Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:01)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. It's my distinct pleasure today to welcome Ann Sojka, Assistant Professor of Marketing and the Academic Director for the Grau Center for Professional Selling, and welcome. Thanks for being here.

Ann Sojka: (00:41)
Thanks, Grant. So good to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:42)
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. Um, your career is really interesting to me. You've made your way through industry, through coaching, and now you're in higher education. I also kind of dabbled in that before you became full-time here. Mm-hmm. And this is all before you, before becoming academic director of the sales center, the Grau Center for Professional Selling about a year ago. How ha - how have those experiences shaped the way you prepare students for business and sales roles?

Ann Sojka: (01:09)
Yeah. One of my guiding principles, uh, in my approach as an educator is to remind students that no experience is wasted. This is something my parents told me over and over again as I was a student. Yeah. And I, as I talk to students every single day, either one-on-one or in a group, they have a lot of pressure to figure out what they wanna do and find their dream job. And so I use myself as an example to show that it doesn't m - your first job won't be your dream job, probably. Mm. And you have a responsibility to be able to take some transferable skills and, and strengths that you have developed in whatever job you have and be able to talk, tell a story about how those contribute to you being successful in the next job. So I think about myself. I got into sales education as a student.

Ann Sojka: (02:01)
How'd that happen? I walked by a banner as an undergraduate that said over 50% of business majors get their first job in sales. Like our students, I was highly motivated to get a job. So I though, if that's where the jobs are, I'm gonna join the sales organization. Even after joining a sales organization and taking a sales class, my internships that I did during college and my first two jobs out of college were in retail operations. They weren't in sales. So I didn't get my first sales job until I was 25. And yet I was able to talk about what I learned from those other jobs. And also, I learned what I didn't like. I really didn't like - Vital. Yeah, exactly. I, I, I'm analytical by nature. I like numbers. But what I don't like is staring at numbers all day on a spreadsheet.

Ann Sojka: (02:49)
I need to talk to people. So I combined all those strengths for my sales job. Um, and I really also, you know, I lean on my academic experience to make sure my students understand sales theory, marketing theory. That's the basis for what they then implement when we start practicing and, and doing sales role plays and things. So no experience wasted. And, um, even my sales experience gave me skills that helped me be a good teacher. Yeah. So everything comes together in the end and, and who knows where I'll go from here. Right.

Grant Freking: (03:23)
Let's dovetail into, back into your career, your earlier career. Was there a moment when you realized that selling wasn't just about convincing people, it was about understanding them, that forming that bond, that relationship?

Ann Sojka: (03:35)
Yeah. I was really fortunate as a student to learn a consultative selling approach, which is what, what we still teach right now in our, uh, confident selling courses. And that is that selling is about asking questions and the salespeople should talk about half as much as their, as their customers do. So they can understand the customer challenges and then deliver benefits in terms of values. Solve problems for their customers. So I knew that as a student. And then I can think of a specific, um, example and a time that I'm really proud of from my sales career when I was an enterprise outside ex - sales executive selling to big customers. Yeah. Um, my customer and I were selling, celebrating a big project that we got done. And he said, "Ann I really like working with you because you actually care about me. You don't just care about me, you know, as an employee and making sure my project gets done successfully, but you want me to be successful.

Ann Sojka: (04:29)
You wanna help me get promoted. And you're not just trying to, you know, take me out on the golf course or entertain me or push a product on me. You made it work for me. And that's why I like working for you." And, and that means a lot to me. And when I tell my students about that perspective, it excites them because they don't wanna be slimy and pushy. Yeah. Most of our students.

Grant Freking: (04:48)
Right. Yeah. And my follow up to that was gonna be does, do you feel like that clicks with students when you, when you, they hear that because they can maybe relate it to their own experiences and they're like, "Okay, sales is something different than maybe what I've read about or seen on, seen on TV, et cetera."

Ann Sojka: (05:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely. We have this representation in the media, I think a lot of times that sales is Wolf of Wall Street, sell me this pen. You know, people who are a little devious and very charismatic maybe, but don't have the best interests of their customers in mind. Yeah. And I, I remind students too, "Hey, you're a seller, but you are a customer too. How do you wanna be, how do you wanna interact with a salesperson? We wanna be treated like people and everybody has their own needs. Um, and it's a responsibility of, of a good salesperson in a complex business to business, long-term relationship sale to get to know the customer, how they make decisions, and then help them solve their problems. That is huge. And that draws, that's what draws so many students to our sales classes is this, um, this reframe that we have in our program.

Ann Sojka: (05:52)
That's why, you know, we have almost 400 students every semester enrolled in our sales classes. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (05:57)
Let's talk a little bit about that program.m. I wanna review some of the gui - the guiding principles for Lindner sales education. Mm-hmm. First one that comes up to mind for me is sellers aren't born, they're made. Why do you think some people still believe, and we've kind of touched around this a little bit, why do you think some people still believe that great salespeople are simply born with it, that it can't be learned?

Ann Sojka: (06:17)
I, I think there are two reasons. The first, like I mentioned, the media. Yeah. We see representations of salespeople as slimy, pushy, extroverts, charismatic, and, and that's what we see in the media. The second is, I think it's a lack of exposure in real life to professional selling. So I'll speak to myself, for myself as a student. Yeah. I didn't have anybody in my family who was in sales, especially not like B2B complex selling. Right, right. So I think our students, unless they have a family member who's in sales, they don't really know what sales is about. So that's, that's what we are here to do as educators is to expand our students' understanding about what skills are required, um, for a specific job. And in our program, it's wonderful. We have, um, so many corporate partners who want to interact with our students. They want to hire our students.

Ann Sojka: (07:12)
And they come to our classrooms and they talk to students about what's a day in the life. What are the, the exciting parts about sales? 'Cause it's really fun, it's lucrative. Um, you're not sitting at a desk usually eights to five. You have to entertain customers. Super fun. Make a lot of money. We like that. And it's challenging too. Yeah. There, there are lots of challenges. And so our students get exposure across different industries, across different sales roles. Not everybody wants to be a hunter sales role. I personally love cold calling, but I don't want to be a hunter. I'm a vegetarian. So part of it is a, it's, it's the reframing the, the verbiage that's used. Yeah. And showing our students a lot of different types of people can be successful in sales, not the stereotype that is presented in the media.

Grant Freking: (08:01)
Right. No, I, I, no, I love that. Let's go, let's go to another pillar. Mm-hmm. Sales skills are life skills is my favorite one. Mm-hmm. What's an example of a sales skill that every student, whether they're going into finance, accounting, entrepreneurship, fashion, business - uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Should develop?

Ann Sojka: (08:19)
There's so many. I, I, I can. But, but I wanna give one specific one that I think really helps. Yeah. And I, in my classes, to relate to students because we, our, our, our, our s - program is inclusive to any student in any major in Lindner, which makes our, our conversations really robust and interesting in our classrooms. Yeah. And I recognize that not everybody's gonna go into professional sales, formal sales. But I like to compare sales to interpersonal relationships, you know, dating, family relationships. And so I think one skill every student learns in a sales course is how to adapt to your listener or your audience. Being adaptable. So we teach, um, adaptive selling, which helps students identify based on conversations and doing research with their customers, how those people make decisions.

Ann Sojka: (09:12)
I am an expressive. You may notice I use my hands a lot. I, my face is very expressive. I lean in. My voice gets really loud. And I can make decisions really quickly. I'm kind of impulsive. But most of my customers when I was in tech sales were not like me. Yeah. You know? They wanted data points. They didn't tr - just trust a salesperson because she was friendly and nice. They needed to take time, um, and run the data on their own. And they might take longer to make decisions. So as a good seller, uh, and a good person in a relationship, understanding how the other person p - receives information and makes decisions smooths out that, the decision making process. Um, and it really, I always say marketing and sales as a function of marketing, it makes you more empathetic because this is, this is a, um, throwback to when I was a student.

Ann Sojka: (10:09)
Mm. My professor, my sales professor, Dick Canada, always said, "We, sellers follow the platinum rule. Not the golden rule. Don't treat pe - don't treat people how you wanna be treated. Treat people how they want to be treated." And so that's a skill that our students learn in our sales classes. Give people information the way they want to receive it.

Grant Freking: (10:29)
How do the students, what's the feedback from students when they either, either maybe don't understand how they can do that or when they finally do pick it up and like the light bulb kind of, the proverbial light bulb sort of clicks on for that, what's the feedback from them on that?

Ann Sojka: (10:44)
Well, we start with having them figure out what type they are. Okay. Because everybody loves to know more about themselves. Yeah. So we have students take a quiz. Okay, w- what are you? And then I have the students talk to one another. Okay, let, when, when you are gonna buy, make a big purchasing decision, like where to rent an apartment or buy a car. And we go group by group. And they're usually, there are a lot of expressives in the group, people like me, but there are also a lot of people who, um, amiables, those people like, like to build a consensus. So we, we always have at least one person represented from the four, the four types of people. And it is fun. You see people's eyes light up and I go, "Do you know anybody else like this? It's, that is not like you." And they go, "Oh, that's my dad." Or, "Yep, that's my sister."

Grant Freking: (11:31)
Comes to them immediately, yeah.

Ann Sojka: (11:31)
It, it really does. And, and we give characteristics and examples. And so then right away, students, I get the feedback of, you know, I never thought to, to talk to my family member this way, and it made all the difference. Made it so much easier. And I also give, give concrete examples. Like I talk about a family vacation. Most people can relate to that, planning family vacation. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (11:55)
Or surviving it. But

Ann Sojka: (11:56)
Yeah, living through it. Uh, so how, how does each person in your family, h - what's their role and how, how do they make a decision? And so students, they like seeing the application, which is why sales and, you know, marketing is a function of, or sales as a function of marketing - uh-huh. Is fun to teach because it is so cross-functional. It, it applies in every area of our students' lives.

Grant Freking: (12:19)
Yeah. And we've, we've talked about this last thing I wanna touch on a little bit already. Um, sales as a problem solving, helping profession. Yeah. What are some of like, what are some of the clear or concrete examples that you provide to your students that really click with them, whether it's from like your own experience or maybe you adapt what you're telling to, if you're talking to an individual student who maybe is in your sales class, but is maybe if you're like trying to go into like finance. How do you - uh-huh. What are some of like the clear adaptive examples you give to them?

Ann Sojka: (12:45)
Well, salespeople change. They, they act in different ways throughout a sales cycle. So I talked to that about, to, to students about that. Mm. But it really starts, and I, I make the analogy of salespeople like a doctor. A doctor wouldn't give you a prescription without knowing what your symptoms are, without asking some questions about how long these have, you've been experiencing them and what do you wanna feel like? What's your outcome? So the same thing is true in sales. We need to ask questions, good questions, and make sure that these, that whatever solution we're providing is gonna add value to our customers. And that's the problem solving mindset. Great news for us and Lindner is our students are oriented toward problem solving. Yep. So that comes really naturally to them. And I think it excites a lot of students who think sales, again, is just about being persuasive.

Ann Sojka: (13:37)
It's really not. Yeah. You only maintain a long-term relationship with future opportunities to sell if you take care of your customers by helping them and problem solving for them. Yeah. Um, and you get to make a lot of money too, right? Like, so if you pro - solve your customer's problems, you get commission. And then you have future opportunities to continue to grow the business with that customer.

Grant Freking: (14:00)
Yeah, just keep maintaining and expanding that relationship. Exactly. Yeah. Well, the Grau Center has earned national recognition for producing, uh, outstanding sales talent. What experiences, let's talk specifics, do students have with the center that they simply cannot get in a traditional classroom?

Ann Sojka: (14:18)
This is one of the other things I love about sales. You can't learn it in a book. Right. Sales is learned by doing. And so we have a couple different ways that our students get good experience. We have student organizations that are co-curricular. Um, they, they're inclusive to everybody. So we have the sales leadership club. Um, we have a women in sales club and medical sales club. So these are for students who have an interest in sales and it allows them to network with each other. Really important. And we also have our partners who come. Um, people in the field who've done sales. So students can get an idea of different types of sales roles. That's really important. And then they can get the help in their resumes. Um, networking in a more organic fashion. Also, we have state-of-the-art sales labs. We're really fortunate. So, um, these are either single use rooms, one-on-one, or we have a couple of larger conference rooms that every single one of our 400 students enrolled in a sales class each, each semester, use to conduct a sales simulation.

Ann Sojka: (15:23)
So they practice all semester long, and we have corporate partners who act as a buyer, and students do a sales role play. Those are recorded, um, so the students can watch back and iterate. And a lot of the times, the tweaks are little. It might be things like how to have more confident body language or reduce filler words. But it gives students instant feedback. And then those are local, but on a national scale, we have a varsity sales team, which I'm really proud of this team. Um, and these students are typically around 25 to 35 students each year, um, who try out. And then specific students travel nationally to about six to eight competitions per semester where they, once again, compete in sales simulations with other students from top sales universities. And our students are known for excelling in these, um, in these competitions. Yeah.

Ann Sojka: (16:21)
In fact, we have students who, you know, get in, earn the top five positions out of hundreds of students. So it's good for our program. People recognize that the Grau Center for Professional Selling creates really strong sellers. Yeah. And for our students, they've been known to get job offers on the spot because it's a different way to show off skills than say like, uh, applying for a job online with your resume says, "I can do a sales role play." No, these shoo - these students show it in action. They demonstrate their competence. Uh, and so students walk away from, from being on those varsity sales team competitions, one with a lot of confidence, because they've gotten a lot of repetitions. They get great feedback. And two, more exposure to partners for job opportunities.

Grant Freking: (17:08)
Right. And I, I wanna circle back to the sales app re quick. Mm-hmm. And we're of course thankful to Jim Grau and all the support and other partners I've given to make that a reality. How has the lab changed, um, the way students practice and build confidence before they enter the workforce? Maybe beyond even sort of the one-on-one recordings or, um, and maybe even, uh, as a, as a follow-up to my question that which I haven't finished asking yet. Um, how do you break through stu - to students who may be intimidated by, by the sales lab too and kind of like coach them into like how this could be beneficial to them?

Ann Sojka: (17:41)
Mm-hmm. Those are my favorite experiences with students. Okay. Because back to our, our discussion about a misperceptions about sales, I have a lot of students who I think have a lot of potential, but they come to me and say, "I'm scared of public speaking. I don't think I could be in sales." I say, "Sales is not public speaking. It's one-on-one." Yeah. You know, so introverts tend to be actually really good in one-on-one conversations - Okay. Because they pause and listen. I'll speak for myself as an extrovert. I'm usually waiting for my turn to talk and then I talk and go, "Huh, I said that." You know, I don't really. I have to, I have to be, um, particular to try to slow down and think before I speak. So it's common for students to be really intimidated and fearful. What we do prior leading up to the final sales role play, which is in lieu of a, a, an exam.

Ann Sojka: (18:31)
Mm-hmm. We teach students a couple of skills to develop resilience. And this is where students, they, they learn these strategies at the beginning of the semester, and they have to write papers throughout the semester as challenges or disappointments or failures come up and report back on which resilience strategy they used and how it worked. So we're getting students right away to get comfortable with failing and bouncing back quickly. So we're, we're leading up to the sales role play. Mm. They already have some confidence under their belt that, you know, things have gone sideways already in the semester, and I know that I'm gonna live through it. Um, the fact is, the students, uh, that are most fearful a lot of times, they, they prepare the most. So a lot of times, almost always, students are shocked by how well they do. Uh, and we have our partners who act as buyers and always we get.

Ann Sojka: (19:27)
I, I'm so proud of the feedback we get because even the buyers say, "I can't believe these students can do this." You know, it is intimidating. Yeah. It is intimidating.

Grant Freking: (19:37)
I'm sure I get intimidated

Ann Sojka: (19:38)
Under that. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and yet students learn, "I did it." Whether they wanna go into sales or not, maybe they face their biggest fear and they overcame it. And that is beyond anything that I could hope for making an impact on students.

Grant Freking: (19:52)
Yeah. And they gained, as we say, a transferable skill.

Ann Sojka: (19:54)
Exactly. Yep.

Grant Freking: (19:55)
Um, well, we can't talk about anything in academia these, these days without talking about AI. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about how AI is changing, um, sales education. What parts of selling are becoming more automated in your experience and, and your research? And what human skills are becoming even more valuable?

Ann Sojka: (20:14)
Mm-hmm. Good news for sales educators. AI is taking away a lot of the operational tasks that salespeople don't wanna do anyway. Mm-hmm. They're not really that good at, maybe. So things like, um, coming up with lists for leads. Mm-hmm. That's a great tool for AI to do. They can easily find contacts for, for cold calling. Doing preparation and research ahead of a sales call. You know, still need to fact check it, but that, that's a great use for AI. Even transcribing conversations, super helpful as a seller, so you can be more present. You don't have to worry about taking notes. Let the AI do that for you. Mm-hmm. And building proposals, you know, starting to build proposals, those are great uses of AI, and they help sellers spend more time on what's more important, which is building relationships, having that adaptability to customers, that emotional intelligence to understand how customers are receiving information, what their challenges are.

Ann Sojka: (21:14)
Right. Um, and then delivering value in the terms of benefits. So solving a problem, um, with a specific tool - Yeah. Based on the customer's needs. Right. Those just get more important.

Grant Freking: (21:27)
Yeah. Let's wrap with. I'm gonna ask you for two different sales pitches.

Ann Sojka: (21:30)
Okay.

Grant Freking: (21:31)
One for students, how they can get involved, and maybe more importantly, why they should get involved. Yeah. And then for partners, um, not making it too much of a, of a, you know, a sales pitch, I guess, about what are the benefits and what are the, some of the previous experiences you've had with partners and the, um, positives and the overall good vibes they can, they can get out of that.

Ann Sojka: (21:52)
Yeah. For students, I would highly encourage students to take at least marketing 3000, confident selling. There are no prerequisites. And a lot of students love this class. First of all, for the format, there's usually one exam. The rest is all papers and it's all experiential learning and doing a sales role play. Also, if you wanna get a job, take a sales course. Uh, it gives you access to the sales expo, which we usually have almost 50 partners who want to come - Yeah, it's always.

Grant Freking: (22:22)
Hierarchies. It's always bumping. Yeah. It

Ann Sojka: (22:24)
Is. It is. And these students, they practice the skills required to ha - to feel really confident when they go up to recruiters. You know, how to deliver an elevator introduction to introduce yourself. Yep. How to start a conversation with somebody. Even if you, you don't wanna go into sales, do you wanna get, go on a date ever? Take a sales class. Um, the other thing is, w - every, all the sales skills that our students learn help them prepare for interviews too. So career-oriented students should take a sales course. They're, they're definitely gonna build confidence, confidence and skills. And they can prove it by saying, "I've done a sales role play." Not just saying, "I know, I read a book about it." Right. Exactly. So that's one reason for students. For partners, our partners love working with our students because they're highly motivated. You know, our students, they're really excited about selling.

Ann Sojka: (23:17)
They, um, most of the time have work experience already or, and they're really involved in student organizations. So what sales recruiters look for are people who are self-starters, who, uh, like to be active, who have resilient skills, and we teach those in our classes. The other thing that our recruiters and our partners really love about our students is, again, they didn't just read about sales in a book. They've all done a sales role play. So they know a sales process, and they also know, you know, some of the transferable skills, like how to identify what type of customer you're dealing with, and how to develop really good questions so that you can solve customers' problems.

Grant Freking: (24:01)
Yeah. Well, Ann, thank you for being here. This is great content. All about Lindner's sales education, Grau Center for Professional Selling. Really excited to see what the new academic year brings with all the work you guys are doing. So again, thanks for being

Ann Sojka: (24:14)
Here. Thanks, Grant. It's been great talking to you.

Grant Freking: (24:17)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Leigh, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you.

Leigh Fox: (00:34)
Yeah, no, thank you. It's always a pleasure. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
There, there are many things for us to explore today, but, you know, one of them is, is to dig a little bit into your personal story because, uh, I love your inspiration and I want others to benefit from it. And in particular, if we could, I, I'd love to talk about your experience as a first generation college student. I mean, you and your sisters were all first gen. Um, I'm increasingly just taken and I learned so much from the first generation students here. We've, we've doubled multiple years now. Yeah. The number of first gen. Um, but when you look back, what, what was that experience like and, and more maybe importantly, what lessons do you still carry from that time in your life navigating college as a first generation student?

Leigh Fox: (01:21)
Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I, you know, I'm, um, it was a complete unknown, you know, I think. Yeah. You, you go into it, especially with our background, like you go into it pretty blind. Like I didn't have a ton of help - uh-huh. . And guidance on, you know, what paths to take. You know, my mom was working full-time. You know, she was pretty, um, adamant that I go to college, right? So she was, for, for, for myself and my sister, she was, you know, I, I honestly, I always joke, like, I didn't know there was another option, right? Like it was like she talked about like, you're going to college, right? You know, and, and so I really didn't think there was, I thought that was the path and you just figured out - Right. The path, right? But figuring out the path was different.

Leigh Fox: (02:03)
Um, you know, I, like I said, I, I, I didn't have a lot of guidance. I knew at the time I liked science a lot. Mm-hmm. . And so I thouht, well, I'll, I'll go into science. And I started in veterinary medicine and realized, you know, I, I got a, um, I got a summer job at a vet and realized, you know, vets, world class vets don't cry every time. They have to put an animal to sLeighp. Oh, stop.

Leigh Fox: (02:27)
. And I literally cried every time. And, and, and even the vet that I was working for, he's a very, very nice gentleman. He was like, "Maybe this isn't the path for you." Right? Um, so, you know, I, I kind of, I, I went around the, the science route quite a bit. Um, ended up in geology, uh, honestly because I really liked, I like chemistry, but I, I always looked at chemistry in geology as sort of the natural essence of chemistry. Like it's, you know, I used to call it God's chemistry, right? Like this is how God does it. Yeah. Right. Chemistry is kind of man's imitation trying to figure out what God does naturally in the, in, in the world. And so I looked, I looked at that as, you know, like something I was just very interested in. But, you know, uh, it was, it was difficult for me.

Leigh Fox: (03:10)
Um, you know, I, I worked multiple jobs through college. I always had a job or two, uh, through college. Um, I, when I started my, you know, my college career, I had, I was working 40 hours a week and going to college full-time. And so, and, and again, you, you, you don't, as a young kid, you, you know, especially for, for me at least, I didn't realize - uh-huh. . What I was doing, right? I was just doing - You were just doing it, right? Yeah. And it was, it was one of my professors who, um, grabbed me because I was constantly falling asleep in her class. And she was like, "You, what's going on?" And I, and I, I apologize. I said, "I, I, I show up at work at 6:00 in the morning. I work until X. I then drive to, to class. I sit in class and I have to go to work after this." And she said, you know, she was like, "How, how many hours do you work?" And I said, "I work 40 hours a week." She's like, "You realize you're working two full-time jobs, basically, between college and..." And I, and I hadn't thought of it that way, you know?

Leigh Fox: (04:07)
So, but, you know, it's the, the, the sort of main thing I took from that, it's, you know, it's the work, right? The work ethic. And it's just put your head down and do it, right? I, I, and this is - Amazing what you can get done. Yeah. And, and this has happened a lot in my career. Yeah. I joke, you know, there's so many times in my career where I've, I've been given opportunities that I'm not even sure that I, like, looking back with experience that I would have said yes, like, you know, you, but it's this, like, naivety of, like, I just wanna, I just wanna do, right? And I'm gonna say yes, and I'm gonna figure it out. I, I sort of learned that with college. And college was a struggle for me. Um, you know, I went to public high school. I wasn't a great public high school student.

Leigh Fox: (04:42)
I'll, I'll be really honest. I was a, you know, b- between my parents being divorced and just being, you know, in that kind of environment. I was an angry kid. Yeah. I was, you know, I was very intelligent. I, I realized that after the fact. Mm-hmm. . But, you know, when I got to college, I had to teach myself how to study. I had to teach myself. I, like, I had to do all this stuff by myself. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you learn this, this independence and this work ethic that you carry, you know, kind of throughout not just college, but then, you know, college and beyond. And then, um, and then I went to grad school and, and look, I, I love grad school because I, I went to grad school here at UC. Mm-hmm. . Um, I, I always say it's, it's, it's absolutely changed the tra- trajectory of my life, right?

Leigh Fox: (05:23)
And I'm always, I will always be grateful. Um, I'll, I'll be grateful that they said yes, right? Because, look, they didn't have to say yes to a, a, a geology graduate who was working for Schlumberger at the time, who, you know, I wanted to get in my MBA. I had no business experience, right? Yeah. So I, I, I mean, I, I had personality, I think. I had a lot of personality. I walked in, I was like - I'm ready to go. I'm ready. I wanna be in your program, you know? And, and they said yes. And, um, I, look, it was hard work, but again, I, you know, you get through it and it truly did change the trajectory of my life. But I think the consonant was just hard work. You know, put your head down, do it. Yeah. And you'll figure it out.

Marianne Lewis: (06:02)
But I, I love that and that how well it's served as well. I think I hear another piece to it. If we could just talk a little about your own career and leadership. You are such a, a model of interdisciplinary learning. I mean, you just talked about geology, starting as, in the veterinary, moving to geology. But I also think of you as a musician with suits than rock and, and personal passions and then into business. Can you share a little bit about, uh, how you see these pieces fitting together or even do they need

Leigh Fox: (06:33)
To? No. I don't think they need to. Yeah. I've always, you know, I, I grew up, um, sort of, you know, watching my mom struggle to, like, you know, support three kids on her own with, with zero support, right? My dad disappeared. And so she had, she was doing it on her own, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, you watched, you watched that as a kid and growing up and you, you realize, like, you got one life, right? And I, I, I, I wanna be happy and I want the people around me to be happy. And, you know, if I'm not happy in something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna go figure it out. And I, and that is something I kind of promised myself early on, like, with jobs, with whatever it is. Mm-hmm. If I'm not happy doing it, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna figure something else out.

Leigh Fox: (07:18)
Um, so I, I think that's one driver. I, I'm also a huge believer that, you know, you can, you need to continue to challenge yourself with different things. Um, and I think I'm a, I, I'm a perfect example of that, right? I, I mean, I, I've done so many 180s, right? Mm-hmm. E- even within the company I'm at, you know, I, I never dreamt of being a CEO. I, I, I really didn't. I, I, I fell in love with finance when I was in grad school. Uh, I really, really liked finance. And my goal was to get into finance, to work my way out, you know, through finance orgs, to be an FPNA, to, like, learn about the company and to eventually become a CFO. I, I, I became a CFO at, like, 40, right? And so, and, and I really distinctly remember talking to my wife about, like, hey, I might have, like, peaked early, right?

Leigh Fox: (08:04)
I don't know. Like they say the average tenure of a CEO, CEFO is, like, four years. Oh, I don't know what we're gonna do after this, right? Like, I, you know, it was like this conversation of, we may have to move, right? So just, I wanna prep you. Um, and, you know, it, I was just fortunate enough to, to, you know, to be in a position where I could say yes to things. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, I, again, I never would imagine that I had, would've had this opportunity. Um, but it came, and it's so different than that. You know, a CEO is a very, very different job, right? Mm-hmm. And you learn that over time. Um, but between, you know, that, and, and look, I'm already thinking about, you know, I'm still pretty young. Mm-hmm. I've been in this job for a decade.

Leigh Fox: (08:45)
I'm not gonna be in it for another decade. Okay. Um, y- y - only because a- after a while you, you realize you might be holding the organization back. You're the old fogie, right? Like, so it, it, like, I'm already thinking about what's next. And candidly, like, what's next for me will likely be something completely different, right? Mm-hmm. I don't know that I'll go into business. I, I may go into music. I may do other things, right? Um -

Marianne Lewis: (09:06)
The 180s have served you well. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (09:08)
I, I, look, I, I just think, you know, you follow your passion, right? I, I've always done that. Um, I've, I've followed what feels right. Mm-hmm. And like I said earlier, and then you figure it out, right? You, I, like, you work hard. I get, I ask my kids all the time, right, like younger students, like, what's the formula? It's almost like, you know, when hear - They do. They want to - Oh yeah, they're like -

Marianne Lewis: (09:26)
They do wanna hear it. So

Leigh Fox: (09:27)
What's the formula for CEO? Right? Like, what, what plus what, plus what equals CEO in my career? And there is no formula, right? I, I am, and I am the absolute, you know, poster child for the fact that there's no formula. I sometimes joke like, well, do you have a geology undergrad? Because if you don't, I'm sorry, you know, you're not gonna get. Um, but the hard work piece. Yeah. So critical. Like you need, like, especially when you're young, just work hard and gain experience. And follow. And the hard work becomes easier when you're doing something you truly enjoy and you're passionate about. The hard work is a lot easier. When you're not doing something you enjoy, hard work - Much harder. Feels like hard work. Mm-hmm. Right? When you're doing something you're passionate about, it, it, it really is a lot easier. And I was, I've been very fortunate just to follow those, those paths, right?

Leigh Fox: (10:19)
Yeah. I,

Marianne Lewis: (10:21)
I, I mean, I think it's a, it's a, such a critical point around, uh, the hard work because in part you're saying, you know, some of these 180s, maybe all of them have been, "It's time. I'm not enjoying this fully. I'm gonna make a shift." But you didn't exactly take an easy next pivot. I mean, if, if I think about the Cincinnati Bell move when you joined in 2001, I mean, it was facing some very significant challenges. I think bankruptcy was actually a real concern, but it didn't scare you

Leigh Fox: (10:51)
Off. Well, I'm sure I, I, I, I, I might have been pretty naive at time. Okay, well then - As a, as a, as a young kid. Like I, I think - But you

Marianne Lewis: (10:57)
Saw something.

Leigh Fox: (10:57)
I did. You know, I, oh yeah. I mean, right away you knew something was wrong, right? You got into the, the, you, you got the job and like within months it was like something's amiss, right? Like people are very tense . And I remember

Marianne Lewis: (11:10)
Then - You also saw an opportunity. I,

Leigh Fox: (11:11)
You know - I mean you probably - I did. I, I think it wasn't, maybe it wasn't that I saw an opportunity. I was given opportunities. Okay. And I was, so, so I don't know that I would give myself as much credit as, but people saw something in me to say, "Go figure this out," and I would figure it out. And so they, like, they kept giving me these things to go figure out. And I would go somehow figure it out and just put my head down - Yeah. And work and figure it out. And to me, in that environment, it, you know, once, you know, I, I, I don't wanna paint the picture that I was like, you know, "Hey, there's all this tension. This company's not doing well and, you know, this is a great opportunity for me." There I go. I was nervous as everybody else, right?

Leigh Fox: (11:51)
Like I, I didn't know what was happening. And, but, but what I did know is that the people there were giving me responsibilities that I probably would never have gotten if I was somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Right? I definitely look back and I, I was given opportunities that were well beyond, I think, my experience level. And it, these were several, I think, sink or swim opportunities. Mm-hmm. And I just happened to swim, right? And I think that's, again, that goes back to, like, I put my head down. Yeah. And look, my graduate degree really taught me that. I love that. Your graduate degree, what it, the, the, the ma- massive thing that I gained from my graduate degree is, you know, UC will pile more work on you than you think you can do, right? Until you do it. Right? And then you realize you will figure it out.

Leigh Fox: (12:38)
And it's, it's this concept of, like, you just put your head down, you don't panic, and you put one foot in front of the other, and you just do the work, right? And you organize yourself and you do the work. You, you, and it's almost like tiers. Then you, okay, you've got, you've completed this. Now you go to the next thing, you do the work, right? It's no different in my career, right? Yeah. Um, and I think I was just lucky enough to, like, have people give me these kind of opportunities where it was a lot of hard work. I worked a lot of hours. It was sink or swim. I ended up, you know, surviving through it and thriving in it. And by the time you get out to the other end, you, you look back and you realize I've gained so much valuable experience and so much valuable knowledge.

Leigh Fox: (13:20)
And that's where I try to tell kids, that's when you become important, right? Mm-hmm. That's when you become valuable to an organization. When you put your head down, you do all this work. And then someone like me realizes I've got a person next to me that I can count on, that if a problem comes up, they're on it. I'm not ha - I don't have to worry about it. And their experience helps them level it, like, not panic, level, do the work, manage the people, get it done in the right ways, and move on. And that comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:50)
Oh, absolutely. A, a leader said to me recently, Leigh, and I just, man, I'm just holding it dear and thinking even about our students for the fall, that learning comes through three, three things. Comes through struggle, failure, and conflict. And it, and as I though about that, and it was, it was a funny line because he kept saying, "I just keep learning." It's like you have all three. But I also, I want students to see that's the double edged sword is, it's not saying you're gonna love it and it's gonna always feel great, but oh, there's magic in those challenges.

Leigh Fox: (14:23)
And what's, and it's, it's, it's really spot on. Um, you know, I think where the danger is for, for young people, and I, and I've seen this in, in people throughout, you know, my career that I've, I've dealt with, that when you wanna put the perfect resume together, right? Mm-hmm. And you wanna be the, you know, you wanna go, "Well, I'm gonna go do this job and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna just kill it and I'm gonna do a great job and I'm like, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ace everything I'm given, and then I'm gonna move to this thing and I'm gonna ace everything I'm given. And then I'm gonna ace everything I'm given over here." It doesn't work like that, right? Somebody, and I had this conversation earlier this week with a s - a, a graduate. They asked, you know, like, "What are some of the things you learn?" And I, I laughed.

Leigh Fox: (15:05)
I said, "You know, someone once told me, like, you hardly ever make a wrong decision. You seem like, it seems like you always make the right decisions." And I, and I laughed and I was like, "It's because I've made so many bad decisions." Right? And that's the, I mean, it's there's - People don't see that, right? But there's so much truth in it. It is. Like, you have to - I, I have myself. And I continue to. I continue to make decisions where I'm like, "Well, I'm gonna learn from that, right? Here's what I've learned from this like error." You know? And at a CEO level, what becomes really, um, important is that you have to realize you're, you're not going to get everything right. Mm-hmm. Your, your job is to solve problems and you're going to make mistakes. You're going to have errors in judgment, but you can fix them.

Leigh Fox: (15:49)
Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's just, at my level, some of my

Marianne Lewis: (15:53)
Errors - That resilience and confidence is so true. So

Leigh Fox: (15:55)
My errors are like hundreds of millions of dollars - Yeah, absolutely. Of like, "Hey, I've got to make this decision." Mm-hmm. What if you're off? Well, you have to understand how to pivot and correct. Mm-hmm.

Marianne Lewis: (16:05)
Right? And how to know quickly that you might be off, right?

Leigh Fox: (16:07)
Correct. Correct. And so that, that's the value in, in that experience. And so - That's good. You're never gonna stop making mistakes. And I hope you never do because that's how you learn.

Marianne Lewis: (16:17)
You know, I, I, let's talk a little bit about, more about kind of your leadership approach because you've had, and I mean, I, I can just name a few, but some very significant company defining strategic decisions in your career from the investment in fiber, the decision to go private, the rebrand from Cincinnati Bell to altfafiber. I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty to say the very least in those big ideas. I mean, I think my first question is can, what are the, what are the principles that ground you in that uncertainty of the big, big

Leigh Fox: (16:52)
Decisions? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I, for me, it's as simple as, you know, I've become very good at listening to my heart and understanding, like, if I feel like it's the right decision, then it's the right decision, and then going with it. Um, I learned really early on through watching people around me, both good and bad, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I, I've had a lot of great mentors and people around me that I've, um, I've, I've had the opportunity to work around that have been aw - incredible. Yeah. But, but I've watched them not only succeed in things, but make mistakes and things. And one of the things I learned really early on was that in business, momentum is key. Mm-hmm. Right? You can, you know, you can sit and overanalyze anything. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (17:35)
Paralysis.

Leigh Fox: (17:36)
Yeah. Oh. And it, and it happens. And it's easy to do. Mm-hmm. As leaders, you have to say, look, in my heart and through the, through the data and everything, look, I, look, I'm a, I'm a data geek, so I know what to look at and I've got the ex- experience in, like, why and what matters. And, but when, when you make the decision, make it. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and I've gotten to the point where I make decisions and I sleep well at night. Yeah. Because, because I, I've learned to make them for the right reasons. And that's the other thing that's a challenge, right? I think with leaders, you know, um, you, you, you, these roles are dangerous. Right? And I always say, like, the, the day I got the, the, the title, I became the funniest person in the room, right? You know, I became the most popular.

Leigh Fox: (18:21)
I became very highly paid, right? And I became, you know, and all of this can go to your head. It really can. Right? And I think the best leaders understand that immediately and find ways to counterbalance it and stay humble and, and divorce themselves from their egos, right? And just say. And I do a lot of things really actively, like, in, very intentionally to, like, manage my ego. Because I, I'm as, I'm human, right? I have an ego. And I - Okay. And I'll give you an example. Like, um, I, I, I love. There's an organization that my wife and I got involved with recently, and I, I won't, I won't name them. They're local. They do phen- phenomenal work. But, but, um, they actually called me up. The CEO called me up and said, "We'd like to give you this award." And I said, "You know, I really appreciate that, but that's not why we do what we do.

Leigh Fox: (19:13)
So I'm gonna have to decline." But I told her, I said, "Look, the, the reason is I, in, in my position, I get offered these things a lot." Uh-huh . And I say no more than I say yes. The reason I say no is because I'm trying to man - I don't want it to be, I don't want that to turn into why you do things. Mm-hmm. And I think if you're, if you're thrown accolades all the time, I, I'm a human being. Like you get used to it and that starts. Yes. And that starts becoming the engine. The driver. The driver and why you do things. And I think it's always helpful to have things that, that you consciously do to manage that, that part of you. I love that with intentionality. Yeah. And, and look, music is another thing. I think you and I have talked about this before.

Leigh Fox: (19:58)
Mm-hmm. I, I started taking music very seriously because it's so humbling. It is. Right? I take jazz, right? Yeah. I, I still, look, I've been taking jazz now for 10 years. I still leave lessons like I'm an idiot. Like, like I, but I'm getting better and better and better and better at it. It, one, it, it, it, it's a la - it's a language. Music is a language. It is. So I'm learning a language. Two, I, it's a language that I'm not familiar with and I have no background in, right? And so learning to read music as an example in my 50s, right? Challenging. Humbling, right? Every time I pick the instrument up, it's humbling, right? And I tell people, you have something in your life that humbles you. Mm-hmm. Right? That keeps you grounded and balanced, right? And then your family always keeps you balanced.

Marianne Lewis: (20:48)
They're very helpful with that.

Leigh Fox: (20:49)
They're great at knocking you down as soon as you feel, you know, a little too high on yourself and wham. I've got so many stories about that I could tell, but.

Marianne Lewis: (20:59)
You know, I, I, I, I love that example of, of music as well. And, and you and I have talked about that before. I was thinking about it actually related this morning. There was a great article about the power of sports with the World Cup. And I thought similar to music, there's one, there's the, the people around you, right? Yeah. This, even if it feels like it's an individual accomplishment, there are others. Yeah. Like think about jazz, just the power of a jazz ensemble. But I think about soccer and just the flow of going on. But the other piece is there is always, always, always a level above. Mm-hmm. In fact, there are many. Yeah. And, and it's humbling even as you get, you feel so good, you go, "Oh my goodness." Oh. That's a - Wow. Transcendental.

Leigh Fox: (21:42)
As a musician, the last thing you wanna go on is g- g- go, you never wanna go online and Google good guitar players, right? Like, like you're gonna go, I'm gonna quit because that kid looks like he's eight and he is way better than I am. So, right? And it's, it's absolutely true. Yeah. Right? It's - It is. There are so many naturally talented people. And it really what you have to like, what you start to figure out is you give yourself grace on like learning. Yes. And the, the constant development and the, the learning. And that's the piece that I'm, I'm, I'm such a big believer in. And, and it's the reason why I still do what I do because I'm still learning every day. I'm still, there's still things in the business that change where I'm like, "This is so cool. I've not experienced this before." Uh, whether it's a kind of a leadership change or like some kind of cultural change or some kind of business change or, you know, com- competitive change.

Leigh Fox: (22:31)
It's, it's like, it's constantly evolving and we're constantly changing. It's like, it's always giving us things to learn. And, and if you don't have that, you know, I always tell people, look, that's one of the key elements in, in any kind of work. You want to look for, you know, do you, do you work with good people? Mm-hmm. Are you treated fairly? And, and are you learning? Like, and if you have those three components - Yeah. It's

Marianne Lewis: (22:53)
A secret sauce.

Leigh Fox: (22:54)
You doing pretty well, right? Mm-hmm. And so even if you're like looking at the grass being greener somewhere else, I would take a pause and really, really consider what you have because those are three very special things.

Marianne Lewis: (23:06)
You can make so much of them. Yes. As well. Um, y- y- you, you, you've mentioned, uh, your, the organizations you give back m- more as a volunteer and, and you're so involved. I mean, at UC alone, you're the, you're the chair of our UC Foundation, which is a, a big role and so valued from all of us here at UC. You're on my cabinet, which I, I always value your, your critical friendship. Um, United Way. I mean, I, I know that's a long list, but I think something I really a- always try to help, especially our students understand, because it goes, "Wait a minute, this is a very busy person." And we could start running through all this and you go, "Why?" Yeah. Yeah. Could, could you share a. I mean, what's the intrinsic motivation there? Yeah. I - 'Cause it's stretching you, I'm sure.

Leigh Fox: (23:54)
Yeah. Some, sometimes it, it does. Um, you, you get used to the, the cadence and - Yeah. The schedule. I, I've learned, I've gotten a little better at managing, you know, like I've learned you can't be chairs of three organizations at once, right? Okay. Mm-hmm. So, so, you know, that's, that's pretty, that's, again, learning, constant learning. Um, but I, I, at some point in my career, I, you know, I was working really hard. I was being rewarded. I was being promoted and it just didn't feel good. And so I had this conversation with a good friend of mine who were, you know, worked with us and, and I was talking to him about it. And he's like, "Do you ever think about getting involved?" And he mentioned an organization here locally, uh, Cancer Free Kids. And, um, and I, and I went to one of their dinners and, and I, I kind of realized that that was the piece of, that was the piece of my life that I was, I was missing, right?

Leigh Fox: (24:49)
I was, I was so fortunate to come, to be where I'm at and come from where I came from. Mm-hmm. That, you know, part of me just wanted to give back that for, like, that fortune. Like to say, look, it, it's as important to pay it forward, right? Yeah. T others, right? And it's like the scholarships here. Yeah. And the reason why I love being involved with the foundation. And like these are very important things when you're fortunate enough to, you know, experience the things in life that I've experienced. You have to take a responsibility and give back. And I, I really feel like it, it is our responsibility as leaders. Mm-hmm. And I think most leaders think like this, right? There are obviously, I think, those out there that, that may not, but I think the vast majority of leaders - That's a great ones too.

Leigh Fox: (25:33)
The vast majority of leaders think about, like, look, giving back is a key part of, of. And, and they want to from, from the heart, right? And, and so that sort of shifted in my life and, um, and then, you know, like as you get higher up in an organization, you get more opportunities to give back also. And I think that's important. Um, and so the more I was asked, you know, the more I got engaged with different organizations. And then again, learning, right? Mm-hmm. I learned the things that, like, I was passionate about, the things that maybe I wasn't as passionate about. Sure. And so you learn where your involvement is important because you do wanna follow your passion, especially when you're giving back in, in a philanthropy, uh, kind of philanthropic situation. But, you know, it, it was natural. And, um, it's honestly a very important part of my job now.

Leigh Fox: (26:23)
Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other piece is - I think it shows. Well, and, and look, it's, it's not all, you know, totally selfless. Um, part of being a CEO is getting out in the community and meeting people. Right. I have met more people in the community and more leaders and built more relationships through being involved with organizations like the Chamber, Arts Wave, United Way, like what name the organization. You get to know people at a whole nother level when you're involved at that, in those organizations. And, and that's, that's truly important. And people get to know you at another level. You know, you, they become, you're not just the CEO of altafiber, you're, you're Leigh and, you know, I've gotten to know Leigh. And, and that's massively important. It is. Right? And so don't underestimate the value of that as, as, as, as you grow in your career, if you're young.

Leigh Fox: (27:14)
It's so important to have that tentacle too and get to, get people to get to know you in that, in that sense also.

Marianne Lewis: (27:21)
I, I just love that point, Leigh. I mean, I, I, I've seen that in our United Way board. It gives me a new respect, not only for the individuals, but for our city, that you can, you can fill a room with leaders of that caliber. Talk about time, tra - talent and treasure. Yeah. I mean, the expense of that room, let alone the incredible wisdom. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (27:44)
It's cool. It's cool. It's

Marianne Lewis: (27:45)
Cool. It is. I always leave just going, man, we have a great city. Yeah. We can care about each other. We care about making it better. And we're all coming at it from different angles. It's not inspiring. Imagine what we can do.

Leigh Fox: (27:56)
Yeah, it's really inspiring. And then you, you, I think it's also a, again, I go back to staying humble and, and, and understanding that you, you s - you really do get a, a really good understanding that people aren't as fortunate as you are. Mm-hmm. And there's a need in the community. Sure. And -

Marianne Lewis: (28:14)
Talk about humbling. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (28:15)
And, and you, you do have a. I, I feel like I have an obligation as a leader in the city - Yes. To try to do everything I can to lift the city, right? Mm-hmm. And the community up as, as much as I can. So if I can do that by using s - talents that I have, you know, grown through business and I can do, then, then trans - you know, transplant those talents and try to solve problems -

Marianne Lewis: (28:35)
And they are transferable. They are. Absolutely.

Leigh Fox: (28:40)
I just, we, look, I, you know, I'm chairing the United Way, you

Marianne Lewis: (28:42)
Know, campaign

Leigh Fox: (28:43)
Business. I know. And so we ha - Thank you. We had a, well, it's a great, it's, honestly, it's an honor. And we had a great meeting yesterday, Moira and I, and the, the CEO of the United Way. Mm-hmm. And we, we had a great meeting with, with someone. And we were explaining about just how the United Way has developed, um, from where it was to where it is today and how it is really building a foundation that I'm now starting to see hope of solving very difficult long term problems.

Marianne Lewis: (29:10)
Yeah. The more wicked problems. Yes. Right. Systemic.

Leigh Fox: (29:13)
The systemic problems. And you can see - I see that too. Path forward and you're like, it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but my gosh, these building

Marianne Lewis: (29:19)
Blocks - We're all rowing in the same direction and that's exciting.locks

Leigh Fox: (29:21)
Are starting to come together. Yeah. Right? And it's things like that. I mean, I leave meetings like that and I'm jazzed. Right? I had a great day the rest of my day yesterday from that one meeting. Yeah. Because I was so excited about, like, I love hearing and talking about this stuff and, and getting people to unders - like you see the light bulbs go off and others are like, "Wow, right? This is cool stuff." Like yeah, it really is.

Marianne Lewis: (29:44)
Um, you know, I'd love to, to get your views on, on our, our future leaders here at, at UC. I mean, if, if I may, and you know this well from, from serving on the cabinet. We invented co-op, but we're really making a step change to think of. About co-op not as a, a thing you do and experience you have, but as this engine to transformational learning that happens, including in an MBA who's not doing a traditional co-op, but it's the connective tissue between s - absolutely our partners in the city and an industry and our alumni link to our faculty and staff experts and then always with the students in mind. And how do you get that working as a, an engine that hums and helps challenge and push and energize - Yeah. The learning that's possible. I mean, that's what wakes me up every day because it's so exciting to see the changes in students that are possible.

Marianne Lewis: (30:40)
But you sit in a different seat, you know the change is happening in the industry, what qualities do you think are just critical that we're, we use that engine to hone? Uh,

Leigh Fox: (30:52)
That's a great question. Um, you know, what we look for, and, and we, we see this in certain young people that we, we've hired, we've been honestly amazed at some of the things that come out of some of the young folks, even interns that we see come through the organization. Um, critical thinking i- is in, in problem solving - uh-huh. In, in that, in that like creativity, like the, the combination that like trifecta - Yeah. Is going to be massively important, right? I think understanding the tech is going to be like a baseline. Mm-hmm. Right? Table stakes. It's going to be like table stakes, right? I agree. Like we're going to kind of assume you understand the tech. Like right now I - No,

Marianne Lewis: (31:31)
We better make sure they live up to that assumption. I

Leigh Fox: (31:33)
Assume because you're X younger than I am, that you're way better at the tech than I am, right? It's, it's combining their knowledge of the tech with my experience in business and trying to get them to understand sort of my experience in the business. And you know, learning quickly, what you see out of the, these kids is like they can absorb things very quickly. Yeah. And, you know, I've said this to you before, like the, you know, when I, you hear so many things about the, like the young people. You do. And I, I laugh. I'm like, you know, you go back to the 60s and I'm sure they said the same thing, the 70s, they said the same thing. Every generation looks at the youth and they're like, "We're done," right? And every time somebody, I hear that, I'm like, "Go, go spend some time at UC."

Marianne Lewis: (32:19)
It's true.

Leigh Fox: (32:20)
Like go, you

Marianne Lewis: (32:21)
Have hope and faith in this next generation.

Leigh Fox: (32:23)
Yeah. If you think that, go spend some time with, with some of these students. I agree. Because they're rock stars. Like I, I do, you know - And

Marianne Lewis: (32:29)
They're different.

Leigh Fox: (32:30)
They're different. They are. But man, they are rock stars. I love so. Right? And you know, I think getting them the experience in business and getting them in the right places, and I, I think getting them to understand also that I think some of them come in with expectations that are like, you know, like when I get questions like, okay, what are the three steps to CEO? Right? Well, there's probably gonna be more than three steps, right? Mm-hmm. I, I think understanding that it's going to be work, right? And I actually say this, I got this from my, my former boss and it's like, I, I, I don't know how many times, I totally ripped this off and I'm sure he ripped it off from somebody, but I love it. I say it so many times that, you know, he, you know, he said, you know, in your 20s, you party.

Leigh Fox: (33:14)
In your 30s, you learn. In your 40s, you earn. In your 50s, you mentor. In your 60s, you get out. Right? And if you look at a career, that's not that far off, right? And for, for 20 and 30 year olds, what they have to understand is, one, enjoy life, but work really hard in the world. Really hard. And it's going to take time. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and the expectations to earn and like all these things that like these, these glittery things that people in front, it will come. Yeah. Right? But it comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (33:44)
And climbing that learning curve and - Correct.

Leigh Fox: (33:46)
Correct. It comes with experience. So give yourself a little bit of grace. Work hard. Mm-hmm. And understand that's gonna, gonna happen. And the other thing I try to impart on, on kids is that like, do it while you're young because, you know, your life changes too, right? Like, you know, look, I, I got married at like, you know, 30 something and, you know, you start having kids and, you know, that's a change, right? And I mean, when I had my first kid, my priorities flipped overnight. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (34:15)
Literally.

Leigh Fox: (34:16)
And then yeah, overnight. I know. And, and, and whether that's a path you want or not, it doesn't matter. There are going to be life changes that are, you're going to experience that your priorities may shift and that's okay. Right. But take advantage of the time you have in the situation you're in, understand it, and just work really hard and learn. Mm-hmm. And it's that, that's how you gain experience, right? And then, but, but before you know it, you're gonna turn around, you're gonna be like, "I know all this. This is great. I am in a place where I feel comfortable. I am earning. I am like all this stuff you, you've - Exactly. I am the CEO now, right? You know, who, you know, trust me, you've got a f - plenty of CEOs in this building that you're teaching,

Marianne Lewis: (34:54)
So. Oh, we do. I, I appreciate that. And, and I just appreciate you, Leigh. I appreciate your wisdom, your engagement. I think the put your head down, work hard, just learn through the grind, but also - Have fun with the ground. Yeah, have fun and lean into the problems. Yeah. I mean, those challenges will pay off.

Leigh Fox: (35:13)
You know, the one thing that I, I would probably, you know, you know this about kind of my style too. Like I try to, I use humor alot - uh-huh. To, to, to break tension. I do that very intentionally, right? Because, you know, this is another thing I, I got from being young and watching my mom struggle. It's like, you know, like, look, there are much more serious things in life. Yeah. Right? What, what we do is serious and we, we do take it very serious, but we're not, you know, saving lives. Mm-hmm. And we're not, I'm, we're not a doctor on a, you know, with a patient on a table. You know, have - Look for ourselves. Yeah. Make fun of yourself. Right? Have some fun, right? Enjoy, enjoy each other, right? Break the tension. Mm-hmm. Try to enjoy the situations you're in. Um, and I think that's critically important also.

Leigh Fox: (35:55)
I think we, we, we, especially with what's going on in society and all the tension in society right now, just, you know, treat each other with kindness and, you know, have fun with one another and realize that, like, we're so similar, right? Everyone across the world. I mean, I, you mentioned the World Cup earlier. Yeah. I think, look, that's one thing that I absolutely love seeing from the World Cup is that - I just love it. Like, you, you get - It's my heart full. Oh, I, you really do. You get people, and we tell our kids this. Uh, and I, I was lucky enough to travel as a, a young, a young man. You learn that everyone around the world's similar. Mm-hmm. Right? They all have similar, you know, hopes and dreams and passions and like - Yeah, that's true. Y- you are so much in common with the people around the world that, like, just realize that and, and get to know people and be kind and serve others and just, just really.

Leigh Fox: (36:43)
And I say that. It, like, if you asked. I have a tagline, like, in, in our organization. I just, I, oh, I end everything with be safe, be kind, and serve others, right? And, and I'm serious about it. Like just, just,

Speaker 4: (36:55)
You know - It's a good

Leigh Fox: (36:56)
Tagline, Leigh. Be kind to people and enjoy things. Enjoy building those relationships and, um, you know, and, and good things will happen naturally. They

Speaker 4: (37:05)
Absolutely will. Right. Thank you, Leigh. Yeah. It's been

Leigh Fox: (37:07)
A pleasure. Yeah, always.

Grant Freking: (37:09)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Brendon, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you.

Brendon Cull: (00:35)
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
I, I, I find your career journey really quite remarkable. I mean, you've worked in government, corporate affairs, political campaigns, and now regional leadership. I, I wanna start by having you look back if you would. Which experiences most shaped how you perceive leadership today?

Brendon Cull: (00:57)
Um, you know, I have e- e- enjoyed, like you said, a very - mm-hmm. Diverse career with different experiences, uh, in business, uh, corporate world, um, in a, in a world like mine now at the chamber where I'm, I intersect with business and government and civic leadership at times. I worked in politics, like you said, I worked in the mayor's office, uh, for Charlie Luken when he was the mayor for five years. Um, and I think that if there was a, if there was one experience that, that really did shape influence in leadership, it was that the, the time that I worked, uh, for the mayor in, in 2001, and most people know Cincinnati's history is that 25 years ago, uh, this year, uh, is the, the anniversary in April of 2001, uh, a young man, uh, named Timothy Thomas, uh, was killed in an incident with the Cincinnati police officer in, in downtown Cincinnati.

Brendon Cull: (01:49)
Um, and that led to several days of rioting and unrest in downtown Cincinnati. And I was in the mayor's office at the time. Mm. Uh, and it was a small, small team, uh, in the, uh, le- leading city hall. Uh, and I got to see up close, uh, I think a, a great leader, uh, in my, my former boss, Charlie Luken, uh, really helped steer the city through that crisis. Um, but in addition to seeing him, I got to see some of our best business leaders in this community step forward and look for ways to help this community thrive and recover and put ourselves on a path to where I think we are now, which is a much better and a much more connected city. And we can talk about all of the things that happen in the, in the, in the 25 years since then.

Brendon Cull: (02:35)
But, you know, in that one particular week, you saw elective leadership, you saw business and CEO leadership and in some ways you saw activist leadership. You saw, um, people who were, uh, f - you know, frustrated by the current conditions looking for ways to shape change. Yeah. And it, it was, it, it all ha - it, it all, you know, obviously it wasn't everything that just happened in the course of that week. It was, uh, years of things that had built up to that moment and then years of work after that moment. Mm-hmm. Um, but to see individuals and how they chose to think about their city, how they chose to make change, how they chose to use influence in their voice - mm-hmm. Uh, in service of a bigger cause, um, it's hard to not, you know, go through life and think about the lessons from that, that particular week.

Marianne Lewis: (03:22)
I mean, that's a, that's a powerful learning experience you had there,

Brendon Cull: (03:27)
Brendon. I mean, I was, I was 20-something. I mean, the first time I answered the phone from, you know, I, I, I went on to have a career where I, I dealt a lot with the media over, over my life, but the first time I talked to a reporter, you know, was picking up the phone and having someone say, "This is so - and-so from CNN, and we're calling to come into town to talk about what's going on in Cincinnati, Ohio." Um, and so it was in some ways, uh, baptism by fire. Mm-hmm. I mean, you learn a lot in a, in a crisis moment like that. Um, but I also worked for someone who, you know, really prioritized building, I think, trusting relationships - mm-hmm. With the people in the community. Um, you know, Charlie Marleuca at the time had decades of relationships that he called upon in the business community and the civic community and the nonprofit community, um, in neighborhoods.

Brendon Cull: (04:15)
Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I, that will never, I'll never forget that because I really see that as, um, the kind of model of leadership is that those relationships that you have have to go across, uh, this entire community, particularly if you're gonna try to make change in a community, if you're try- trying to be someone who is, you know, a person of influence and a person of leadership in a community. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (04:35)
Uh, something you just said about just if you want to make change. I mean, th- this has changed around wicked problems in many cases. Absolutely. And I love personally just l- listening to the power of that example. And yes, you were sitting in the mayor's office and, and to some that might seem like a real seat of power and influence. And I'm not saying it isn't, but it's the weaving together of organizations and individuals that is a, to me, I, I hear you saying a really powerful takeaway.

Brendon Cull: (05:07)
It was. I mean, I remember and, you know, there was, there was, there were multiple times where the, the mayor and, and, you know, uh, I was with him for a lot of the, that week, but I, I don't want to overstate my influence, but I was certainly there for all, for all of that that was going on, you know. There was one room where, you know, you had folks from the Urban League who were thinking about what was going on in the community and then he would, you know, leave out of that room and there was a handful of people working on a different subject from the business community. You had the, you know, police department, so you were managing the actual fact that there was, there was still a crisis in a, in a community. Um, to be able to hold a bunch of, um, a bunch of urgent issues in your mind at the same time and act on them in a coordinated fashion is, that's a real, um, that is a real leadership trait.

Brendon Cull: (05:53)
Absolutely. And I think it's under, underappreciated. You know, we, we like to say, "Oh, CEOs are going to tackle this one, one big problem." Most CEOs never have the luxury of saying, "I'm going to focus on just one big problem."

Marianne Lewis: (06:03)
They're all interwoven.

Brendon Cull: (06:04)
Yes. They're thinking about what, what's interwoven. Mm-hmm. And they're thinking about, you know, what is going on inside their organization. And in this particular case, it's what's happening outside the organization. Mm-hmm. What's happening that is outside the organization that's affecting what's inside. Um, and so, you know, I, I, I have certainly been shaped by, by the time in that office. Mm-hmm. Again, not just with the mayor, but I think about some of the business leaders. M- Michael Fisher - Yes. Uh, John Williams, who was both, who were predecessors of mine as now CEO of the chamber were both, you know, frequent, frequently engaged. Janet Reed, Dr. Janet Reed who I had, had known for a long time already, um, when I was there, uh, who was deeply involved. Father, Father Graham, uh, president of, of Xavier University - Zavier. Mm-hmm. If we're allowed to mention Xavier - Of course we are.

Brendon Cull: (06:53)
On this wonderful b - uh, Bearcats podcast. Uh, and, um, uh, Charlotte Otto from Procter & Gamble - Yeah. And, uh, Jim Zimmerman from Macy's and Joe Pickler from Kroger. And these were, I'm sure I'm forgetting some folks, but they are legends in our business community. Yeah, they are. Truly. Um, who rolled up their sleeves and said, um, our job as business leaders is also to think about this community that we are in.

Marianne Lewis: (07:17)
I, I think you know, Brendon, that I, I study tensions and I see them everywhere. And one of the, the principles I've come to, to find is that the more stakeholders you are accountable to, the more tensions you experience and the more interwoven that they are. Yeah. And I think what you're describing is a, a really re - powerful re - connection across a lot of stakeholders. And with leaders who understand their role is to navigate and lead, but not necessarily to just solve. It's just, it's so much bigger than that.

Brendon Cull: (07:51)
Totally. It's so much bigger than that. It's, it's thinking about, uh, the connectedness of, of, you know, issues in a community. You know, we went through this process right after that. Um, again, this was 25 years ago this year. We're, we're recording this in June of 2026. This was, uh, you know, it all happened in 2001. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the, there was an organization that was created called Cincinnati CAN, uh, Community Action Now, and that included business and civic leaders from all over the community to think about, uh, uh, issues related to police community relations, issues related to economic development, issues related to, you know, the Minority Business Accelerator, which is now the Cincinnati Business Accelerator - Yes. Part of the Cincinnati Chamber, um, was created out of that effort. Uh, a lot of the police reforms, um, though there was a collaborative agreement in a Department of Justice investigation, um, they were centered around that table.

Brendon Cull: (08:40)
And so you had a hundred civic leaders, business and civic leaders coming together and they not only offered and suggested solutions and ways of working, they also connected with each other and built a level of trust in the community. And so, um, in some ways I see those relationships still today. Um, and that, that is a, um, I think, you know, out of that tragedy, there is an advantage in this community is that it did bring together some, um, disparately connected individuals in service of a larger, uh, uh, a, a larger, uh, more, um, uh, hopeful vision of our, our city.

Marianne Lewis: (09:18)
L- let's, let's go a little further into, into your career, your journey, um, right? That was 2001. Mm-hmm. Um, you then, you then had some different roles after that. And I'm curious, because now you are sitting in the chamber as its CEO. It's a tremendous organization. But you, you had choices between 2001 and now of where you felt like you should be seated for meta - you know, metaphorically speaking to have the greatest impact. Can you share a little bit about how you made the move to finally decide, you know what? I wanna be at the city regional level level and not necessarily, for example, at a, an organizational level, which you certainly have done as well.

Brendon Cull: (10:06)
Um, yeah. I, I, you know, I wish there was a, um, my career path is non-traditional. It's not like I've gotten on one and stayed in one particular lane. Um, that works for me. It doesn't work for everybody. You know, I, I appreciate the, the different adventures. Um, and in fact, when Jill Meyer, who's my most recent predecessor at the chamber called me and, and invited me to come join her team, um, her text message to me, which I saved and, and referenced with her quite a bit was, um, "I'm looking for someone who appreciates a good life-changing adventure when it comes along." And really that was my, my, uh, leap off the diving board into the coming over to the chamber is that I knew it would be a little bit of a life changing adventure from going to, going from corporate America, um, there.

Brendon Cull: (10:48)
But what I think was, um, I think what define, what's, uh, a defining, um, mission for me - mm-hmm. Um, and I, that sounds really heady, but I, I don't, most people don't sit down and think about what their mission is, but, um, what I have seen and experienced in this community time and time again, uh, is that when business and civic leaders, uh, and that includes academic and nonprofit and grassroots leaders when, and when, when they come together in service of something bigger, um, they can solve a big difficult issue in a community. Yeah. And every time I've seen that, I have been inspired by it, but also interested in making sure that we pass that legacy onto future generations so that people who in, in an era where you've, where because of our phones and because of so many other things, we feel disconnected from other people, that you know that these networks and connect- connections still work.

Brendon Cull: (11:45)
And so, um, I, you know, I, I don't know if there's a defining moment, but what, what I get up for in the morning is making sure that we can teach in some way, uh, or help leaders who are in positions of authority and influence today understand the power that they have to make this a better place. And so, um, you know, I participated in Leadership Cincinnati, uh, you know, 15

Marianne Lewis: (12:16)
Years

Brendon Cull: (12:16)
Ago. So did I. I love it. It was wonderful. Wonderful. And I really put conversations in there. I, I wanted people to understand that if you make yourself a little bit vulnerable - mm-hmm. To coming out of your business or to coming out of City Hall and connecting with other folks as part of that tension, because you're, you, like you said, you're - It is. There's tensions there. Mm-hmm. You, I can just do my thing, but if I open myself up to other conversations and other individuals, um, that - Not very

Marianne Lewis: (12:42)
Comfortable always.

Brendon Cull: (12:43)
It's not comfortable always. Uh, and there's, and particularly in this moment in time in our community, there's risk. And, um, so if there's a mission of mine, it is to make sure that we are helping leaders in this community get comfortable with that tension, get comfortable with that risk - mm-hmm. And say, "Yes, I do have a role to play in the future of this

Marianne Lewis: (13:04)
Community." I, uh, there are a couple of lessons I, I, I, I hope that these podcasts, because I get to have wonderful people. Michael Fisher was on recently. One is that nobody's path is straight. I mean, not even by a long shot. I think yours is fascinating because you are jumping sectors, not just organizations. Yeah. Which I haven't, I don't see as much and I love. Um, but the second is that it, it takes the whole person. I mean, I, I love the way you think about this. We, we, maybe this sounds a, a bit tangential, but I, I worry sometimes for the younger generations that they can feel quite negative about the rate of change and the ability to change in a polarized and, and especially with social media, a very negative world. Yeah. But we have the, we have the blessing of time.

Marianne Lewis: (13:57)
We know things change. We know people make an impact all the time. Yeah. And I, I want to make sure we continue to instill that, not just hope, but motivation to be the change because it, it takes people.

Brendon Cull: (14:12)
Yeah, it absolutely does. And it takes, you know, I mean, the Gen Z, we've, we've done some work at the chamber. My colleague, Audrey Treasure, who leads our Workforce Innovation Center has done some work on, on Gen Z and we did some focus groups and it, it's really fascinating. And anytime I get the chance to spend time with college students today or university students, recent graduates who talk about kind of what their experience has been like, I'm, I'm fascinated by - mm-hmm. And I'm looking for those nuggets of what are you interested in? Yeah. What do you want your world to be like? It's often different from the world that we're in today, but they're not, um, there's no shortage of opinions on it. Um, if, if anything, it's a, um, h- help me figure out how to get into this swim lane, help me figure out how to get into a, a, a place where I can, um, it's not just about it making change either.

Brendon Cull: (15:03)
You know, some changes are, you can make change in some. I'll tell you a funny story.

Marianne Lewis: (15:08)
Oh, good.

Brendon Cull: (15:09)
We're, we've gotten really heavy really quickly. I'll

Marianne Lewis: (15:11)
Tell you a funny story. That's right. Let's, uh,

Brendon Cull: (15:13)
Let's do a funny story. I graduated from Xavier. And when I was a student senator, I, I, I started out in the kind of peace and justice world. Okay. And then I decided to run for student senate mostly because I was frustrated by, I didn't feel like the peace and justice programs were getting their fair share. So I said, "Well, I'll go beyond student senate and I'll make sure that they, you know, are attended to. " Well, then I got really into student senate as people who touch politics are, uh, it tends to happen. My big project when I was at Xavier as a student senator in senior year was changing, getting the university to change the toilet paper in the dorms from one ply to two ply. This was big, big news. It was on the front page of the Cincinnati Enquirer - Okay. In 1999.

Brendon Cull: (15:55)
So my first big headline was - Went all in. Was some pretty small change stuff. Uh, and so I like to think that we've probably tried to go onto some more consequential, uh, efforts. It has

Marianne Lewis: (16:04)
To start somewhere, Brendon.

Brendon Cull: (16:05)
But it has to start somewhere. It does. Uh, and so, um, I don't, I, you know, there are some things that are, that are, uh, small changes to make, but some of it is you can change culture in your world or in your neighborhood by just how you show up. And if you are the kind of leader, you might be a mid-level manager on an accounting team and you are doing an awesome job in your work and you are contributing to the company and making it a better organization and contributing to the bottom line. And if you go one step further, if you help bring the outside in, if you help think about what's going on in the world around you, you are gona go from a really great leader to the, the highest level excellent of leader because you're seeing what's happening outside the walls.

Brendon Cull: (16:49)
And so part of this, it's, it's not just about saying, "I'm gonna take up a cause." Mm-hmm. It's about understanding the world in which you're in, the history, the trends, uh, the needs, and then thinking about how your organizations and the people around you can contribute to what that future looks like.

Marianne Lewis: (17:07)
Well, I think, I think that's a, that's a great segue to talk a little bit more about leadership. I mean, you've already shared some names of individuals that truly are legends of Cincinnati. Um, I'd, I'd love to hear your view on what leadership qualities have really stood out to you of, from those who are able to not just move their organizations, but the city forward. What do you look for?

Brendon Cull: (17:32)
What do you see? It's, uh, you know, I've, I, I mentioned the names and not to name drop, but, uh, because it is, uh, I'm so fortunate to have had that, had exposure to these kinds of individuals. Yeah. And not to cross sector into Grant is our producer here, but his uncle's podcast I was on. I, I, you know, so I'll use a Reds reference here. Um, this is, this is like, I, I feel like in some ways I got to be the ball boy on the, you know, a World Series Reds team. I got to be around the best players at the time and see how they interacted with each other and what they were doing. I didn't do much when I was 23 years old. Um, but I certainly did learn a ton from all of these individuals. And, and, um, you know, what I saw is, um, advantages and, uh, influence and ability goes to people who show up, one.

Brendon Cull: (18:25)
Uh, you, you have no idea the advantage you get by just choosing to be in rooms and by saying, "I will go to that. " Um, and I know that in this time of, there's so much going on, we say, "Well, I gotta pri- prioritize my schedule and prioritize my own time." If there's something that you care about, um, showing up to that one extra meeting, showing up to that one extra conversation or coffee is really important. Um, doing the work, which these are simple things, but the person who writes the first memo, the first email, the first salvo in a conversation to say, "I'm gonna advance this discussion forward," um, they can have enormous influence with that. If you choose to sit down and say, "I'm gona start this conversation and lay out some issues," even if it's not ends up where you go.

Brendon Cull: (19:09)
Um, I had, I had a later opportunity when we were working on transportation issues to, when I got to the chamber, one of the first things that Jill and I worked together on is to say, "What does the transportation strategy need to be in terms of how the business community engaged?" And I had blank sheet of paper and got to write a little bit about how we should engage, what we should focus on and what issues we would need to cover. I hired my colleague, Pete Metz, who came on and has been, you know, uh, one of the, one of the best partners I've ever had in terms of doing civic work in this community over the last decade. And, um, we were able to execute on much of what was in that document. I go back and look at it sometimes and say, "This wasn't all right, but it certainly did set the tone for the work that we're gonna do.

Brendon Cull: (19:48)
" mm-hmm. So I tell people, you know, from a leadership perspective, s- start to do the work. And then there's no, there's no, um, there's no substitute for finding time to, uh, listen, um, you know, to, to what's going on. And the listening and learning aspect of, of a community and it goes hand in hand with trying to understand what's going on in, in this region. Um, we are not so unique as to s - we like to think we are sometimes, but we're not so unique as to think that we can't apply lessons from other communities here. We can. Mm-hmm. However, if you show up and you've got a whole bunch of lessons from a bunch of other communities, I'm excited to see you. I also want you to say, "I'm anxious to understand this community too." Right. And that means understanding the issue, the, the issues.

Brendon Cull: (20:39)
My colleague, we were talking about Leadership Cincinnati. My colleague Sean Comer, who just does a phenomenal job - He does. Leading Leadership Cincinnati. You know, one of the things that he talked about even in his interview and what I know about Sean is that he cares about the history block by block in this community. And so if you're thinking about art in Cincinnati, are you going back 25 years to look at what this city's relationship with art has been? If you're thinking about poverty in Cincinnati, are you thinking about what are the trends that have developed over 200 years - mm-hmm. That have led to some of the conditions that we have here today? And so I want people who are interested in what's happening here and I think those, you know, together those are, uh, leadership traits that I think help, um, particularly people who, who aspire to be civic leaders - mm-hmm.

Brendon Cull: (21:24)
Um, show up and do well.

Marianne Lewis: (21:26)
Uh, you know, I, I, I love that point, Brendon, because I, I think people who aren't from Cincinnati might think of us as monolithic or, or I don't know, unified in some way, but there are so many different stories and elements from the neighborhoods and let alone the history. I, one of the things that I, I think often of, of, in leadership for myself as a leader, but also in my work is just the power of vision and building alignment. You know, this is kind of a Patrick Lancione and beyond, but I think it's absolutely crucial. And then I hear examples like you're given and think building vision that can weave together that variety of stakeholders and neighborhoods and, and history is a different level of challenge. I wonder how you think about building vision and, and fostering alignment at that level. Yeah. Getting us all rowing in the same direction.

Brendon Cull: (22:25)
Um, I mean, I, I wish I had... I, I don't have all the answers. There have been plenty of times where I have failed in an effort to try and get a whole bunch of people. Yes, that's how, that's how we learn. And cities are messy and complicated. It's what makes them exciting. If you've done any reading about cities and regions, um, you know that they're, like, careers are not, not straight lines. Um, the thing, the thing that occurred to me as I was kind of thinking about this conversation is you have to invest other people in the vision. You have to convince them that that vision is something that they can hold on - Yeah. To as well. Um, if you think about it from a business term, business perspective, been a lot of IPO news in the, or a lot of IPO topics in the news lately.

Brendon Cull: (23:13)
Um, in, in some ways you're, if you're trying to get people, um, e- excited about your community vision or something that you're trying to do here, you're almost doing a little bit of an IPO, which means you have to give people stock in your vision. And that means you lose some control of it. Because at some point somebody could buy a whole bunch of it and say, "Oh, well, this is, I have a little different vision of it, " but they are owners. They feel ownership of the bigger cause in general. And so if you are leading something, at some point, you have to be willing to sell shares. You have to be willing to say - That's a great question. I am bringing you into this in a way in which you actually have ownership of this. This is no longer just mine. Might have started with my idea.

Brendon Cull: (23:53)
It might have been my invention. It might have been my thing. And it rarely is just one person's, but in, in this particular example, you starting something, um, if you're going to bring people a complicated community situation, this goes for business too, this goes for teams that you're working within an organization, is that you have to bring people into that, that vision and let them feel like they have ownership of it.

Marianne Lewis: (24:14)
Uh, I, I, I'm going to remember the IPO metaphor. It's a really good one because ownership matters. I mean, it's, it's motivation on a whole different level. Yeah. Right? Because it's personal.

Brendon Cull: (24:23)
Yeah. I mean, you could do... I, I had this, uh, opportunity a few, uh, last year to go down and hear a story about, um, it was a, a, a case study re- review of, um, Gibson guitars, and they had gone into an ESOP. And an ESOP is another similar model - Of course. That you could do. You're giving people ownership and making them feel connected into what you're trying to do. If civic leaders find ways to do that, I think they could be really, really successful. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (24:49)
Let's look a bit to the future, Brendon. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna give you a, a different kind of focus on this one. You know that I'm very proud of the co-op model here at UC. I believe it's the engine of how we learn through cooperative education. And it's really about blending students and faculty and staff and partners. But if I think about the power of connection and partners, what, if we, let's look ahead and think about how can businesses, universities and organizations really work to support this region? And you and I have talked a lot about the power of and vitality of attracting and retaining talent in particular. In your, in your wishes, in your dreams, how would we work together to go to the next level on

Brendon Cull: (25:35)
That? Well, I, I just wanna say fir- first of all, I mean, I love being on this campus. Um, this is, this is the center of what the future of Cincinnati looks like. Oh, I love that. When I was here last week with, uh, Dr. Pinto and we went to the top of the Crosley Tower as they are taking it down with Michelle O'Rourke. Yes,

Marianne Lewis: (25:52)
With Michelle

Brendon Cull: (25:53)
. Uh, and Skanska. She offered that. It was such a cool - Was it scary?

Marianne Lewis: (25:56)
All right I'm gonna

Brendon Cull: (25:57)
Have to do that too. The ORC, uh, ORC team's very safe so it felt

Marianne Lewis: (26:00)
Very,

Brendon Cull: (26:00)
Uh - Okay, excellent. Prioritized safety. But you could see - But it was so cool, um, to see what they were doing - Yes. Because you had all of these folks on the roof of this building, which is legend on Cincinnati's campus. Mm-hmm. I live a mile from here and I'm gonna miss it on the skyline. Mm-hmm. But, uh, progress. And they are taking it down piece by piece. And you know who was up on that roof were people who care about UC, lieutenant governor was there, uh, who thinks about education as a priority so that Ohioans can reach their, uh, full potential. And you had UC co-ops who were either co-oping at that moment or they were, uh, four or five years into their career and they started working at O'Rourke or Skanska as a UC co-op. Oh, that's great. And, and the building that they are replacing there is a STEM building, fourth STEM building on UC's campus, which is going to help chart the course of the future of talent in this particular community right here on MLK, right in the middle of the city.

Brendon Cull: (26:56)
Uh, stones throw from all of our hospitals, uh, I - 75 and the aerospace corridor all the way up to Dayton. This right here where we're sitting, uh, the, the College of Business here is a, is a, really a, a, um, uh, a beacon point for the future of this particular region. And when I pulled up today to park in the parking garage, there's a giant banner over the door, over the street that says welcome. And it's because you are hosting high schoolers from, like you said, on the way in here, all over who are coming here to think about what banner looks like. And if you look at cities that have, uh, you know, seen their growth move exponentially, it is because they have welcomed newcomers of all kinds, and then given them the opportunity to shape the future of the place in which they want to live.

Brendon Cull: (27:41)
And so it, it's both, it has to work both ways, is there? It has to. All of these folks who are coming here, I don't want you to come here and just get your degree and then move on and get a job and say, "This is the city that we have created for you. Live in it. I want you to come here - mm-hmm. Get your degree, get a job here." Yeah. And then be a part of the forces that help shape the city of the future. Absolutely. If you look at cities like Denver and Nashville and, uh, we're going to Charlotte this year for our leadership exchange, those are cities that have imported, um, hundreds of thousands of people, new talent into their community. And what they have said is once you get here, this is yours and you get to do with it what you want.

Brendon Cull: (28:16)
And I want those people to come here and shape this. They, they should feel ownership of it. Absolutely. They should feel connected to it. They should feel safe.This is the city that I want to live in in the future.

Marianne Lewis: (28:24)
Oh, that's a great example because I would love to help our students, whether they grew up in Cincinnati or co - or, or coming from afar, build that ownership in the city.

Brendon Cull: (28:34)
The co-op program program is, is so perfect because you're getting - That's a great way to do it. The students off campus. Yeah. Right out of the, right out of the chute. You know, you go to some universities and it's like, okay, you're gonna be in these four walls for the whole time that you're here. And I think the, the model now, and I benefited from this where I went, is that, you know, they, they push you to explore what's going on in the community outside of, of, of the campus. That's really important.

Marianne Lewis: (28:58)
It, it is important. And, and one of the ways I, I'd love to conclude our podcast is with some advice for this future generation. I think a particular question I'd love to ask you is if someone wanted to help shape the future of their city, Cincinnati in particular, but it could be beyond, but didn't know where to begin, what advice would you give?

Brendon Cull: (29:20)
Uh, well, selfishly, I mean, we haven't spent a lot of time talking about the chamber. Let's do. Uh, and I would, I would just say, um, there are so many ways to connect to our organization. Mm-hmm. Um, I tell people, I usually start by saying we're a nearly 200-year-old organization, and that's one, because I enjoy history. Um, but also I think it's that connectedness to who we are and our culture in our community is really important. So I tell people to knock on our door and that could mean you wanna sign up for our weekly newsletter so that you know what's going on in this community, you wanna come to the free networking events, you want to, uh, if you are a summer intern in Cincinnati and you sign up for the SINC program, we will help orient you to this community, uh, as a whole.

Brendon Cull: (30:00)
There are leadership programs for more seasoned executives as you move through your career. There's opportunities to be involved from a government affairs perspective. And then there's all the other cool stuff that we do, like Blink and Octoberfest and so much else that brings that community to, to our region. But I do think of our, I do want our organization to be positioned as a, we're a great first call for, for people. Um, in our days of going to college probably, if you remember, there was an information line usually on campus. Mm-hmm. Do you, do you remember this? Yes I do. You would like, you would call whatever the number was, I still remember mine and, and you could call whoever you wanted or whoever would answer the phone and you could ask them anything. Like what's the time you, you know, what time is it?

Brendon Cull: (30:43)
Wh time's the shuttle gonna pick me up? What time is this? 'Cause you didn't, we didn't have it all on our phones. I know I'm gonna sound really old. I'm not that old. But you didn't have, we didn't have it all on our phones. Yeah. It wasn't just Google this for me, please. It was, it was a number you called to, to Google this for me. In some ways our, our chamber can do that. Mm-hmm. Is that we can, you can call us and we can help orient you into this community. I wanna be a part of something outside of my company too. I wanna be engaged. I wanna benefit my company - Right. By being en- engaged in the community like we talked about earlier. We're a, a great first call. But in terms of advice after you get past knocking on our door, um, you know, I, I would say, um, you never, you should never stop learning.

Brendon Cull: (31:23)
Mm-hmm. You should never stop reading. Um, and I'm not talking about reading, uh, just texts and, and - mm-hmm. S- scrolling, but, you know, pick up a book. Uh - Go deep. Go deeper. Try to understand the history of the company that you're working for. Yeah. Uh, the history of the community that you're working for. Um, go talk to people. Um, you know, when I worked at Kroger, I spent 10 years working at Kroger, uh, leading government affairs and some of the most, uh, important conversations I had were, were with executives who were nearing retirement, um, who told me about their careers, but also what had happened in the company over the last several decades. Um, those moments, they're, it's not quite mentorship, although you're getting mentorship out of it. Yeah. But it's helping you understand just the ways of things because companies that are... Once you hit a certain, uh, longevity as a company, your company in some ways has, uh, there's some writing about this that I, that I'll, I'll send to you and you can cite in the notes.

Brendon Cull: (32:27)
But about companies that essentially have their own souls after a period of time. And I kind of buy into that is that you, if you are, if you've been around that long, it's, you can call it culture, but it's really there's some ways there. Mm-hmm. So my advice to young leaders is find those people who can tell you stories about the company, the city, um, the neighborhood, the community, organization that you care about and soak that up. Mm-hmm. Uh, soak that up so that you understand the moments that you're in. Don't be, um, uh, don't be limited by it. Right. But learn from it and then use your knowledge of how things work to be able to shape that future that you want.

Marianne Lewis: (33:07)
Thank you, Brendon. Uh, really just maybe a broader thank you. I, I treasure your friendship, your wisdom and expertise and today very much your inspiration in all you do at the chamber. I don't know if you have ever heard the phrase that it, some of the studies on the paradox of choice and that there are many, many ways to find purpose and get involved that they can be paralyzing. But in this great city, we have the chamber and it is a tremendous resource to all of us. So thank you for your leadership.

Brendon Cull: (33:36)
Thank you, Marianne. So glad to be here. Thanks, Grant. It's great, great space you have here. Um, get engaged with what's going on here at this campus. This is the, this is the future here.

Marianne Lewis: (33:44)
It is. Thank you.

Grant Freking: (33:46)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.