study finance, whatever your degree track is, you feel like you're very specialized. And what you realize when you start working is that you don't really know what specialization is yet. Uh, in your work life, you start to work with a group of people who are very focused on like a small set of things within the universe of business. And when you're in school as an undergrad or a graduate student, you have the opportunity, sort of to echo what Lucas was saying, to really customize and to think broadly about what you want to do.

Bob Clark: (19:20)
So it's really a unique learning experience that you are not gonna get anywhere else. You know, you could learn a lot about, you know, fixed income at a bank or risk management working for somebody, but you're not gonna have the chance to sort of build a full view of, say, the financial industry, the full view of all the investment possibilities, um, at a firm that works in a niche or at a bank. You know, you're gonna have to go to grad school, uh, if you want to do that. Um, so I would say if you, if know, love that, if you love learning, if you're really curious, um, if you like to be in school, then I would say it's, it's great. Um, obviously like Lucas, if you have a very specific thing that you have to go to grad school, .

Grant Freking: (20:09)
mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:10)
To get, then you should, you should probably be wise and do that.

Grant Freking: (20:12)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:13)
Um, but yeah, I, I would just say, you know, grad school's a gift. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do and, uh, it should be taken advantage of, uh, by those who are interested in it.

Lucas Lodato: (20:25)
Yeah. And I, I think like, you should do it while you can, while it's fresh, like when you come outta undergrad, if you can. But also, I mean, I think Bob and I are really good examples of the two totally different, you know, sorts of students that are here. You know, a lot of my classes are sort of later evening or in the nighttime, you know, you have the once a week, three hour night classes, and you look around and you see a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life, you know, coming in and maybe they're just taking one or two classes, but it's like part of continuing professional education, or they're just trying to get their master's degree. But you see a lot of people that are coming in and doing it at night or that, that have a couple days a week where they can come in and take classes.

Lucas Lodato: (21:03)
And it actually, it really helps you like broaden your, your sort of contact portfolio there where you can meet a lot of people with backgrounds in industry.

Grant Freking: (21:13)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (21:14)
And start to get connections and, and, and, you know, your network grows that way. And I found that very interesting. Or it's not like, you know, when you're in undergrad, you're used to seeing classrooms of 150 people that are all in the same thing as you, especially in like the Lindner core classes. Whereas in grad school, I think the most people that I've had in one class so far is like 15 or 20 maybe for the, for the, um, capstone class so far. There's really not that many people. You can have a very personal experience with your faculty member in each of your classes. Um, and I found that very valuable, you know, to actually get to know these people and what they've done and hear their experience and actually get more of a, you know, tailored education towards you since there's so few people in each of your classes. It's been, it's been really cool.

Grant Freking: (22:05)
Excellent. My thanks to Lucas Lodato and Bob Clark for joining me today to shed light on the graduate student experience at the Lindner College of Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. His research has been published in many journals, including Sage Business Cases, the Journal of Organizational Behavior Education, the Journal of Small Business and Enterprise Development, and the Journal of Business Research. Now, in addition to his work at UC, Dan serves in the US Army Reserves as an adjunct instructor for the Command and General Staff Officer Course.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Vicki Buckley is a senior instructional designer at Lindner, a PhD student in educational studies at UC, and an adjunct instructor in UC's College of Education, Criminal Justice, Human Services and Information Technology, working with pre-service teachers. Vicki's professional and research interests include amplifying student voice through course design and creating vibrant communities and online courses. Welcome and take it away, Dan and Vicki.

Vicki Buckley: (00:56)
Thanks, Grant.

Dan Peat: (00:56)
Yeah, thanks.

Vicki Buckley: (00:57)
We're glad to be here.

Dan Peat: (00:59)
So let's just start with the basics of what is SOTL? What is the scholarship of teaching and learning? So it's a, you know, this is something that I've gotten into more and more. I took on the educator position back in 2020, so I really started to, get into this idea of pedagogy and andragogy and things like that. But it's a little bit more than that. So, Vicki.

Vicki Buckley: (01:21)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (01:22)
How, how would you describe SOTL as the, the education expert?

Vicki Buckley: (01:25)
Yeah, I've got a couple of different ways to explain it. So, SOTL is a form of inquiry around teaching and learning. It's usually around one's own classroom, and students, but, you know, you can partner with others, it could be cross-disciplinary, and it's, it's an outlet for new knowledge creation and also a place to learn new pedagogies to try out in the classroom. So, as an instructional designer, I reach to SOTL when I wanna try and figure out how to help a faculty member do something in a different way. The big thing is that it's, it's research and application. So it's, it's two sides of that. I have a fun quote from a SOTL adjacent book that I'm reading that I wanna share about SOTL. So this is a book from Jessamyn Newhouse, she's one of my faves. So she describes SOTL, in this way. So teaching offers us an infinite number of puzzles, problems and research questions. And an abundant SOTL offers us endless avenues for identifying, exploring, and discussing those questions and problems. So we notice things when we're teaching and we have these problems and puzzles, and SOTL gives us an opportunity to dig in, dive deep and kind of sort through them.

Dan Peat: (02:31)
Man, I felt every bit of that quote, .

Vicki Buckley: (02:33)
Yeah, Yeah. Absolutely.

Dan Peat: (02:34)
So I teach somewhere in the neighborhood of like 240 students any given semester. So it's, you know, it's always a challenge to, to, to figure out what are the problems, are they getting it? How do we get them to get it better?

Vicki Buckley: (02:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Peat: (02:45)
And then in addition to that, I've always got these adult learners, the army too, that, that are also interested in it. So I think we've got some experiences here too, of how we've worked together as instructional designer faculty and you know, how, how to coordinate on those. But, I think Vicki said it best when she said, trying to figure out a problem for a faculty member in the classroom is one avenue that it, that it comes up. Another avenue is the instructor has an idea and wants to, take it forward. And how do we align this with best practices when it comes to the, the learning objectives of the course and things like that.

Dan Peat: (03:25)
So I found this gee whiz neat article I want to use in class. How does that relate to the class? And, you know, I, we can walk through this with an example. So a few years ago when we went online for Covid, I had this great first day activity in business strategy. And, if you remember this one.

Vicki Buckley: (03:43)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (03:44)
It was having them, create a business using paper. So they're throwing paper at each other and building an industry out of it. And there's no way to mimic that online. So what I, I reached out to Vicki a few days before the class, and I think in the span of two days, we created a whole new exercise around creating crossword puzzles mm-hmm . And selling the crossword puzzles to different teams in the class. And I think I came with just an idea, right?

Vicki Buckley: (04:12)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (04:12)
That was, that was it. And, I, I still remember the very first thing you asked me was what were the learning objectives of the last activity?

Vicki Buckley: (04:20)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (04:20)
And then how do we build it out? So that's kind of how we, how we, approached that one in, in one of the classes. So, and, and this is the faculty side, but it's not just important for faculty. So, I mean, students are also a part of this too.

Vicki Buckley: (04:35)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (04:36)
And, I can honestly say it's kind of cool. I've published with several of my students.

Vicki Buckley: (04:40)
Oh, nice.

Dan Peat: (04:41)
Now at this point, I think we've got three or four publications with undergrad students, case studies, exercises, things like that. And there's also a student role in them providing it back to us too, of giving us feedback and helping us craft these.

Vicki Buckley: (04:58)
So, Dan, can you talk a little bit about your experience with SOTL and what it looks like comparative to, traditional education research, or non-business disciplines?

Dan Peat: (05:06)
Yeah. This has been, kind of an interesting one. so if I dig into different literature that are out there and different scholarships on there, some of the other ones may not always have this organizational focus.

Vicki Buckley: (05:18)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (05:18)
So the, the business side is always gonna come back to how is this improving in their organization? Or how are we teaching our students skills for their future working careers? Some other fields may be more focused on how do we make society better? Things like that.

Vicki Buckley: (05:34)
Mm. Yeah.

Dan Peat: (05:35)
But we, in the business school, we have to, we always have this focus of, we have to make our students better at business. And I can compare and contrast this a little bit with like the adult learners I work with, where trying to teach somebody leadership in the context of a military setting has a lot of crossover and similarities to business students, but it's not a one for one.

Vicki Buckley: (05:55)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (05:55)
And it's adjusting and always keeping that business focus in mind, kind of in the background. So, and we talked a little bit about how students aren't just the ones that are participating in it too. They're, they're a big part of the collaboration.

Vicki Buckley: (06:10)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (06:12)
And their feedback is kind of how we improve new teaching methods. This semester I'm trying out a debate in my, design thinking, ethics and inclusion classes. And part of that is, that's been asked for, for several years by my students.

Vicki Buckley: (06:26)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (06:26)
Yeah. They, they asked, we should do a debate on this. We should, you know, you have the structured reflection discussions we do, you should do a debate.

Vicki Buckley: (06:34)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (06:35)
And it's funny because when I was having 'em sign up for the presentations, the first class, the two weeks, I have debates, nobody signed up for those to the very end.

Vicki Buckley: (06:43)
Oh, geez.

Dan Peat: (06:43)
So, of course. but then when I was talking to 'em afterwards, they were really, really excited about it. And this is really how students can express their voice back to the instructors and instructional design. And again, that, that symbiotic relationship. I get my course evals and I can share them with instructional design. Hey, this is what I'm seeing. What can I do to improve going forward? So, I don't know that, that's kind of a question. So I've, I've come to you, I've come to, to Becky before, if I get a negative comment, Hey, this is not working in the class, how would you as instructional design help me kind of fix, like, this isn't working.

Vicki Buckley: (07:20)
Yeah. So there are many, many different ways. I think that's one of the beauties of SOTL in general, is like, there's not one linear path to teach well, to create an impactful learning experience. And honestly, sometimes like those negative comments from students, they're still learning.

Dan Peat: (07:36)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (07:37)
Even though they didn't enjoy the experience. Like, there's still some benefit there. So I've got two, two kind of thoughts on this. So sometimes it just comes down to making your, your pedagogy visible for students. So maybe you got that negative feedback or that comment because they didn't, the students didn't truly understand the purpose of why you did things a certain way. So it could be as simple as running the same activity or, or running, you know, your class the same way, but just framing it differently and, and letting students know, this is why I'm doing this, and this is the benefit to you.

Dan Peat: (08:13)
That's a good argument for sharing the learning objectives with the students.

Vicki Buckley: (08:16)
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. you know, and sometimes those learning objectives, are easy to breeze past.

Dan Peat: (08:23)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (08:23)
Because you think it's just like another thing. But really connecting those dots for students sometimes helps. The other thing is, I, I would say let's reach into the SOTL research and do some digging and see what other folks have been doing. 'cause again, that's that application piece. It's not just sharing what you did, but it's sharing it with the intent of helping someone else or helping other students or, or garnering feedback from your students so that somebody else can apply it in their own context. So that's probably where I would start. My, my favorite thing about being an instructional designer is kind of that hypothesis testing. So like, let's try something different.

Dan Peat: (08:57)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (08:57)
For that next semester. so that's always an option too. It's just like making little tweaks to see how we can nudge, the learning or student response in one way or another.

Dan Peat: (09:06)
Yeah. I'm a big fan of that, like, trying stuff up differently to see how it can be received differently as well.

Vicki Buckley: (09:10)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (09:11)
Yeah, and just keeping it in mind, the broader audience too. Like, there's a lot of stakeholders involved.

Vicki Buckley: (09:18)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (09:18)
And, you know, we don't want to ignore the business partners, the people that are hiring our students, or the people that are quite often paying a lot of money for our students to be here.

Vicki Buckley: (09:28)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (09:29)
So kind of what's the benefit to parents? What's the benefit to, to external businesses, and I'll, I'll kind of take that second question myself, but how do you see like a benefit to parents of students seeing the SOTL and the faculty doing SOTL?

Vicki Buckley: (09:44)
Yeah. I, I think it, it goes back to that reflection piece of SOTL. So with the scholarship of teaching and learning, the idea is that the instructor reflects on an experience and then they share and kind of close the loop. But I think that's, that's there for students too. We know students learn best when, when they have an opportunity to reflect on what they did and communicate that out. And I think that's something, hopefully, that our students are sharing with their families is, I, I did this thing. I did experiential learning this semester in my business course, and this is how it changed me as a student. Or like, this is how I'm thinking about my job at the rec center because I see this connection when I'm doing x, y, z task. So I definitely think, for family members and for, stakeholders in general, like, students are better able to articulate what they're doing and, and our stakeholders can then ask more questions to our students.

Dan Peat: (10:40)
Absolutely. And that goes hand in hand with how the businesses, the business partners that are hiring our students get the benefit to.

Vicki Buckley: (10:46)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (10:46)
Because they know if the faculty are doing evidence-based learning.

Vicki Buckley: (10:50)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (10:50)
And they're using SOTL to get the best ideas out in the best way. It's not just some esoteric theory that I'm teaching.

Vicki Buckley: (10:58)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (10:58)
You know, X leads the y it's, I'm teaching the theory and they're experiencing it, and they're building both the tactile and the, the, the mental skills that go hand in hand. So it's one thing to say, I understand how X leads the Y now they actually have experienced how X leads the Y.

Vicki Buckley: (11:17)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (11:18)
So that our business partners know when they're getting students from here, maybe they don't have the work experience, but they have experienced these problems and these tasks 'cause the faculty are building out the best options for them. So I think that's a huge benefit.

Vicki Buckley: (11:32)
. And we also in Lindner, I think we are fairly unique. we have such a close relationship with a lot of our, our local business partners and some national ones as well, that we get a lot of feedback through our career services or other folks who come to our classrooms. So we know what, what questions they have and what they want our students to learn. And we can kind of shape our experiences in a way that benefits both those stakeholders but the students too. So it's like a very reflective, reflexive process of, of learning here.

Dan Peat: (12:04)
Absolutely. And if that's not enough motivation to do it.

Vicki Buckley: (12:06)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (12:06)
The college has recognized the importance of it. So now it's actually part of faculty reappointment, promotion and tenure to do SOTL research as part of a total package. And especially for the teaching faculty, that's a huge component of it. 'cause you should be getting better. You should be if you, if you have all these touch points with students, you know, start getting better. And, and I see, and this is another argument for doing it, is I see a lot of faculty that have these really cool, really innovative tools and, and processes and projects and case studies and all this stuff they bring into the class and they don't share it with other people.

Vicki Buckley: (12:43)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (12:44)
And SOTL is like the best way to share it with others.

Vicki Buckley: (12:48)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (12:48)
And, and I know I kind of just went through all of those different examples, but I think that's probably the next section is what is the different types of SOTL? So that's kinda the baseline, right? Yeah.

Vicki Buckley: (13:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so Dan, can you share, I know we talked a little bit earlier about what we did during Covid, but do you have other examples of a teaching exercise or case that you've developed as part of your SOTL work?

Dan Peat: (13:13)
Yeah, absolutely. Anytime I develop something for a class, I always try to think forward of how can I share this outside? And, and I know it's happening, I actually wrote a case study with with a doctoral student, Olivia Anger here, and one of our, advisors, Jen Lewis. And that case study is published.

Vicki Buckley: (13:34)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (13:34)
It's on mental health in the first year. And we had two, stories for a, for a couple students up in the northeast. That one was struggling with just the course load at an engineering school and not keeping up and, and started having some, some, issues with that. And the other one actually had an acute mental health episode.

Vicki Buckley: (13:54)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (13:55)
And we published that case study, and now that's being used at the University of Maine's Business School and their first year to teach their students.

Vicki Buckley: (14:02)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (14:02)
So that's kind of one example of a, of a case study.

Dan Peat: (14:06)
I, I teach leadership and I'm always looking for cool new leadership exercises.

Vicki Buckley: (14:12)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (14:16)
And this is one that I've been working on. This one, it's been under review for a little while where, they have to work on different roles in a team and do a task. And they have roles like the social loafer who's just playing on their phone the whole time.

Vicki Buckley: (14:30)
Gosh.

Dan Peat: (14:31)
the devil's advocate who's, arguing with every single thing that comes up. They want to, they wanna push back on it, and they still have to do this task, and then they're planning a trip. And it's just a really good experience for the different kind of people that they're gonna run into.

Vicki Buckley: (14:46)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (14:46)
On teams and the leaders trying to keep this all together. So I've done exercises, I've done case studies, there are, like lectures and things like that, that, that surround it. Yeah. So those are, those are some of the examples. So, so once we got that, and I've, I've mentioned this a couple times, what, what is the difference between pedagogy and andragogy? That's kind of a, an important thing to come back to.

Vicki Buckley: (15:10)
Yeah. So pedagogy and andragogy are ways to approach teaching. Pedagogy is typically for younger children around K-12 and andragogy is focused on adult learning. In higher education, we tend to teach with pedagogical practices. So there's, there's a set, it's not like it's an official list, but there are ways that we approach teaching and learning. And we tend to focus more on a pedagogical lens in higher education. We are teaching, young adults, you know, 18 to 22 ish. But definitely we want to start considering some anagogical principles as well. With pedagogy, it's focused more on, instructors supporting students along the way. So there might be more, supports or assistance. It's, it's not self-directed. It's, it's very much, the instructor will lead you in a particular direction. But with andragogy, especially with, with older adults, and maybe you've experienced this more, it's, it's more open, learning needs to be connected to specific tasks. You need to see the purpose. You have the opportunity to create meaning and ways that are important to you. So it's, it's more open-ended and that tends to support, our older students or older adults when they're learning.

Dan Peat: (16:29)
And I think that's an important distinction too, when we're doing SOTL to keep that in mind of.

Vicki Buckley: (16:33)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (16:33)
Which framework you really want to, work towards. And I've done exercises and, and case studies and things that work for both.

Vicki Buckley: (16:42)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (16:44)
But, you know, some, sometimes it just doesn't. And yeah, just keeping that distinction in mind is, is kind of important. And, and, and coming back to these different types of case studies and how students can, can be involved in this. Yeah. Uc has the undergraduate scholarly showcase. Yeah. And I'm always really sad to see the business school is very underrepresented there. I've seen maybe four presentations from business students. Half of 'em were my students.

Vicki Buckley: (17:12)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (17:12)
So it's, it'd be nice to see more undergrads from Lindner over there showing, Hey, business research is a real thing, and this is the kind of scholarship of teaching and learning that we're doing in Lindner.

Dan Peat: (17:24)
Yeah. So I had one student that presented on an ethical lapse that a, a teacher had and ended up resigning and, and everything went into that. That was a case study. I've also had a student present on a vignette exercise I was using in my ethics course of a, of an ethical dilemma.

Vicki Buckley: (17:39)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (17:40)
And we actually have some student data of how they react to that. And they're analyzing that and giving some feedback. And we're, we're gonna take that one forward for publication.

Vicki Buckley: (17:48)
Great.

Dan Peat: (17:48)
So it's really cool because these students come out of their undergrad education with a publication.

Vicki Buckley: (17:55)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (17:55)
They are published authors. I have one that's probably gonna have two case studies by the time they graduate. So I think that one's pretty awesome.

Vicki Buckley: (18:02)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (18:02)
And I think that has some pretty important meaning to parents too. Like, this is the kind of innovations that your students are doing. It's not just the faculty here, the, the students are co-creating, like we talked about with those teaching methods.

Vicki Buckley: (18:15)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (18:16)
And we talk about this in the army, they always leave it a better place for those in the future.

Vicki Buckley: (18:21)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (18:21)
That's what they're doing for future students and how they, they can, play that.

Vicki Buckley: (18:27)
So for the undergraduate scholarly showcase, it, it gives students the opportunity to use other skills. So not only is the researching there, obviously, but they get to present and share out. So it's a little bit of public speaking, a little bit of critical thinking and being on your toes if you're asked questions you're not prepared for or you didn't know. So I absolutely think that these opportunities give students different ways to flex their skills, and practice for when they are in an internship or their first professional opportunity, which ultimately benefits our partners.

Dan Peat: (18:58)
Yeah. And I think, one of the other things with that too is that, there's an opportunity there for a business to get a decision point out there.

Vicki Buckley: (19:06)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (19:07)
And have students evaluate it.

Vicki Buckley: (19:08)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (19:09)
And I had this conversation with somebody who, wants to remain anonymous, but they've asked me to write an anonymized case study, and I'm doing that with a student now. Change the industry, change the company, but keep the decision the same.

Vicki Buckley: (19:20)
Oh.

Dan Peat: (19:20)
And this person wants all the analysis that the students do and anything else. And I'm gonna feed that to this, this person as a way of getting some, you know, analysis on, on what a company could do. Yeah. And we've got a lot of local companies that it's a good way to get their name out there. Now part of that is probably shouldn't write something negative about that company if you're gonna partner with somebody.

Dan Peat: (19:46)
But this is a, a good way if somebody's willing to allow their name to be on a case study or a project to see, to expose themselves to the students. Yeah. And to get kind of the student's feedback and analysis on those, on those cases. I'll never forget my, my intro to management class when I was in college, the faculty member had us analyze this company and then had the CEO of the company in there for our final projects.

Vicki Buckley: (20:12)
Oh, geez.

Dan Peat: (20:13)
Oh, yeah. And we were, we were definitely throwing some barbs and daggers about the decisions that were made.

Vicki Buckley: (20:19)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (20:20)
And that CEO took a lot of notes and he gave us some ribbing, but it was such a great experience and, and to meet this person and, and to do that. And I've always kept that in mind when I'm designing these. So I talked before, like, you do this stuff and you keep it in a vacuum and nobody sees it. So what's our outlets? So how do, how do we get it outside the walls of Lindner?

Vicki Buckley: (20:41)
Yeah. The, there are many, many ways. And Lindner has some great, well, I think we'll talk about it later, but Lindner has some great, opportunities to share SOTL work as well. there are a lot of journal publications that, produce just SOTL works. So, within discipline. So you can look discipline specific, business specific, management specific, you know, you could drill down as as finely as you want. There are a lot of, publications that are books. So I mentioned my favorite SOTL adjacent books. So there's a lot of narrative writing you could do if you don't necessarily want to, produce a work that's like a journal article. you can write something more narrative and not casual, but, more accessible for folks. So you could be reading that, you could be writing that. And then there's a couple conferences that are nearby that we both have gone to for many, many years. So the Lily conference, the annual Lily Conference on Teaching and learning is at Miami University. It's the original Lilly Conference, . There are many different, Lilies that you could attend, but the one up the road is, is very great. And then we also have the LT, so learning, learning technology at UC conference, which happens every spring. So those are great. low cost, low to no cost opportunities to, get your feet wet with what's going on at local. so venues.

Dan Peat: (22:09)
Yeah. And if anybody's looking at how to try to find those.

Vicki Buckley: (22:12)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (22:15)
Google Scholar's a great place to look, or ebsco, which is our, our, search engine that we have on our library is a good one. Like you said, discipline specific, almost every discipline, if you search Journal of Discipline Education Yeah. There's one there.

Vicki Buckley: (22:28)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (22:29)
So I've published in the Journal of Organizational Behavior Education and the Journal of International Business Education. And, and they're, they're good publications to get it out there. That's their sole focus. Some different journals will require data of evidence that the teaching, mechanism has improved learning, things like that. and that can be quantitative or qualitative data in most cases. Some journals will take, it based entirely on a conceptual, as long as you're arguing how you've used it in the past. I've got one under review at a journal like that where it's, they, they, they don't want data.

Dan Peat: (23:07)
In fact, they specifically prohibit it, but you have to explain how you've used it in your classroom and, and show it evidence by arguments of how it's worked well. So that's on the journal side, and I think that's like the, the, the best way to get it out there. But those conferences are so good.

Vicki Buckley: (23:22)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (23:22)
And they're, especially LT at UC is, it's kind of low hanging fruit for us here at Lindner because it's a, it's an internal conference.

Vicki Buckley: (23:31)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (23:31)
And most of the audiences other faculty at UC. Yeah. And I know you and I have presented there. We've, we've done other presentations and then a lot of our, our, field specific conferences, like the Academy of Management Conference has a teaching and learning component to it too.

Vicki Buckley: (23:49)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (23:49)
And getting involved in that. So, I got a question for you.

Vicki Buckley: (23:52)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (23:52)
What advice would you give to faculty members that are gonna try SOTL for the first time? Yeah.

Vicki Buckley: (23:58)
I would say, I have a whole list here, but, the first is like, start small. You don't have to make it a big thing. it is a systematic process of inquiry. So there are connections to the literature and educational theory that you wanna be paying attention to, but you can engage in SOTL and like, not publish in a top tier journal, like.

Dan Peat: (24:17)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (24:19)
The act of going through SOTL and being reflective and reflexive and sharing your work in, you know, maybe an informal way I think is still just as valid, and might be more accessible to you based on your time. The library here at UC has a great SOTL guide. So does, our CETL so Center for Excellence and Teaching and Learning, they have, some great resources for getting started, or if you're nervous about the literature review or you don't know how to connect this thing that you did, that's great to educational theory.

Vicki Buckley: (24:49)
They've got some help guides to help you make those connections. I think reading a lot of SOTL research is helpful so you can kind of get the feel for the flow and the vibe. And then, here in Lindner, I've got two specific suggestions. So in the summer we have our communities of practice and also our Lindner teaching fellows in the summer. So those are opportunities to engage in SOTL work. There's no, you don't have to publish as a part of those, those opportunities, but I think it's a good way to get started and get your feet wet. And then my last one is just to find a buddy who's already engaged in SOTL work at UC. So Dan, I know Natalia Mintchik is also pretty, well published in, in the SOTL research. So finding somebody who has done it before, I think is a great way to, you know, kickstart your own process.

Dan Peat: (25:36)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as a, as an instructor, when we pick up, again, these, these tools and these exercises that exist is looking beyond just the exercise and the tool itself and looking at what went into creating it and what went into the backbone, what were the learning objectives. And as you read that understanding, I think that helps us to frame it going forward if you want to do it yourself. And then I always recommend talk instructional design because.

Vicki Buckley: (26:01)
oh yeah.

Dan Peat: (26:01)
they know this, this research, they know what they're doing in this area.

Vicki Buckley: (26:05)
Hey, thanks.

Dan Peat: (26:05)
And they're kind of our experts in this. And I, I don't think I would've been as successful as I have been without having some of our awesome instructional designers there with us.

Vicki Buckley: (26:14)
Thanks, Dan.

Dan Peat: (26:15)
and I, and I wanna talk a little bit about collaborating across departments too, because I think this is an important one.

Dan Peat: (26:20)
I have a another case study that's under review right now that has a very heavy information systems and legal component to it. So I worked with a lawyer who, was a former instructor at another university and who also is really heavy in the information space. So we're bringing in information systems theory.

Vicki Buckley: (26:41)
Mm.

Dan Peat: (26:41)
And legal theory. And I'm bringing, bringing in the ethics and the human resources theory. And we're writing a case study about using ai, as a recruiting tool at, a major company.

Vicki Buckley: (26:51)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (26:51)
And just being able to see those connections, I think is, is a really beneficial way to show people even outside and to teach our students, like, look, you're taking all these different courses, but they're all interconnected.

Vicki Buckley: (27:04)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (27:04)
They're not like one-offs.

Vicki Buckley: (27:05)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (27:05)
And especially when we get into some of the, the BA courses like design thinking, ethics, inclusion and business or business Strategy or foundations in the first year, to show how there's cross departmental, coordination on these SOTL projects, I think is very, very important.

Vicki Buckley: (27:23)
Mm-hmm . I also wanna echo that. I think in the past couple years, now that we're back from covid, some departments have started doing brown bags.

Dan Peat: (27:31)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (27:33)
around SOTL like topics. I would love if those were more widely shared so that we could all start seeing, what other folks are doing. I think that's a great way to start talking.

Dan Peat: (27:44)
I'll take that as a good hint, hint, nudge, nudge. I need to do a brown bag or a brown bag or a, lunch and learn on

Vicki Buckley: (27:49)
Oh yeah. Lunch and learns.

Dan Peat: (27:50)
on SOTL.

Vicki Buckley: (27:50)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Peat: (27:51)
Yeah. Okay. I'm on board, but if I'm committing to that, you're gonna help me out with it, right?

Vicki Buckley: (27:54)
Yes, sure.

Dan Peat: (27:55)
Awesome.

Vicki Buckley: (27:55)
No, .

Vicki Buckley: (27:58)
So Dan, what role can students play in helping faculty bring some SOTL projects to life?

Dan Peat: (28:03)
Yeah. And I mentioned data earlier and I probably should have more generally said feedback.

Vicki Buckley: (28:08)
Mm.

Dan Peat: (28:08)
And any of my leadership students that are listening to this, they're gonna start laughing because I say feedback so many times in that class that they write it and they get nauseous when I say it at the end of the semester.

Vicki Buckley: (28:19)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (28:19)
Or it's just a big joke, but I think it is critical.

Vicki Buckley: (28:22)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:22)
Because you don't know if something's working or not until you get the feedback.

Vicki Buckley: (28:26)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:26)
And that includes people that have graduated and are now working. Give us the feedback of, Hey, you remember when you took that course? You remember this thing that you said was really fun and cool? How have you used that?

Vicki Buckley: (28:38)
Ooh.

Dan Peat: (28:38)
And I'm gonna give a couple shout outs to, a couple alumni, Lindsey Jones and Amanda Reed, who have graduated a few years ago.

Dan Peat: (28:46)
And both of them have contacted me afterwards to say how much they learned in the classes.

Vicki Buckley: (28:50)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:52)
And have pointed to specific projects and things that I gave them to do.

Vicki Buckley: (28:57)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (28:57)
And they've seen that in their careers now.

Vicki Buckley: (28:59)
Oh, that's great.

Dan Peat: (29:00)
And, I think that's a, that's a really good selling point for doing this in a, in a little bit more professional, methodical way.

Vicki Buckley: (29:09)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (29:10)
so the more students give us feedback and, and help us out with this beyond just like helping write a case study.

Vicki Buckley: (29:16)
Right.

Dan Peat: (29:16)
But giving us feedback on how things go in the classroom, I think is critical.

Vicki Buckley: (29:20)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (29:20)
And I talk to a lot of recruiters too, to ask 'em what kind of projects they're they're seeing and what their feedback is on students.

Vicki Buckley: (29:26)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (29:26)
And I use that to reintegrate that into the projects I'm doing as well to make sure it's mimicking the real world experiences.

Vicki Buckley: (29:32)
Mm-hmm . That's great. Yeah. I love, for me as an instructional designer, anytime we give students the opportunity to use their voice and to share their experiences, instead of just, operating from, I am the expert, I know what's best. But to really take the time and hear what students are saying in that moment, but then also in the future as well. I think that's so important and meaningful for them because it, it helps them reflect on what they did and what they're thinking and how, it shapes them.

Dan Peat: (30:02)
And man, do, they come up with some good ideas.

Vicki Buckley: (30:04)
Oh my gosh, they totally do.

Dan Peat: (30:05)
I mean, I've, I've had things like, how do I teach this in the class? And I've asked students and they come up with some great ideas, and if they're good enough, hey, come on to the projects. Let's go do an independent study or something and present it at the.

Vicki Buckley: (30:17)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (30:17)
The scholarly showcase. I keep highlighting that one.

Vicki Buckley: (30:20)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:20)
But I think that's such a great opportunity for them. And then they get the more confidence they.

Vicki Buckley: (30:25)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:26)
They can show that they've done something. And I, I think this is another selling point to parents and external partners too, of, look, your students are helping shape the future of the education at Lindner.

Vicki Buckley: (30:39)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:40)
And the more we can get external partners involved, the more they're able to make sure that the innovations that we're using in class actually reflect the real world.

Vicki Buckley: (30:49)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:50)
And I think that's probably the most important thing that they can, they can handle.

Dan Peat: (30:54)
So, just one last piece of advice for faculty, and I think it's kind of a, a challenge to them is share what you're doing in the classroom.

Vicki Buckley: (31:02)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (31:03)
Make sure it's grounded well, in theory, work with the instructional designers that know what they're doing, make sure that we're actually building real world skills for the students and share it and get it out there. Because I've learned so much from other people. I, you know, I've talked a little bit about my own projects and experiences, but I've used just as many of other people's innovations, and I think that's a really, really important part of the, the, knowledge dissemination we do at the university.

Vicki Buckley: (31:30)
Mm-hmm . Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (31:32)
My thanks to Dan Peat and Vicki Buckley for stopping by the Lindner podcast studio today to educate listeners on the scholarship of teaching and learning at the Lindner College of Business and beyond. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to bring you enjoyable content. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. We're back from winter break. How exciting. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. Today I'm joined by Vaishnovi Palaparthy and Megha Pawar, two international students enrolled in Lindner's master of Information Systems program. I am so excited to learn about their respective journeys to Lindner and their experiences so far. Welcome Vaishnovi, and Megha. Thank you so much for being here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (00:31)
Hi Grant. Thank you so much. I'm Vaishnovi for people who are listening and I'm pretty excited for the opportunity of getting to speak about, you know, our admissions and our life here at Lindner. And yeah.

Megha Pawar: (00:42)
Hi Grant. I'm Megha, to the people who are listening. Thank you for having me. And I'm, pretty excited to share my experiences at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:50)
Well, thank you both again for being here. Both of you have fascinating backstories, and Vaishnovi, I wanna start with you and your path to Lindner and Cincinnati, which is more than unique, I would say.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (01:00)
. Yeah, mine is a long story. So, I was working in India and I worked as a cloud DevOps engineer back in India at TCS and everything was going great. And then I got married, so , which is also great. Let me just add.

Grant Freking: (01:15)
Yeah. To clarify. Yes.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (01:17)
Yes. So then, basically my husband lives here. So I moved to Cincinnati almost three years ago. And ever since I've been in Cincinnati and I just fell in love with the city. So people think that Cincinnati is like a small city and you know, how is it gonna be? It's not like New York or any big city. What experiences am I gonna get? But to everyone listening out there who's probably wanting to apply, I would say that this city brings in so much peace and calmness. It is also a city, but at the same time it's also a very, very you know, like a calm, slow place to stay at. And with getting your master's started and everything changing in your life, that sort of calmness is actually very, very important, which you will get over here, I assure you. But on a side note, I love snow because in India we don't get to see snow.

Grant Freking: (02:06)
Yeah, you're getting plenty of it right now.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:08)
A lot more than I asked for, but, yeah, that's pretty exciting. And I fell in love with the city, the culture, the people, the people are so welcoming, they're so warm and yeah, that's my story.

Grant Freking: (02:19)
Yeah. So a little bit of like small town feel with a lot of big city features here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:23)
Yes. Perfect. Exactly.

Grant Freking: (02:24)
Okay. And Megha, what about you?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:26)
So my journey to Lindner and Cincinnati has been transformative. I grew up in Mumbai, India and worked as a research operations analyst at Merkel, where I analyzed market survey data for clients like Nielsen IQ and IRI worldwide to deliver actionable insights. After gaining valuable professional experience, I realized that I needed to enhance my technical and business skills with a deeper understanding. And Lindner stood out to me with the focus on experiential learning and Cincinnati's welcoming community and abundant career opportunities made it an easy choice. Since arriving, I have engaged in research, taken on leadership roles like student ambassador and truly found a second home here.

Grant Freking: (03:11)
That's great to hear. Now, what was it, I guess specifically about Lindner and the city that has made you feel, or what is it about the, the, lemme start over. Danielle. 3, 2, 1.

Grant Freking: (03:19)
Megha, What is it specifically about Lindner and the city in general that has made you feel at home specifically after relocating half a global way?

Megha Pawar: (03:27)
Yeah, so the sense of community and the opportunities at Lindner were key. The faculty and staff made me feel welcome from day one. And the college's focus on hands-on learning, aligned with my career goals. Additionally, Cincinnati's vibrant sports culture, I've attended every football game this year of Bearcats.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (03:46)
She did, she did.

Megha Pawar: (03:47)
I think excluding only one because it was very snowy then .

Grant Freking: (03:50)
Okay.

Megha Pawar: (03:50)
And the thriving arts scene and extensive co-op opportunities sparked my interest, making it an ideal place to grow both personally and professionally.

Grant Freking: (04:00)
Awesome. Awesome. To clarify football, you mean American football or are we talking about soccer?

Megha Pawar: (04:04)
American football.

Grant Freking: (04:05)
Yeah, . Okay. Okay. I just, because I know, I know to the rest of the world, football is actually football and not American football, so.

Megha Pawar: (04:10)
Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (04:11)
Vaishnovi, what about you? I'm, you know, I'm assuming you came to Lindner not just because of location, but because also because of some other features.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (04:17)
Yes. Like obviously like I had everywhere to apply, but I still chose it here. Of course, my home is here and that weighs in, I agree. But then, so my husband's as well a graduate from University of Cincinnati from the BANA program, and he keeps telling me, talking about his experiences and about the faculty and how it transformed his life and you know, how it made it better, which kind of did convince me into coming here, . Other than that, you know, the ranking of Lindner itself is pretty convincing if I'm being honest. And, just being here feels like home right now for me. So, yeah.

Grant Freking: (04:53)
Well, I'll have to give your husband a big thank you if ever meet him one day. Vaishnovi, I'm sure potential and current Lindner students are interested to know how you've transitioned, you know, to to Cincinnati. How has your experience been? I know you've been here for three years so far, but again, iandn your experience is a little bit different than Megha, but how, how has your experience been in the city?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:12)
It's been pretty amazing, if I'm being honest. of course, like just moving across the globe, it's not easy. And the transformation of, you know, completely new country, new people, new culture

Grant Freking: (05:23)
New climate, as you're experiencing.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:24)
New climate, yes, there are all these factors, but then also the people here are very, very nice. Let me add something on a side note. The driving here is very peaceful 'cause I've been to New York.

Grant Freking: (05:36)
Oh wow.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:37)
I've been to Miami and then I decided I'm not gonna drive there, here like people are good. And, other than that, being in Cincinnati experiencing, you know, the October Fest and, you know, stuff like that, it makes you still feel like there are things to do and

Grant Freking: (05:54)
Sense of community is kind of what I'm, what I'm picking up on here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:57)
Yeah. I wasn't finding the right word, but yeah, that's basically what I'm trying to say. Other than that, also for people in India who are listening, I would like to say that don't assume that there are no Indians here or there's no like Indian facilities or like Indian community. Cincinnati is so welcoming that there is a rich Indian community which is well respected and you know, you'll still get your food, you'll still get your groceries, everything will be good. That's what I wanna say. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (06:24)
Yeah, it's an important everyday life.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (06:25)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (06:25)
Some things to know me. What about you?

Megha Pawar: (06:27)
Yeah, so the transition was smooth. When I attended the orientation with, professor Rokey. I can't explain how thankful I was to him that day because the moment I heard him talk, it felt like we had somebody to fall back to or go to, with all our problems. And yeah, he's been that sort of a person with all of us in the MS IS program and he's the program director. Then also the events that were held in the college, there were too many events going on by the different student clubs and organizations throughout the campus, in TUC near the rec center. And, yeah, the strong support from the staff and faculty and these experiences not only helped me to settle in quickly, but also made me feel truly in home here because

Grant Freking: (07:18)
It's, it's, you're not just here for academics, you're here for the rest of your life or you're not outside the building. So it's great to hear that you've felt that sense of community. Not to say another phrase again, but Yep.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (07:27)
I would actually like to add something to what she just said.

Grant Freking: (07:29)
Sure. Yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (07:31)
In terms of the sense of community. So for me, like my situation is different. Like I already live with a person here, so I'm not technically alone, but like most of the people who move here are like, they, they, you know, starting out a new life. If you're joining the graduate's program, you're like literally you left off where you were working and you like left everything behind. And you've come here to start a new life in the true sense. And, it's very easy to be, get depressed very soon, feel homesick very, very soon because you are, at the end of the day, you're going back home and you're alone. You're not seeing your family as regularly as you would in back at your home, wherever you come from.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (08:09)
But the college actually takes effort to make sure you don't feel that way. As she said, various cultural, various clubs, various, various events keep happening so that, you know, the students mix, the students meet each other and the students like they mingle with each other and make good friends so that, you know, these friendships like they last for a lifetime is what the college looks at. And of course, speaking about the professors and our, godfather, which I would like to say Professor Rokey , he'll definitely, you will never feel alone for a minute. Other than that there are like services, like the CAPS and everything, who's there to help you and not make you feel awkward even once mm-hmm . So, you know, there are all these things that just, you know, add confidence to your choice of actually coming to UC and like if you'll not even question your decision even for a second , that's how comfortable we feel. Yeah. Let's just put it that way.

Grant Freking: (09:04)
Like, thank you both for sharing that. It's very refreshing to hear.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (09:06)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:06)
Let's zero in a bit on the MS IS program. If, if you don't mind that each of you are enrolled in. Megha, what is it about this program that you felt would not only meet your expectations academically but also prepare you for the next step of your professional career? I'm assuming you don't wanna be in school forever. So what about your professional career?

Megha Pawar: (09:22)
So the MSIS program at Lindner offers the perfect balance of technical and business skills. Courses like web development with.net and information technology management are directly aligned with the industry needs. The program's small cohort size fosters close connections and personalized learning while the one-year format ensures a good return of investment. Additionally, the emphasis on real-world projects, co-op opportunities and networking has given me the confidence to take on challenging roles in the tech industry.

Grant Freking: (09:56)
Awesome. Vaishnovi?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (09:58)
So of course I've spoken to people who've studied in the MS IS program before and I actually do have a couple of friends who graduated from UC. And when I spoke when I spoke to them about this and about joining masters here and why specifically MS IS, it's because MS IS actually offers a holistic approach to the program and the way the course is designed and the type of electives we are offered, the type of course subjects we have, everything actually, if you put it together in one plate, it makes like the perfect, you know, meal, if I would put it that way. You know, there's enough balance of subject and also professional experience. And most of our professors are our adjunct professors here who basically work full-time and also come here to teach us. And they have like a lifetime of experience. What can get better than that?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (10:51)
Like they literally, speak to us about whatever we are learning how it's actually used at work every day, which is actually kind of important 'cause you can only understand so much with books, right? You, and then you gotta go out there and work. So they actually help us focus on, you know, where we are supposed to be focusing at, looking at working on, and they are so helpful, so understanding they'll not judge you no matter what. Like if you don't know the most basic things, they are still going to take the time out to explain it to you. I, myself have experienced that a lot of times and they don't make you feel, you know, because people here come from different backgrounds. Like I, she herself came as an analyst previously and I'm a cloud engineer. Like there's no relation between these two . Yeah. But we are still in the same program and we are still doing very well. It's because of the way our professors are making sure that we learn. And that is something in Lindner that I am very, very happy about. And I will tell it a hundred times to people listening that they need to, they need to know that what great stuff is actually happening here and these are things you don't know until you don't start studying here.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (11:58)
So yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:01)
Yeah. We can promote as much as what you just said in marketing, but until you're in actually in the program and experiencing that, that's, you know, yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:08)
It's like a risk at the end of the day, you're just putting in a lot of your time, your career, like your future career, everything based on this degree. And I understand the type of fear people might have. Like what's gonna happen next? Is this the right choice? I should have taken that program probably, or this, but this program actually will give you the comfort that you've made the right choice.

Grant Freking: (12:28)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:28)
That is something I can assure.

Grant Freking: (12:30)
Right. And it, I'm assuming it's very helpful for those professors that you spoke about that have not only the academic experience, but their professional experience.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:37)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (12:37)
They can come in fresh off, you know, talked about having night classes tonight.

Megha Pawar: (12:40)
Yeah, yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:41)
They come, they might be coming off, they're teaching at night too. They might be coming off at five o'clock, like, Hey, listen to what happened to me at this job I work at. Yeah. And, and relaying those sort of issues and real world problems to you.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:52)
I would actually add something to the same thing. So we've had, professors who work and who are also coming back to teach us and like if we actually faced a problem in class, because we do like these in class lab sessions and activity sessions with real software and we faced like a, like some dead end. They actually tell us what actually happened at their work and how they got over it. And like, you know, and the way they tell it, it makes us remember how to not do it again. So this is the type of teaching you want to have in your life. Right. So yeah.

Grant Freking: (13:24)
Excellent. Have more of a bigger picture question for the both of you, and I'll start with you Vaishnovi. How would you differentiate information systems from similar but different areas of study? I think people outside of, you know, you're in the program, I do marketing for the program as well as many others, but maybe confused with BANA or some other.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:42)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (13:42)
Similar programs here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:43)
Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (13:43)
At UC or elsewhere. How would you differentiate IS?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:46)
So, as I said IS, is is, it's gonna be mine forever, but Oh, so my husband did it from BANA and I'm doing IS we chose different programs. Even though I knew what he studied it, it would be very easy for me to just get his help and, you know, study and get through. But then I specifically chose this program on my own and not wanting to get into that. It's because, as I just answered as well, that this program gives a completely different approach. There is analytics and it's very easy to get, confused between BANA and IS the way the courses are designed. We have a lot of similar subjects. We mostly in our class as well, we have BANA students sitting with us. That's, that's the amount of similarity we share. But also we are different at the same time because, we do other subjects as well, which are, are at this point of time in market, have a lot of demand.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (14:41)
And that's how adaptive this course has been. So what I would like to say about how is it different, but also same, but also different kind of a thing is.

Grant Freking: (14:49)
. Yep.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (14:52)
Basically, it can look lucrative to, you know, get confused like BANA, IS or, MBA and stuff like that. But this program offers like a good amount of, you know, knowledge in terms of, books I would say, I don't know how to put it, but like in-class knowledge, but also real world practical experience. Like we are preparing, in future and we are not sure what type of job roles we are looking at, but we are prepared to be analysts if we get an analyst role. We are prepared to be a data engineer if we get a data engineer role. We are also prepared to be a web developer role. I mean, get a web developer role. I mean,

Grant Freking: (15:24)
Yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (15:24)
So that's how the program is getting us ready. Like there are multiple roles that we can adapt ourselves to because of the type of courses we've chosen and the type of courses that they offer.

Grant Freking: (15:34)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (15:34)
So we are not like, you know, directed into one direction to study just this. So Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:40)
Sure. Yeah. It's not too rigid. Megha, how would you classify IIS

Megha Pawar: (15:43)
So as Vaishnovi said, yes, it's very easy to get confused between BANA, is and all, but, is has more of a technical focus too with respect. Like that is the differentiating point between BANA and IS we have a little more technical edge over them. Yes, it is prepare, it has prepared us for, various roles like data engineer or maybe, front-end web developer or maybe mobile app developers because we have done subjects like, exam and web services, et cetera. yes, we do have similar courses with them, such as data angling and et cetera. But yeah, it is similar but still different, with the approach that we have. , they do more of case studies. We do have a subject which had case study, but we are more sort of hands-on experience with sub like projects and everything.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (16:45)
Yeah. As she said, the types of, the type of projects that we are doing, like in the previous semester, we've, we've been done with one semester. So we've already built a website, fully functioning website.

Megha Pawar: (16:54)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (16:55)
We've hosted a website. We've, at the same time we have also done system analysis projects in which we are literally seeing the skeletal structure of a particular process or something. We've also done like statistical computing projects of like, that's a subject that I took that's a, that's a subject that Megha didn't take actually. She's taken data wrangling and I took stat comp and we've like, I've created HTML pages and websites, but we've also done Core Python and coding. So that's what like I'm trying to put out here that, you know, you get a lot of experience and the type of projects that we actually get to do, it just brings so much more experience to the table that, you know, it's something that you don't wanna forget.

Grant Freking: (17:38)
Now what recommendations, and, Megha I'll start with you. Would you have for fellow international students who may be considering the Lindner College of Business? Whether it's, you know, fellow students from India or anywhere, what, what, what sort of priorities should they take? And then also how would Lindner factor into those priorities?

Megha Pawar: (17:57)
So my advice to them will be to embrace every opportunity. Engage with the community, participate in the networking events. Like Lindner hosts a lot of networking events, like Data Science Symposium. We have career fairs now. We have a OBAIS night wherein we will have, various companies and we can engage with them. We have Friday seminars, which are done by Professor Rokey. And that is especially only for the MS-IS cohort. So, yeah. And don't hesitate to seek help when needed. The faculty, staff, students, alumni, everybody are incredibly supportive and most importantly, stay curious and open to new experiences. It'll make your journey even more exciting.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (18:47)
Okay. So my recommendations to people who are going to apply firstly would be, of course check out the curriculum check out the website, see how everything's going. That's like the most basic thing.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (18:57)
So when it comes to curriculum there are a lot of options for our electives actually. It's just you can keep scrolling and then they just keep coming.

Grant Freking: (19:03)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (19:04)
Because that's the type of offers offering we get from college. I would like to say that, don't assume that probably this subject is not something that I have been working on so it doesn't align with my work experience or something. I would actually motivate them to take the new subject. It'll give them more experience. And the faculty here, I can assure you, are going to make sure that you learn. There's a lot of encouragement here for making sure that we learn something out of what we are doing, because that's basically the core point of doing your masters. And, don't try to, judge based on the city or you know, it being a small city, because I understand the excitement, like, you're moving to U.S., So you want to live here, you wanna live there.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (19:48)
Don't do that. Like, I get it. But I would definitely tell that the type of course and the type of curriculum is something that will really, really help people no matter what background you're coming from. So that would be my number one recommendation to make sure that, don't even, think about, is it gonna be good? I'll assure you that it's gonna be good. That is one thing. And for the people who already applied and like are gonna come in for the summer or for fall, my recommendation would for them would be something similar to what Megha said. There are so many events happening in terms of academic and non-academic, focusing on the academic part for now. There's like so much professional experience that you get to interact with. And as she said, professor Rokey, he arranges Friday seminars and stuff like that in which there are like real working people who are taking the time out to come and speak to us and to, you know, show us how it's going to be in real world and how they are going to, how their needs and our needs actually coincide basically.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (20:51)
So what I would say to the people who already applied is be excited, make sure you mingle, make sure you go to these events. Make sure you network, which is, professor Rokey's favorite word.

Grant Freking: (21:02)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (21:03)
Networking, . So make sure you network and don't try to limit your opportunities on your own because there is, so, there's a lot to offer here. And grab every opportunity you get.

Grant Freking: (21:16)
My thanks to Vaishnovi Palaparthy and Megha Pawar for sharing their experiences today on Bearcat Mean Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five star review for Bearcats MeanBbusiness on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Grant Freking: (21:29)
Attention UC undergrads. If you are interested in learning more about the highly ranked graduate programs at the Lindner College of Business, be sure to attend the Lindner Graduate Program Showcase, being held Thursday, February 13th from 4 to 6:00 PM at Lindner Hall. Attendees will hear from current students have access to personalized guidance from Lindner's graduate programs team, and receive free food and swag. Seats are limited. So click the link in this episode's description to register. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Megha Pawar: (21:56)
Go Bearcats.