Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Marleen and I'm the director of marketing here at the college. And yeah, in this episode, we have an exciting, or, you know, very relevant topic, I think, which is the future of higher education. And I'm excited that today I have a very special guest here, um, who actually inspired me since day one I have joined the college. And that's our very own dean, Marianne Lewis. Welcome Marianne to,

Marianne Lewis: (00:30)
Thank you Marleen. So glad to be here.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (00:32)
Thank you for joining us. And I would say, you know, before we go into the details, let's just jump in with like a big question. Um, when you hear the phrase the future of higher education, what do you see? Get us inspired!

Marianne Lewis: (00:44)
Oh yeah, that, I mean, that is the big question. Maybe it's the million-dollar question. I mean, when I dream big Marleen, I think about higher education being more agile, hands-on and personal. I think from an agility perspective, higher ed needs to be really driven to stay relevant to the market, to the needs of the students, but also the employers. And that is no easy task because the world changes fast. It's also about being really hands-on. It is making sure that, you know, we're not an ivory tower, that we keep pushing ourselves to, yes, learn and develop new knowledge within higher ed, but also be, make sure our students get out of the classroom and try it out and figure out what works best for them. And I think that third piece is about being personal. I mean, learning is personal, and the more we get good at being modular and providing the kinds of learning you need when you need them, we can help people learn their entire lives. And that's what we're here for. And I love my job because it's amazing how much education makes a difference in one's life in our community and in the world.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (01:55)
Yeah, that sounds really nice, especially what you said about learning our entire lives. Because I think, you know, we had that mindset previously before where it's looked like we need a bachelor to, you know, start our career, but it's actually, you know, we can learn even until just keep learning the end of our careers or even beyond, you know?

Marianne Lewis: (02:12)
Agreed.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (02:12)
So that's nice. Well, now higher ed is facing a lot of skepticism these days. You know, there is even, you know, not just in personal conversations I had with people, but also if, you know, I turn on social media, you see these videos saying, Hey, you know what, I don't need higher education anymore. Um, do you think students and parents still believe in the value of higher education?

Marianne Lewis: (02:34)
I, I mean, I think those beliefs are being challenged, and I take that very seriously. I mean, if you look at, you know, the big studies of say the Pew survey or the Gallup Poll, I mean, you'll see it's been confidence in higher ed has been declining for well over a decade, and we need to take that seriously. Part of that is that the world is changing, and we need to be able to demonstrate our value. I mean, we think all the time at Lindner about ROI, right, return on investment matters. If the world is hearing, and I always pray it's not us, but they're hearing concerns that debt is high and jobs straight out of college or light longer, career satisfaction is low. Yeah, we have a problem. I'm not gonna stand for that. I mean, our placement is very high. Our MBA was just rated number three in the country for ROI, and we better hold a high bar because if you want learning to be transformational, it needs to have a return and it needs to be a return immediately. And if we're doing our jobs well, that return should actually grow over time because we've set up a foundation that you can keep learning and growing and succeeding through your career. And, and I do know that that's a high bar, but the skepticism is real and we should take it seriously.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (03:52)
Yeah. And you just mentioned return on investment, and that's also something I have heard in the past as like the number one argument, you know, why people believe higher education might not be as valuable anymore. That's right. But, um, if, I mean, you talk to students, parents and employers a lot.

Marianne Lewis: (04:08)
I do.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (04:08)
What do you hear from them? Like what are their needs when they think about higher education apart from, you know, just getting a nice salary afterwards?

Marianne Lewis: (04:16)
Well, I mean, I talked about on the student side, the parents side on one side, and then employers, um, you know, we live in a different kind of an industry. Obviously we're student centric, but sometimes I need to help students understand that who I really have to be listening to is the employers. Because if we do by right by the employers, we automatically do right by the students. So when I say that, for example, you know, I, I, I hear as, as illustration, you know a lot about AI and changes in technology. I, I would add social media media into that and just digital technologies, digital data. Um, but actually the faster technology changes, the more demand for humans who can think better. So people say, oh, well maybe we don't need higher ed because AI is gonna use all of our jobs. It's gonna take all of our jobs.

Marianne Lewis: (05:12)
That is absolutely not true. It is going to change them. And so what I hear just almost to every day from employers is, I need more students, employees who lean in, who engage, who think critically, they think creatively, they take initiative. I mean, those to me, that to me is music to our my ears because that's exactly how we should be developing our students. And it's pushing us to think, okay, how are we making sure they can do just that when they're out of the classroom? How are we challenging their critical creative thinking? Um, I mean, you know, I I think into this point about how do we make sure it counts? We're gonna have to just keep pushing on that it adds value to their lives. Right? So, I mean, I just gave you kind of the employer side. I want people who can communicate well, engage, take initiative, solve problems. On the human side, what I hear increasingly and especially from alumni is they wanna make sure they have a life of meaning and value. Well, there's dignity in work. There's so much opportunity here that I, I think I would like us to get more purposeful on the student side. They need to understand what we're hearing from employers and why we're doing the training and development that we are, but I also want them to know this is about them, and it needs to be about helping them live really satisfying, meaningful lives.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (06:42)
Yeah. I love what you said about, you know, new technology coming in, but also about giving people meaning, you know, because I think that's very, very critical these days when it comes to jobs. And, um, I feel like, you know, just imagine you leave school with a degree and you actually bring something new to a company that they are not that good at yet, or that they don't know that much about, but you add that value 'cause you've learned it in school. I think that would be, you know, a very beautiful picture.

Marianne Lewis: (07:09)
I, I can't agree more. I, I think helping, helping the students understand that they do bring new value, but also the humility to start to know what they don't know.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (07:17)
Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (07:17)
Which is really hard, especially for a younger professional.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (07:21)
Oh yeah, for sure. . So business schools today, what do you think they're missing?

Marianne Lewis: (07:29)
Well, I truly think one of the things that they're missing is the more applied approach to learning. It's why when I came back to Lindner and UC, I leaned into co-op. I think it is quite seriously the best, most distinctive thing that we do here at UC. Every business school talks about experiential learning. They don't mean what it the same way we do. They mean an occasional study abroad or maybe an internship. I get that at, believe me. I think those, both of those are really valuable. But we bake it in from day one. Our students, we start talking about the need to get out there and try out what they're learning in a classroom from the very first moment they step onto this campus, whether it's a first year freshman or it's a grad student. It's about applying what you do, what you learn.

Marianne Lewis: (08:22)
Because, you know, we talk about problem solving, but how are you gonna know what tools you're good at using and how to work around the messiness of problems if you don't practice? Once upon a time at UC, you know, co-op was called professional practice. And I was actually thinking about it this weekend that now it seems old fashioned, but it is what we're talking about. We're talking about practicing your professional skills on a regular basis. You know, you learn it in a classroom, you practice, you reflect, which means you basically step back, you get some feedback, you think about what worked, what didn't, and then you come back and you innovate and you go, okay, how would I do it better next time? And it's this win, rinse, wash and repeat process that we need to help our students understand that's what learning is. And you can be really intentional about it.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (09:15)
Yes, for sure. And co-op, um, one of the fun facts I learned when I joined the university is UC is actually the inventor of the coop model, right? That's

Marianne Lewis: (09:23)
That's right. That's right.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (09:23)
In 1905. Is that correct?

Marianne Lewis: (09:25)
I think that's right.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (09:26)
. Yeah. Something like that.

Marianne Lewis: (09:27)
I mean, it's been a long time. Yeah. And I think we, you know, what I don't want us to do is take it for granted. Yes. Because when I hear all the other schools talking about experiential learning, I think they are missing what it really means when we say co-op, we mean cooperative. It is actually a collaborative approach to learning that engages the student, the faculty and staff. Meaning faculty may be in the classroom, staff both as advisors and career services, and always, always the employer. Um, I actually just left my office upstairs. I happened to walk through a big group of employers. They were here from California and we, they were, we just immediately started talking about co-op. And I realized one of the things, oh, they're walking actually by this room as I speak, but these employers, what they care about is the ability to give us feedback. If they're seeing any sort of a trend that they're concerned about or even that they love and they wanna see more of. That's how we innovate in our curriculum all the time. It's continuous improvement and it's because of the employers.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (10:36)
Yeah. So that's what you goes back to what you mentioned in the beginning. We're not an ivory tower.

Marianne Lewis: (10:40)
No.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (10:40)
You know, we actually get the feedback from the outside, from the employers to develop our programs further.

Marianne Lewis: (10:45)
Yeah, and listen. And use it.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (10:47)
Yeah. So now we already dig into co co-op and experiential learning as part of the answer of future higher ed. Um, would you say it's just a resume booster or is it actually more than that?

Marianne Lewis: (11:01)
Oh, I think it's so much more. And you can, you can hear, I mean, I drink the Kool-Aid, but I drink it. I drink it with good reason because I've seen business schools around the world and I don't think there's anything like it. It, I mean, obviously it's a resume booster. I mean, you look really different when you come out of especially an undergrad with that level of experience. But it, it's huge skill booster, right? Because you've practiced, you've built capabilities. You can say, here's what I can do, which is really different. But the other piece is about confidence and resilience. The more often we can help our students try fail sometimes and try again, the better they will get at knowing they can try again. They can get back up. And in fact, actually that's how we learn and grow. Um, I, we need people outta their comfort zones and co-op and our brand of experiential learning does just that.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (11:55)
Yeah, I totally agree with the confidence part. Because I do think, you know, having been in the business school myself, you know, for bachelor's, masters, and even a PhD, you learn all those academic and theoretically, um, concepts of how it should be, which is great and which is an important skill to acquire during the, uh, your education. But, um, what I experienced, you know, when you leave school, you're there and then you see, hmm, there's a reason for why not everyone is able to apply them right away. Sure. You know, there is corporate politics, there's culture, there's the economy that impacts a lot of things, the market. Um, and even people, I think business is all about people as well. You will collaborate with a lot of people within your corporation or outside of your corporation. And it's so important to experience that and to acquire skills on top of, you know, the theoretical.

Marianne Lewis: (12:47)
Yeah.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (12:47)
Frameworks.

Marianne Lewis: (12:49)
I appreciate the way you said that because you, you can teach so many theories, and I'm a theorist. I believe in good theory, . I mean, so you can teach great theories and concepts and tools, but it's how you apply them. This is where they add value and you don't know how you apply them and when they work and when they don't work, and when you have to work around them or tweak them until you're actually in the moment. And that's super important. You know, the other thing I was thinking as you said that Marleen is, is sometimes I will run into students who will tell me how much they love co-op and they'll say, I learned more in my co-op than I've ever learned in a classroom. And they say it meaning maybe I should just be working. And that's one of the criticisms of higher ed.

Marianne Lewis: (13:30)
But what they're missing, and I, and I try to help them understand this, is the reason they are learning so much on those co-ops is because we use this feedback loop with what happens in the class, what happens in the co-op, and then do it again. So, I mean, now I meant being a theorist, they call it absorbative capacity. It means that in the classroom we're teaching them how to absorb what's happening in the real world. I, I love that. I don't care where they think it happened, as long as it happens faster and better for them. Um, but I do kind of try to help them realize it is, it's a beautiful circle that happens with both of those sides, the theory and the practice.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (14:11)
I agree. And actually, I would argue the theory, it gives us kind of like the compass, right?

Marianne Lewis: (14:15)
Mm-hmm.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (14:15)
To like, what is the ideal state of leadership or of marketing, of finance or, you know, all these concepts out there. And then the practice just showed us, shows us, you know, these little, um, challenges we have. Yeah. You know, in order to make that happen. You know,

Marianne Lewis: (14:29)
You know, though, it's funny that you say that. 'cause I teach, I teach leadership and I've been studying leadership obviously for a long time. And it is so, such a hard concept to teach, especially in an undergraduate classroom because some of the theories, if you teach it to someone who has never had a co-op, they go, well, obviously. Okay, you've not been out there. What I'm trying to show you is best practice. And then if you, but if you are in a classroom where you've got lots of people who have been on co-op, I actually start my first leadership port class with, um, let's talk about bosses from hell, sorry, you know, for the language. But my point is, once you've had bad bosses, which is the number one reason that people leave a job as a bad leader, you start to have something to work with because then they realize these theories, they are ideal, they're ideal states. They do not happen regularly. In fact, they're not the norm. Which is why if you could learn them faster, you will be so far ahead of others.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (15:32)
Yeah. Actually I'm smiling a lot right now. 'cause I think we should have an episode just on leadership and how it works in practice. Uh, because that's actually something I can relate with myself. You know, I would say even like, the things I didn't like about former bosses is what taught me the most, you know?

Marianne Lewis: (15:49)
Oh, I agree. Always.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (15:49)
Because you actually learn. Hmm. I I don't wanna be like that.

Marianne Lewis: (15:53)
what not to do, ,

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (15:54)
But there is a reason why they acted like that, right? So That's right. Do you have a co-op student in mind or a co-op story in mind that stands out? That's a good example of, you know, this combination of theory and practice?

Marianne Lewis: (16:08)
It's, it's a great question. I mean, I have a lot of students I think about, I was, I was thinking about one this morning that is kind of classic. I had a student, um, years ago who said to me, I wanna be in sports. And I, I have students all the time who say things like, I wanna be in sports, or I wanna be in fashion, or they'll give me something like a context. Those are super competitive worlds. And I said to him, here's what you gotta do given how competitive sports are, you need to get really good at something and then start figuring out how to apply it to sports. And he decided it would be finance, which, you know, at first I wasn't. I was like, all right, that's kind of, I thought maybe he'd go marketing or something else, or data or analytics.

Marianne Lewis: (16:53)
But he said finance. And I remember these conversations. I mean, he was a young guy, he was a first generation student. He was putting his way through school. And he comes to me and said, I got my first co-op, but it's, and and this is before we were mandatory and, and it means multiple paid professional experiences. And he said, well, I've got, I've got great news and some bad news. And I said, well, what is it? And he said, um, it's not paid right. Ouch. And it's in Indianapolis and I'm gonna commute there. And I said, are, are you sure this, this seems really risky. And he said, it's with the Pacers. Oh wow. I could, it is an in, it is my dream job. It's worth it for a summer. And I said, and this is a kid who's putting his a through school.

Marianne Lewis: (17:42)
I mean, he's such a good guy. And I said, if you're sure I will, I will back you 110%, but boy, this is going to be a tough summer. And, um, not only did it go well, I mean he's, he's arguably one of the best sports financier, financiers now in the country. He is at every NBA and NFL draft helping the new draftees, meaning the top five picks with their finances. And he's amazing. And I, and I help him connect with other students so he can repay and kind of the, the favor and help them make sure that they are really, really good at whatever it is, finance, analytics, marketing, accounting. It doesn't matter because the only way you get into a super competitive is to demonstrate that you have the skills and grit to be there. Yeah. And I love that story. And I, every time I see him, I just, I give him a big hug. 'cause I'm so proud of how, how well it worked and, but also how hard he worked to get there. Yeah,

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (18:40)
Yeah, I love that story too. I think that's someone who we could also have on the podcast.

Marianne Lewis: (18:45)
Oh, he's fantastic.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (18:46)
. It's a great story. I wanna learn more about it. So we talked about experiential learning, co-op, um, and I mean, I'm hooked. I, I think, you know, this is a great model and a great answer to the future of higher ed, but why aren't more schools using it or embracing it?

Marianne Lewis: (19:05)
Because it's a big, it's a really heavy lift. If you were to do it the way UC does it, you have to build a whole infrastructure. So people think about it from recruiting to orientation to the first-year experience, to the way you set up career, uh, coaches to advisors, to faculty. I mean, if you do it right, it touches everything. I mean, it was why it, it is a big deal to do it the way we do. Um, and I think the reason why I said, you know, it's missing now in schools is they want it because they know the market wants that sort of experience, but they're not really willing to put in the heavy lifting. So what they'll do is say, Hey, you can get an internship over here, or we'll give you an opportunity to study abroad. But that's not the same as baking it into the way that just permeates what you do and your culture. Um, it's a, it's a lot of resources, time and energy, and it's just a culture. Um, but once you have that virtuous cycle revving the engine just works really, really well. It's just hard to build.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (20:20)
Yeah. And we, you already mentioned that like what differentiates Lindner from other schools. I mean, it's not just providing internship opportunities to students, it's more about also this collaboration with employers, with the community to make sure there's this feedback loop, you know, to really make sure there's value in it. Not just for that individual student, but for, you know, the the college or the university as a whole. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (20:42)
That's right.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (20:45)
Um, if I were a parent or a student, why would you say, should I choose Lindner?

Marianne Lewis: (20:52)
I was actually talking to parents yesterday at an orientation and I basically try to answer that question by saying, because we will transform your student. And I know that sounds like a really big promise, but I, it's almost hard not to, if you're really going to push people out of their comfort zone with a beautiful safety net and lots of learning and development supports around them. The difference between a first year student and a graduating senior is remarkable. I love it. I mean, I, I get weepy at every graduation because I see these students who look like very young children when they joined us and suddenly look like working professionals when they leave. That's amazing. But I also even feel that way about our graduate students because, you know, unlike the typical undergraduate, a graduate students comes here 'cause they know exactly what they need. Right now it's alm it's actually a harder lift because it's a shorter timeframe and a very specific goal. Um, but they're also empowered to make the most of the resources we have here and they do really well. So I think it's about transformation and I I love that.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (22:07)
Yeah. Sounds sounds really beautiful. And what, what would you say is co-op and experiential learning? What, what part does that have in this transformation?

Marianne Lewis: (22:17)
I mean, ultimately co-op and experiential learning are these contexts of discomfort of challenge. And you know, it reminds me, I mean I'm using a leadership model, but, but Warren Bennis was the former president here and we have a leadership institute named after him. And one, one of his lines that we use all the time is that leadership is forged in the crucible. It means in your hardest times, you grow the most. It is true every time. I love the classroom. If you want crucibles, you need to be out of the classroom. I mean, a test is hard. It's nothing like a tough boss, a major project, a learning how to navigate New York City for the summer. I mean, you name it. These are all things, and, and by the way, everything I just said could probably happen at once, all at once for co-op students. That's a good thing. When they come back and say, I did it. Oh my. Back to the confidence and the resilience. It's huge. And it makes them that much better the next time. They have such a challenge.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (23:19)
That's very true. And actually, if I think about it, you know, also when they go out to do their co-op, their internship or whatever, they're on their own, you know? Yeah, that's absolutely. I think that's also different 'cause college is still, you know, you're moved outta your parents' home maybe. Yeah. But you're still in a protective environment in a group. It's true. So when you do your co-op, it's just you. Yeah. And your new colleagues. Yeah. Some of them much older than you maybe.

Marianne Lewis: (23:40)
But it's funny that you said that. 'cause sometimes parents will get really, like, what do you mean that you just, they just do it and you're like, yeah, they do. And we have a whole network in these cities. Or if, whether it it's in Cincinnati or I said New York or wherever the case might be. But they have alumni, they have fellow other students, but ultimately they do have to figure it out themselves. 'cause nobody else can. Yes. And that's a good thing.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (24:05)
Exactly. And it makes you, you know, grow to be the person you want to be. It does. Yeah. So if we go back to the future of higher education, if you could just design higher education from scratch, where would you start?

Marianne Lewis: (24:21)
It's such a, it's such a tough question. Um, I mean, I would start with the end in mind. What do you want the ideal graduate to look like? What do you want their capabilities to be? Their confidence. I mean, and I do think that starts with looking at the employer side, but it also starts with looking at the human side. The students, like, they may not know exactly what they're gonna need for their career, but they know what they want. They wanna feel fulfilled and energized and valued. Right. For who they are. Um, you know, when we were doing a project, and I guess it was, you know, it was over, gosh, well over a decade ago we had a, this is gonna sound really funny, but, um, we had a cutout of Justin Bieber. He just happened to be popular at the time. And we were trying to decide how to really redesign.

Marianne Lewis: (25:17)
And we had to redesign because we were moving from quarters to semesters. So it's a bigger project, but what everybody would do is they'd put post-its on Justin, Justin, by the way, who would, the cutout would scare me. People would hide it in my office. It was, it became fun too. . But, you know, he'd have a passport and how do you build cultural competency? And he'd have a calculator. But the whole point was about analytics and data and technology. And I guess my point being, you gotta start with the student. And I think if we were to start over, that's, that might sound, uh, like a strange place to start. 'cause you think we're doing that now, but things develop through inertia over time and we can lose our way. I will never let us lose our way. 'cause I think about our students every day and it's hard sometimes to say, do we really have the curriculum and the supports for what a student needs today? And I do think a lot has changed post pandemic, um, with technologies. I think we should really push ourselves to ask, are we doing the right things now?

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (26:22)
Yeah. Do you have some ideas? What could be could be the right things?

Marianne Lewis: (26:27)
Well, I I actually think one of the big projects we're doing right now is on engagement. Mm-hmm . So I mean there's really concerning research about the challenges of social media. And I, I think this is also kind of a, what I would call it, this sounds harsh, but pandemic stunted learning is that there's a more passive approach to engaging. Boy, you don't learn through passive action. I mean, passive efforts. I mean, you need to be active. You need to actually roll up your sleeves. You need to be not just sitting in a classroom but talking and listen and you know, listening, asking questions and then out in co-op and study abroads. And not just being a tourist and letting it, you know, wash over you, but really questioning what's happening here. Why, how could I be better in those situations? Um, engagement is, is about leaning in with a very strong purpose.

Marianne Lewis: (27:25)
And I think we're gonna have to push harder to do that. I, and I don't know exactly what it means. I mean, we have a lot of people thinking about it this summer in the college thinking about, uh, critical thinking engagement and ways that you get out of maybe what can feel isolated. Mm-hmm . Either because you're stuck on your phone or, and, and believe me, I can be stuck on my phone. Um, but the world is not on your phone. The world is right in front of you and making the most of it means engaging. Yeah. Yeah. That's the piece that I, it keeps me up at night. 'cause I really wanna make sure that, you know, you can, you can build these beautiful things and if people don't take advantage of them, they've missed opportunities. I mean, it's something else I say to parents during orientation, help us help your students take advantage of the opportunities here because we have so many variations and it's really up to the individual student, what they do and what they take advantage of. There's no cookie cutter here.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (28:26)
Yeah. And that actually links back to what I mentioned at the beginning of our discussion. Like how also on social media, you have these discussions about what's the value of higher education? Well, not real discussions. You have people saying there is no value, you know? Yeah. But I also find these things to be very critical because for some people that might be the right way to go, but not for all of us. Yeah. But when you are exposed to this kind of content like 24/7, you might believe, okay, you know, yeah, I don't need it. But you actually might, you know, but you might

Marianne Lewis: (28:55)
Mm-hmm

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (28:55)
. So Yeah. I fully agree. Do you think our mindsets need to change, especially us, you know, from the academic world?

Marianne Lewis: (29:04)
I do. I actually study mindsets. I mean, a mindset is basically a set of assumptions and understandings that helps you interpret experience. Um, we've been, we've been working on a project here called the Next Mindset, which is, I'm gonna get a little theoretical here, but I mean, there's a lot of different work on mindsets, like a growth mindset. Carol Dweck is about learning versus fixed, which is just, you know, going through the motions. I study paradox mindset, which means people that embrace tensions, navigate, learn how to surf through competing demands rather than get paralyzed. Um, I think mindset matters enormously. There's great research that shows it either fuels or inhibits your learning and growth. We are working hard to, to determine how, how are we fostering a mindset that is around innovative problem solving. It's about learning, it's about embracing tensions. Because if we help students do those things, they will have a better career and life long after they leave Lindner and UC.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (30:08)
Yes, for sure. How do you think we can rebuild trust in higher education or keep the trust that we still have?

Marianne Lewis: (30:17)
Personally? I think we need to demonstrate our value every day. We need to show it with great stories of student success down to, you know, data that shows everything from placement rates, graduation rates, retention rates, and kind of move backwards from those, you know, 'cause ultimately they need to stay, they need to graduate, they need to get a job. Um, and, and that sort of data really matters a great deal to ROI. But I also think it needs to be in the human stories. I want any and every student who graduates from us to be able to tell stories about why it mattered. And I think it's that consistency of data at a macro level to stories at a micro level that works, and trust is easily broken. So it, when someone has an issue or a situation that it hasn't worked, I appreciate when they reach out and sometimes they do and we have conversations about that. What went wrong? What else can we do? Um, it because everybody is different.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (31:21)
Yeah. I think that's very value valuable actually everybody's different because as I mentioned before, you know, for some people college might not be it.

Marianne Lewis: (31:29)
Yeah. Agree.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (31:29)
But for lots of people it probably is, you know? Yeah. And that's why it's so valuable to like, look into yourself.

Marianne Lewis: (31:34)
Well, you know, but if I could 'cause you, I actually have really good conversations with people in the community about when it isn't mm-hmm . And there are wonderful community colleges and trade schools. I don't believe we should have free education because I think, think would actually force everyone to be in higher ed. I don't think it's for everybody. I do think there's enough data at this point to know that those with a college education do do better financially by leaps and bounds than generally others. But that said, boy, you need great trades people, people who are craftsmen, craftswomen. It's hugely important to our world. I just think we need to help students figure out what's right for them.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (32:15)
Yes. And the earlier the better probably.

Marianne Lewis: (32:17)
Right. And the earlier the better. Yeah.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (32:19)
Yes. Well, I mean, I've known you for a little bit and you're very passionate about your work. So I'd be curious for our audience, what motivates you to be a leader in education?

Marianne Lewis: (32:32)
Uh, really what motivates me is stories like the one I just shared of my student who ended up at the Pacers. And then, I mean those, that's huge. That's life changing. I can have a, a real impact. And it's not, that sounds maybe egotistical, but boy, it matters. I love the power of education. I see it every day and I want to put it on steroids because I think we have what it takes to do just that.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (32:58)
Yes. Sounds good. And I really wanna meet that student

Marianne Lewis: (33:02)
Deal. He's fabulous.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (33:03)
It's a great story. . I mean, I know we have multiple more, more stories,

Marianne Lewis: (33:07)
But we have lots of stories.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (33:09)
It's particularly beautiful. Um, and if you were to give advice to other schools out there, business schools maybe in particular, what would you say is the one bold move you would advise them to take?

Marianne Lewis: (33:21)
I, I would, I would encourage them to be bold about their experiential learning. Stop treating it as kind of throw something over the fence. Okay, now you're overseas or now you're, you know, on a study abroad or now you're in an internship and think very creatively and ambitiously about you, how you bring it into the classroom. So that rather have this kind of binary of I'm either in class or out of class, you're connecting those dots. I'm not saying this is easy, but you could start in small and meaningful ways.

Marleen Relling-Schaefer: (33:53)
Small meaningful ways. That sounds great. Um, and I think we've reached the end of our episode. So thank you so much, Marianne.

Marianne Lewis: (34:01)
Oh, thank you, Marleen.

Marianne Lewis: (34:02)
for sharing your thoughts and having this discussion with me. To all our listeners out there, thank you for tuning in today and if that conversation has sparked something in you, we'd really appreciate if you leave us a comment. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts because it really helps other people finding out out there. So thank you for tuning in and go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Lindner's experiential learning toolbox empowers students to tackle real-world problems. Cooperative education, or co-op, is UC's gold standard for experiential learning. Co-op is simply this: paid professional experiences students use to gain the skills, confidence, and connections needed to launch their business careers. Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. Today I'm joined by Benjamin Seid, risk and compliance analyst for Triversity Construction. Benjamin is a 2024 Lindner grad who majored in operations management and insurance and risk management among other topics. Benjamin is here to dive deep into his co-op experiences and how they helped prepare him for his professional career. Welcome, Benjamin. Thank you for being here.

Benjamin Seid: (00:52)
Thanks, Grant. Thanks for having me.

Grant Freking: (00:54)
Now, Benjamin, you had three co-op rotations, correct? Yes. Okay. Two rotations with Bosch, USA and one with Toyota North America. Yes.

Benjamin Seid: (01:01)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (01:01)
What was your process for landing these positions?

Benjamin Seid: (01:04)
Uh, so it started being that weird remote hybrid COVID era. Sure. Um, taking a career success course first it was great. Met the career coach, then Emily, um, who actually patched me to my actual career coaches for my major. So I think it was Keith Sun and Weston at the beginning. Um, you know, they were like, go to the career fair, this is great. Um, went there and that's kind of how that journey started is following the career coaches, taking their advice, um, and just kind of experienced in college from being a transfer student from Blue Ash to main campus. Um, the, the big thing was I've never been to a career fair, so meeting people was really stressful. I went with a game plan of writing down my 10 companies that I wanna work for. Um, talk to my career coaches saying This is who I want to try to interview with, kind of meet with. They gave me their names and I just kind of explored that arena at the, um, well, the basketball court down at uc Sure. Sport facility. That's how it kind of started. Um, through that. There's a lot of little behind the scenes that I worked on, um, with the career coaches, which I can get into more detail, but that's kind of how it started.

Grant Freking: (02:13)
Sure. And what were some of like the tidbits, I guess, when you first, uh, collaborated with your career coaches that kind of maybe got your wheels spinning on maybe who you wanted to talk to at the career fair, maybe who you even wanted to co-op with. What were some of those sort of the questions they asked you or sort of things you guys bounced off of each other?

Benjamin Seid: (02:30)
Yeah. Being a OM major kind of finding my core values is really important. So for me, it's people first. So trying to find companies that fit that kind of mission statement or values is really important. That's kind of how I landed in my full-time career, uh, at Triversity. But, you know, Toyota has that, Bosch has that, um, you know, all those companies that I've interned and kind of networked with has that core value. The Keith Sun did a really good job and he connected me with names that will be at that event. So I went up to that booth, knew the name, introduced myself, said I'm interested in blank blank. Um, you know, people first I like inter um, process planning. And then the recruiter was like, oh, that's great. We have a team for that. Here's our connection. Um, you know, you walk away kinda like, oh, maybe I got that role.

Benjamin Seid: (03:15)
Maybe I didn't. Um, I walked away every time. I did not land that co-op interview connection, whatever you call that, that first impression. Sure. Um, what I did then was I went to Keith and said, I need their name again. 'cause I was really bad at taking notes at the beginning and I messaged 'em on LinkedIn. I said, Hey, it was great meeting you here. Here's my resume. I would like to set up a time to meet you in more depth or meet the team. And that's how I landed Bosch and Toyota. Was that kind of follow up, the initiative with that career coach. The career coach knowing who's attending, they know who signed up for that career fair. It's up to the student and especially me reaching out and getting that kind of push and drive to get that connection going.

Grant Freking: (03:58)
Sure. And then once you got to your co-ops, after you put the hard work in that you just mentioned, once you got to your co-ops, what sort of, I guess, hard skills that maybe related to your major and soft skills that can relate to any major? Did you pick up on?

Benjamin Seid: (04:12)
Um, you know, it was interesting. I little, yes. Both hard skills I will say is I was not good with, um, I'm a visual learner.

Grant Freking: (04:21)
Mm-hmm .

Benjamin Seid: (04:22)
And, and anyway, I'm, I'm, that's the big thing. So technical skills like that, it just wasn't connecting with me. So having a mentor understand that express how you learn, really kind of coach me on this is the Excels that you need. This is the word processing, I think going onto any business, right? There's a big software system for us at Triversity. It's, uh, viewpoint. Maybe at Bosch, it's SAP. Um, those are things that you'll learn with your mentor. And it's kind of now that, now that I understand that system, it's great. soft skills. Um, pushed myself to network 30 minutes with someone new. I made a network sheet, my second co-op at Toyota. I use that now as just a tool to continue meeting people. But the first co-op was just a rocky road. Not that it wasn't great, it just, it was my first experience.

Grant Freking: (05:08)
Yeah.

Benjamin Seid: (05:08)
Understanding professionalism, um, driving my 45 minute commute every morning, um, attending school full time, full time. There's a lot of things I would redo, but I think that put me in a great spot now of the drive, the motivation, the networking, and just kind of knowing what to do in my career laying out from now with the career coaches.

Grant Freking: (05:28)
Sure. Did the networking aspect come naturally to you, or did you have to fine tune that as well? You, you obviously you said when you mentioned, you know, searching for your cops Yeah. And internship internships, you wanted, you know, the people focused thing. So did that come naturally to you or was that something you were just kind of aspiring to in hope to get, to get to.

Benjamin Seid: (05:44)
Yeah, before I did co-ops. I worked at a pet store and I always put the people first, the team first.

Grant Freking: (05:48)
Sure.

Benjamin Seid: (05:48)
Understanding that, and that was kind of core value in that business. I think networking came naturally to me on a low level, but it kind of fine tuned it through the co-ops and through kind of networking, um, at events or just going places and trying new things.

Grant Freking: (06:02)
Sure. How did the co-op process or even the co-op in general, prepare you for your current role and the interview process for that current role? Or just like the job application and interview process for your current role?

Benjamin Seid: (06:14)
Yeah. I think, you know, I think there's two things to that. Um, co-oping is one part of it. Understanding, you know, the professionalism, the skills, the how to work with people, demographics, right? There's different, you know, working with different ages, being the young person at work, working with someone that's more senior in leadership, um, trying new things. That has propelled me to kind of prepare myself for the interviewing full time. The other thing is working with Weston, your career coaches, understanding, connecting with them. Weston pulled me in and had said, Hey, can you want, you wanna be a TA um, for his class, for career success mm-hmm . Um, and I was like, yeah, that's great. I've already taken that class. Now I'm doing it again for another 16 weeks and relearning all the things after doing a co-op. And that kind of pushed me like, oh, okay.

Benjamin Seid: (07:01)
Finding a new job. I actually do have to focus a little bit more on my resume, or this is a good reminder to edit my resume and use bullet points. This is right when AI kind of came out with ChatGPT for school and kids were using it more. And so I, I was like, okay, I gotta fine tune this. I gotta use their new tools and got a refresher over and over on that. Um, and that's kind of helped me get my full-time job is just kind of fine tuning the skills that I had first time taking the career course and the second time, um, and then continuing TAing for that role.

Grant Freking: (07:28)
Sure. And you mentioned Weston and Career Services. Let's circle back to that.

Benjamin Seid: (07:31)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (07:31)
How often would you say, you know, when you were searching for your co-op, uh, did you kind of meet with them, you know, to kind of maybe get your feet wet? What's, tell, walk me through some of the interactions and maybe what other students can expect if they find themselves in a similar position. Which they will, because everyone has to coop.

Benjamin Seid: (07:46)
And I think it's a great tool, right. Co-oping is awesome. I I do highly, um, love the idea of required co-ops. Um, first time is in person.

Grant Freking: (07:53)
Yeah.

Benjamin Seid: (07:53)
Um, I am terrible at interviewing and meeting people. First time, uh, I get anxious. It's, it's uncomfortable. So I always try to do the first time meet in person. Sure. Uh, over that maybe per semester. So first time at one time a semester, I probably met with Weston and Keith maybe three times a semester in person or virtual. And then probably, maybe a good 50 emails back and forth, um, on, Hey, I'm thinking about this. Do you know anyone there? Do you think this fits me? I'm trying to do this class next semester. Do you think this will help me get this kind of role of this career path? And that was kind of the, the help that they gave is very one-on-one support, understanding who you are and that will also benefit a co-op looking full-time or a future co-op.

Grant Freking: (08:36)
Right. Talk more about like not only the connections they provide you with, but also making you probably aware of, you know, what all is available on Handshake and or Handshake, the job portal I should say. Um, the professional development workshops, other advisors and mentors that that could connect you with.

Benjamin Seid: (08:52)
Yeah. I, I think Handshake is really great. I use that a lot. That's a really good tool to know where companies are at career fairs, right. Uh, networking connection. Um, it's great. I Weston, uh, for example was like, Hey, you should meet this person. Or, you know, the connection between you and me right now was through Weston. And that's great. Right. Um, they just help you fine tune, uh, connect you to the right people that will propel you to where you need to be. And I think that's the really important part about the career services team downstairs, is you have to put in the work of meeting them for them to know you, to them to connect you to the right person. Um, and especially the right business. Because even though you might connect to someone at Fifth Third or another company, they might say, oh, I actually know someone in the right industry for you personally.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
Right. And the more initiative you show them.

Benjamin Seid: (09:36)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (09:36)
And the more work you put in with their relationship with them, the, the better they can do. They can make use of their extensive network of connections, which span the city and the region and nationally

Benjamin Seid: (09:46)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (09:47)
To get you a connection.

Benjamin Seid: (09:48)
There's so much alumni and especially that tool of the alumni page at LinkedIn. You can sit down with them for 20 minutes and they'll pull out 15 people to, for you to meet and they know. Right. You know.

Grant Freking: (09:56)
Right. Exactly. Yeah. So tell me a bit more about yourself and your current role at Triversity.

Benjamin Seid: (10:01)
Yeah. So I started Triversity last year when I graduated. Uh, you know, there's a, there's a slide show in the slide in career career success where you apply for a hundred, you maybe get 70 and you go and it's down to the 10%. Yep. Um, that did not happen to me with the co-ops. I walked in, talked to Bosch, talked to Toyota, and got the co-ops. That's not everyone. And that's just because I worked and met the right people and connected and put a lot of work ahead of time. I wanna say that because some people think, oh, that's everyone. It's not.

Grant Freking: (10:29)
Yep, everyone's gonna have a different experience.

Benjamin Seid: (10:29)
Everyone's gonna have a different experience. And the journey is fun. It might be stressful, it might be anxious, it might be depressing, but it's really important to go through that path.

Grant Freking: (10:37)
Yeah. It could be like you, where you find your, your right fits early, but you, if you persevere, you might find your, your right. Fits a little farther down the line too.

Benjamin Seid: (10:46)
100%. The, the career, the finding a full-time after college was a little harder than I thought. Um, coming into a lot of external things that happening in the world. Right. Weston was the support on that. I took the last semester off and I TA'ed for three career success courses for that whole semester. Three different professors three times a week. Um, same course, right. But it was three different industry professors. It was really great. And I talked to them about that and Weston helped me kind of guide that path. But during one water break down in the career success, 'cause I would sit there and grade homework, right. I would grade resumes. I'm like, oh, maybe I should try that on my resume. Or, you know, that's a, that's a big red flag. Or, you know, what, what all that. Um, Weston came up to me.

Benjamin Seid: (11:32)
He was like, Hey, I, I have someone that you should meet. Have you thought about construction? And I'm like, no, I, I did two HR internships and I did a project planning internship that is, yeah, okay, let's try it. Right. And he's like, it's a great company. It's in Walnut Hills, it's local. It supports kind of the mission that you're doing of people, people, uh, putting people first. Um, the team is small now. You know, we're Triversity right now is a hundred and 130 ish employees and we service from nonprofits to Fortune 500 companies. Right. So, and, and UC and a little bit of other things. Um, I was like, yeah, let's try it. You know, let, let's go for it. I think this is a great fit. Um, and I met the recruiter, uh, our team at Triversity, our HR team is just fantastic.

Benjamin Seid: (12:18)
They do a lot of cool things locally and kind of help our co-ops kind of gain skills. Go on the, my manager now, you know, you go in, it's like, oh, here's a 30 minute, uh, phone screening with the manager. Ended up being an hour, you know, and I was like, oh, that's a good, I felt that was a good step forward. Um, did a second interview with my manager and one of our project plan project engineer managers. Now I think he was an engineer then, but maybe a manager now.

Grant Freking: (12:46)
Mm-hmm .

Benjamin Seid: (12:47)
Um, he's running the Duke Energy Project. It's a convention center right now. So if you see that on the road, that's kind of one of his projects that he's helping with Messer and Alliance Project. But it's fantastic work. Then I met the COO now with the manager, so Robin and Ryan. Um, that was a great interview and we kind of just talked about what I like to do, what I'm interested in, process planning people first. Um, and that's, I mean, that all started with, uh, Weston saying, Hey, I have a recruiter that might, is interested in something for a risk analyst. Um, didn't think I would go into risk analysts or insurance kind of side thought I would be more operations. But I think this is the perfect fit for me for just building what I've done there from a co-op program to kind of pre-qual compliance work too.

Grant Freking: (13:30)
Just goes to show always take the call.

Benjamin Seid: (13:31)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (13:31)
Always take the lunch.

Benjamin Seid: (13:32)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (13:32)
Always take, you know, the LinkedIn connection. 'cause you just never

Benjamin Seid: (13:36)
Know. You never know. Yep. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (13:38)
So you started out, um, at UC blue Ash. Um, talk to me about Yeah. And the audience about like your path to getting here to the transition student. 'cause there are, we do have a number of students who, who take that path and how it ended up working out for you.

Benjamin Seid: (13:49)
Yeah, I think, I think Blue Ash, um, you know, I will say this. My sister went through Blue Ash in the main campus. Um, I, I did the same thing. I was hesitant about doing college in the beginning. And I, I will say that, but I thought, you know what, this is a great step of, I'll meet new people. I'll try new skills, do a co-op. Um, I started at Blue Ash 'cause I was like, okay, I'll get my associates there. Which I did. Meet new friends. I met a lot of friends that were at Lindner that commuted up there for like accounting. And that's kind of how I connected there, especially at career fairs.

Grant Freking: (14:19)
Okay.

Benjamin Seid: (14:19)
Um, love that. Great thing. Did two years there, transferred town to main campus. Completely different, completely new. Um, it took me about one semester to figure out, there's like a hill that you have to climb up to, uh, TUC.

Benjamin Seid: (14:34)
Uh, so I did that the first semester also. Yeah. TC Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, and it was great. I mean, coming that transfer was great 'cause it was kind of a community college feel, high school feel, but also very, the professors gave you a lot of skills in one-on-one work. Um, I think the big thing was coming to learn. You still had that, you still had the professor come to you, you have office hours. The classes are not like 85 people when I was in college. And so I could still connect to the professor and get help and learn skills and try new things at Blue Ash and then also at Lindner. So that was a perfect mix back then.

Grant Freking: (15:11)
Sure. And yeah, like you mentioned, you sort of determined your own level of how, how much you wanna take advantage of the ample resources that are available to you. Right. Yeah. Let's close with this. What are some tips you have for other Lindner students? Maybe you general uc students about finding their way at Lindner and college? What sort of, kind of overarching things can you think of there for not necessarily maybe surviving, but sort of like finding some success along the way and, and pushing forward?

Benjamin Seid: (15:37)
Yeah, I think, I think understanding who you are is very important. Um, I, I took a gap year, then I went to Blue Ash and I went here and I always kept the same thing of people, people first. I always say that I, I think that is kind of where I stuck to it and kept it to understanding where I need to go and who will support that. Every mentor that I've had, I've always like, this is the goal of me. They've always like, okay, great. I have someone to meet. You have someone, here's someone to meet. Here's a job. Maybe you wanna try, uh, here's a project, here's a project manager that's doing that. Um, but I also think like stepping out of your comfort zone was a big thing in college that I didn't understand from my parents. You know, they're like, oh, it's, it's just, you know, you learn skills, but you also step outta your boundaries and, and try new things.

Benjamin Seid: (16:21)
And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, great. No, it's super true. It's very true. Um, and, but if you get nervous or you get a little scared or whatever, the, the team here and your friends that you'll meet on campus are 100% here to support you throughout that whole process. Um, and the the biggest thing I think is I like to try new things, but I do need that little push. And so if you need a little push, I think following back to the career success team and your advisors here and just any staff, they can give you that little push, but also be right there behind you, uh, to make sure that you don't fall or fail. Um, but also I think locally, um, everyone in the community in Cincinnati and alumni around UC know that about this program Yeah. And about the school. And they're here to support you.

Grant Freking: (17:12)
Yeah. There's support systems that you can't even fathom that are, that are here as long as you are willing to make the connections and as you mentioned, push yourself a little bit.

Benjamin Seid: (17:18)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (17:19)
My thanks to Benjamin Seid for dropping by the Lindner Podcast Studio today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. To learn more about co-op visit business.uc.edu. That's business dot uc edu. Thanks for listening. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Hello there. Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. I'm excited today to be joined by Rachael Spoon, a 2021 Lindner graduate who has carved out her own path as an entrepreneur. Rachael is here to share how her upbringing and education has shaped her ambitions, how she landed on Lindner and the University of Cincinnati, and how a passion for the wedding industry prompted her to start her own business, Rae and Company Weddings. Welcome Rachael. Thanks for being here.

Rachael Spoon: (00:32)
Thank you for having me.

Grant Freking: (00:33)
Of course. Thanks for making the trip up from Tennessee. I'd like to start at the beginning with guests of the show. What was your upbringing like? Were you from around here? How did you kind of, you know, where are you from

Rachael Spoon: (00:44)
If we're taking it all the way back to the beginning. Okay. I was born in Boston, Massachusetts.

Grant Freking: (00:46)
Oh, okay.

Rachael Spoon: (00:48)
Until I was seven when my family moved here to technically Loveland, Ohio.

Grant Freking: (00:52)
Okay.

Rachael Spoon: (00:52)
Where I lived until 2021 and then moved to Clarksville, Tennessee with my now husband. Okay. Um, I have four siblings. I'm the oldest of four. Oh, wow. And the only daughter, so there is Michael. He is actually here at UC studying computer science. Okay. David is in Covington working at Fidelity Investments and Matthew is in high school looking to play soccer in college. So, okay.

Grant Freking: (01:21)
How was it being the only female amongst three younger brothers?

Rachael Spoon: (01:25)
They tease me.

Grant Freking: (01:25)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (01:25)
They say that I'm the spoiled only daughter. Um, I think there's pros and cons to being the eldest. I have a lot of the like oldest daughter tendencies. I'm a perfectionist, I.

Grant Freking: (01:36)
mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (01:37)
Maybe a little bit of a goodie two shoes, but

Grant Freking: (01:39)
Yeah. Little bit of Enneagram type one.

Rachael Spoon: (01:41)
Oh yeah. Sort of, yeah. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (01:43)
Nice. So what was your draw to UC and Lindner? Was it pure location? Was it academics? Do you, what, what was, that wasn't too long ago for you.

Rachael Spoon: (01:51)
No, it wasn't. So when I was in high school applying to colleges, I didn't realize how profoundly one school could shape my life. And so, although I admit that UC wasn't at the top of my list at the time, not because I had anything against it, but because I didn't really understand what I wanted or what I needed in a college experience, looking back, I'm convinced that it was all part of God's plan for me to end up here. And the community, the values, the opportunities, who I became, who I grew into, everything at UC made me who I am today. So if I could go back in time, I'd choose UC 12 times outta 10, even though it wasn't maybe my initial want for my college experience.

Grant Freking: (02:37)
Mm-hmm . Right? Sure. Yeah. I think there's no way of knowing like what's ahead of you when you're like in that really overwhelming, it's like your first big adult decision, right. Is choosing a college for the most part. And so it's like, how can you know what's ahead of you? And we're certainly glad you landed on UC. Take me back to your beginnings here at Lindner and UC. How did you, did you know you wanted to do entrepreneurship right away? I did not. Yeah. Most people don't know what major is that. It's completely normal. So how did you find your way to that?

Rachael Spoon: (03:00)
I knew I wanted business, so I came in as business undecided.

Grant Freking: (03:03)
Sure.

Rachael Spoon: (03:03)
And then I think it was probably my freshman year, I had this sort of questioning of what do I really wanna do with my life and what are my goals and what are my interests? And as I sat down and thought about, you know, I love interior design and I'm really organized and I like the idea of logistics and making things efficient. I landed on operations management and then after taking an operations management class, decided maybe that wasn't the best route for me. And I think it was my sophomore year came up with this idea for a one stop shop venue where there were multiple themed venues all sitting on one piece of land so that I could cater to multiple people's styles. And in the process sort of landed on the wedding industry as the ultimate goal. And then entrepreneurship felt like just a no brainer next step. That was, I mean, that was it. And then I took my first entrepreneurship class and had this, oh my gosh, this is me moment.

Grant Freking: (04:09)
It must have been pretty fulfilling, satisfying, and like a little bit of sigh of relief too. Absolutely. A little bit more than like the OM class, which is great for some people and not great for others. I don't think I'm with you. Om would be like a little too much for me.

Rachael Spoon: (04:21)
I love the efficiency and logistics.

Grant Freking: (04:22)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (04:22)
Of what I do. But as far as operations management is concerned, I just don't think that was, that was not my personality. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (04:31)
Right. What other sort of touch points were there along the way at Lindner that sort of helped you get to where you're doing not only, I guess what you're doing now, but like fulfill, like your entrepreneurship, like complete the, the entrepreneurship circle at Lindner? Was it certain classes, interactions with professors, clubs, organizations? What, what sort of other stuff that's in there?

Rachael Spoon: (04:48)
I have to give almost all of that credit to my academic advisor, Brittany. Mm-hmm . She,

Grant Freking: (04:56)
Brittany Wagner.

Rachael Spoon: (04:57)
Brittany Wagner. Yeah. She, um, when I had the idea for the venue, I started talking about it to all of my professors. I wrote all my papers about it.

Grant Freking: (05:03)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (05:03)
It was, it became everything. I carried around this little book with me all the time everywhere, so that if I ever had an idea, I could just jot it down no matter where I was or what I was doing. And in one of our meetings, I was, I think maybe swapping my major and we started talking about it. And so then every time I was going back to her, we were having more conversations about it. And when I graduated in 2021, she got engaged and she reached out and said, do you wanna plan my wedding? And I looked at her like she was crazy because no pressure. I've never done anything like that before. I knew I wanted to maybe go into that industry, but the idea had evolved then.

Rachael Spoon: (05:41)
And, you know, there were all sorts of other things going on, and I was graduating and didn't exactly have a plan. And I looked at her and I said, I don't, I've never done that. Are you, are you sure you want me to plan your wedding? And she was like, yeah, I think you'd be great at it. And so I did. And it was, the only way that I can even think to describe it is electric. Uh, there was electricity coursing through my veins the entire wedding day. I loved the chaos of the behind the scenes and the organizing all of the details, sort of a project management, if you wanna think about it. Yeah. But organizing all the details to get her to the wedding day. And that just kickstarted Rae & Co. So from there it's been wedding planning. And then to her credit too, I think it's setting me up for success when I do open the venue and I'm gonna have experiences and connections and real data and real clients to draw from when I'm doing that in the future.

Grant Freking: (06:43)
So you're almost like your most impactful experiential learning opportunity came like right after you graduated, but hey, you still got it though?

Rachael Spoon: (06:49)
I, I have to. Yeah. I mean, that was like the biggest one. That was why I started Sure. Rae and Co. So that, I have to give her credit there. But all of my professors were incredible. I think my, when I look back at my time at UC and I talk to people, I talk about my professors and my mentors, not the football games or the, you know, extracurricular or whatever.

Grant Freking: (07:13)
It's the people.

Rachael Spoon: (07:13)
It's, it really is the people. And it was my time here at Lindner that, that shaped my entire college experience. That's what I look back with the most fondness.

Grant Freking: (07:25)
And that's why you went wandering around the building before, before you, before you met me today. So yeah. It's, I'm glad it holds a special place for you. So let's go back, let's go back to some more of your activities within college. You were also in the, um, Ohio Army National Guard, right? Mm-hmm . Yes. So tell me about that experience.

Rachael Spoon: (07:42)
I enlisted straight out of high school with the intent of joining ROTC here at UC.

Grant Freking: (07:47)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (07:48)
Um, and, and then served for six years after that. So just got out in 2023.

Grant Freking: (07:55)
mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (07:56)
That's not just got out in 2023 . Um, I drove trucks. I was an 88 mike, so a motor transportation operator, and that was once a month, weekends and two weeks in the summer. So,

Grant Freking: (08:12)
So what was it the, the impetus behind that? Is that something you always wanted to do? Is something different? Is it familial connection to armed forces as well? Maybe that kind of drew you in.

Rachael Spoon: (08:22)
A little bit. We have a joke in my family that it is the family business. My mom was an engineer officer. Okay. My dad was an armor officer, both grandparents, both grandfathers served.

Grant Freking: (08:34)
mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (08:35)
And my husband is, is in as well. And then my, um, traitorous brother who joined the Navy instead of the Army ,

Grant Freking: (08:43)
She said, with the distain mm-hmm . So let's get back to, to your business. Where is it, where was it at at the beginning and sort of where is it at now? Kind of gimme like the two-sided view there.

Rachael Spoon: (08:53)
So the beginning is is Brittany. Is Brittany. Yeah. And, and then when I realized that it, I had this aha moment during her wedding of, oh my gosh, this is something that I wanna do. And so that was where I started and it was, I think it was probably pretty slow at the beginning. It didn't realize when you're in the entrepreneurship major, they talk about all these startups and this is how you get funding and you talk to angel investors and you do these things. And, but when you're actually starting and you have this, what feels like a very small idea, there's a lot more to it than just like going to find an investor or, you know, pitching your startup and getting crowdfunding. And so I built Rae & Co. All on my own. I did my website, I made my own logo. I, you know, paid for the Google Ads and built those out and researched and did everything. And I could not have done it without the support of my family and mentors that I have, but it was all me. It wasn't this, you know, big team effort where I had lots of, had this established business to build off of mm-hmm . So I don't know if that answered your question.

Grant Freking: (10:06)
It does. Now that leads me to doubt. Tell me about your, I'm sure you had moments of doubt along the way too, where like, is this worth it? Is this worth all my time? I'm sure you're spending on donating lots of weekend time to this around your otherwise busy schedule. Tell me, talk to me about doubt.

Rachael Spoon: (10:22)
I think that's a normal part of any entrepreneur's journey.

Grant Freking: (10:29)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (10:30)
And I do have these moments of am I qualified to be doing this? And am I actually good at doing this? And then the wedding day comes around and I have the aha moment again.

Grant Freking: (10:42)
Yeah. You shed the imposter syndrome. Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (10:44)
Yes. Absolutely. Um, I think even failure failure's not just a part of success, it's a necessary part of success. And I had stuff that happened at UC that was, it's kind of embarrassing, but I failed algebra mm-hmm . Like twice, and it took a third time to pass that class in order to even be able to graduate. So it's not just, oh yeah. Failure, failure is a part of success. It is a necessary part of success. And every single wedding teaches me something new every single time. And maybe the couple doesn't know about it, but something goes wrong every time. And sure. I have to adapt and improvise and overcome those things. So.

Grant Freking: (11:26)
Right. I'm wondering about how you acquire, acquire your, your clients. Um, not everyone of course, is like a former academic advisor waiting to be married to test you out. So how has it maybe evolved from, you know, is it easier now for you? How, how, how did, like the word get spread? Um, aside from like, you know, did the Google ads work? I'm interested in how you acquired your clients over the years.

Rachael Spoon: (11:46)
At the beginning, a lot of it was word of mouth.

Grant Freking: (11:48)
Mm.

Rachael Spoon: (11:48)
And then when I started the Google ads, that that really helped. They're very complicated. So I am now paying a digital marketing agency to run those for me and working with a consultant behind the scenes to fix my automations and workflow processes and my overall planning process to make me more efficient, which I love. Um, but there's been a definite, like the beginning was slow and I did two weddings my first year and then booked five in my second year. And now I have three in just May of this year.

Grant Freking: (12:25)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (12:25)
So there's, there's definite growth. There's, it's always, there's always things changing and moving and evolving and always small adjustments being made, but mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (12:38)
Do you run into other entrepreneurs, whether it's in the wedding industry, um, often and or maybe outside of it? And I'm curious if like they, you hear any feedback from them or like, you know, you know, you kind of give, maybe give 'em look like you're kind of going through it right now too. Is anything like that?

Rachael Spoon: (12:52)
I think almost all of the wedding vendors that I interact with are entrepreneurs.

Grant Freking: (12:56)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (12:56)
They're photographers who started small or florists who started in just their house and have grown their businesses. And so there's a lot of that sort of, oh, I really get what you're going through. And there's so many weird, complicated things about running a business that you don't even realize. Like filing for my LLC is a weird thing. I had to call the Department of Revenue to figure out where I needed to get my business license.

Grant Freking: (13:20)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (13:21)
And you need one for the county and the state and the city. Like, there's weird things that you just don't realize. And I have to, I have to give credit here to one of my mentors, Jeff Heineken. Um, I met him through UC actually. And he has helped so much with all of those small little things here and there. And, and then his legal expertise has helped me make sure that my business is protected, both from a planning perspective, but then as, as an LLC.

Grant Freking: (13:51)
You mentioned earlier, um, part of like your grand dream is the venue. Let's, let's hear more about that.

Rachael Spoon: (13:56)
Oh, well, that idea has evolved quite a bit since its original conception.

Grant Freking: (13:59)
Okay.

Rachael Spoon: (13:59)
But, uh, we're actually working right now. I have funding and we probably later this year will purchase land in close to Nashville, Tennessee. Mm-hmm . We're looking for about a hundred acres. And then there's going to be multiple venues that are all themed differently. So they'll be, you know, the, the generic sort of warehouse type barn space, blank space.

Grant Freking: (14:28)
mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (14:29)
Really pretty, but a blank slate.

Grant Freking: (14:31)
Sure.

Rachael Spoon: (14:31)
And then there'll be other themed venues. And I've, I've taken inspiration from like my travels and places I've been and things I've seen. So there'll be, you know, I want Castle Ruins that look like they were pulled straight out of Ireland and an Italian villa that looks like it was pulled out of Tuscany. And so I want to, we're, I think we're gonna start with three venues and then eventually get to more than that.

Rachael Spoon: (14:59)
But there's not, scale doesn't exist in the wedding industry. When you do a wedding, it's a, for me it's a 16 hour day, so I can't do more than one wedding in one day. And a lot of venues operate that same way. So there's one venue and there's one ceremony location, and there's one reception location, and they're stuck. So then they charge couples to turn the string lights on or to use the fancy chairs or to use their linens or whatever it is. And I experienced this with a lot of my couples, is this frustration that the venue was supposed to be X amount and instead it's x plus plus plus plus plus plus, right?

Grant Freking: (15:39)
Yep.

Rachael Spoon: (15:39)
And so the idea of my venue has evolved into this thing where we can achieve scale and we don't have to charge couples x plus plus plus, we can just charge them X.

Rachael Spoon: (15:52)
So because there are three weddings happening in one day in three different locations on the land, we don't have to charge them to turn the string lights on or to use the tables or the fancy chairs or whatever it is. And so I'm hoping to revolutionize the wedding industry. That feels like a very scary and big and daunting thing to say, but it was one of the first things I said when I was starting out and had this idea for the venue was, I wanna revolutionize this industry because it just doesn't exist this way anywhere.

Grant Freking: (16:24)
Yeah. What's the feedback you've gotten on, on that particular idea from, even from maybe couples that you've helped out or other, other people, other peers in the industry?

Rachael Spoon: (16:33)
All of my couples have said that they wish that it was already open so that they could get married there. , and industry professionals have said that they love the idea and I get a lot of like, oh, be careful of noise or be careful of, you know, this or that, things that they've experienced. But I've also taken that feedback and our venue is gonna be built with so much intentionality. So a lot of wedding venues that you go to, it's like an old, something that they turned into a venue or they had one wedding there because somebody liked the space and then they thought, oh, this is kind of easy. We can just do this and make money off of it, or whatever. We are building these venues from the ground up with every single detail well thought out from a client perspective, from a guest experience perspective, and from a vendor perspective.

Grant Freking: (17:26)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (17:27)
So I go to, I go to venues and there's nowhere for me to put my stuff. So I've put it in bridal suites and I've put it under the DJ stand and I've stuck it under the sink at the bathroom. I've put it in the kitchen. Like there's no, there's nowhere for me to have a touchdown space. So in all of our venues, we'll have a touchdown space. We'll have a, a large enough bridal suite that girls aren't stacked on top of each other and a groom suite, because so often grooms are just forgotten or

Grant Freking: (17:54)
Wandering around.

Rachael Spoon: (17:55)
Yeah. They wander or they get stuck in some small closet and they're like, here, hang out here for a little while.

Grant Freking: (18:00)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (18:00)
So they're getting ready at a different location. And I think that there's, I, I like the togetherness of it all happening in one place and it being done well. So

Grant Freking: (18:10)
Wwhat advice would you give to current or prospective students tips, tricks of the trade? Maybe not tricks of the trade, but sort of like, sort to sort of, um, maybe ease them of like the same concerns that you had about your, your life as a, as a freshman or a sophomore here at Lindner and sort and sort of propelling them on their own journey?

Rachael Spoon: (18:31)
My initial reaction to you saying that was, it was so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I had this, this grand idea of I'm gonna graduate college and I'm gonna start the venue immediately and I'm just gonna get all the money because this is such a great idea. But we're, I'm now four years outta college and only just now making these larger strides on the venue. But I think that my advice is to lean into like mentors and building a group of people around you.

Grant Freking: (19:08)
Yeah.

Rachael Spoon: (19:08)
That support you and pour into you and are excited about your excitement and your passions. Because I've been told no, but then I can turn around and someone says, well, they said no because they don't understand or they don't see the vision or whatever it is. And I don't think it's blind optimism. I think it's having a good support team and it's more than just, oh, my mom says it's a great idea. .

Grant Freking: (19:30)
Right. Yeah. So maybe some cheerleaders, but some like realistic cheerleaders. Absolutely. Right. Let's close with this. What's your favorite memory at Lindner and UC?

Rachael Spoon: (19:40)
That is kind of an easy answer for me. All right. And it is my junior year of college, which actually ended up being when COVID started.

Grant Freking: (19:49)
So, yeah. So we're off to a curious start here.

Rachael Spoon: (19:50)
Off to a curious start. Um, it was one of my entrepreneurship classes and we had to, everyone in the class had to come up with an idea. We had to pitch the idea to the class, and then we voted on only five or six of them. So I pitched my idea, my idea was selected, and then we had to build a team, create an actual product, and sell that product. So it was for refresh the responsible alcohol aid, which was specific supplements chosen to help remedy hangover.

Grant Freking: (20:25)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (20:26)
Symptoms, quote unquote. Um, and so when we began that semester in January of 2020, we had all of our, you know, we, we knew who our market was and we were gonna go to bars and we were gonna hand them out as people were walking in and get 'em to buy 'em and all this stuff. And then March hit when sure.

Rachael Spoon: (20:47)
When COVID happened and we stopped coming to school and we turned everything to online and we had to pivot and figure out who our new market was and how we were gonna sell this product. Because at that point we had already bought everything. We had to figure out how to assemble these little packets and get people to buy them. And I think COVID ended up being really helpful for that. 'cause people were home and so they were working from home. And so we sold them. I think we like put stuff out on Facebook and put stuff out on Instagram. And so people ended up reaching out and we beat this current, at the time, it was the current record for the most gross sales of anybody in that class ever. Um, I don't know if we're still the record. I hope so.

Grant Freking: (21:36)
You have to check with your professor.

Rachael Spoon: (21:36)
Fingers crossed. I'd have to ask. Yeah. But that was, is definitely, definitely a favorite, a favorite memory. I look back on that and that's what I talk about when people ask me about my time as a student in the entrepreneurship major. And then as a sort of a culmination of my four years, I was nominated by my professors as the outstanding student of the year.

Grant Freking: (21:58)
Mm-hmm .

Rachael Spoon: (21:58)
Or Entrepreneurship Student of the Year, my senior year. And that was, I think, one of my proudest moments because it was, they see the potential, they see that I, I have what it takes Yeah. To be an entrepreneur. And they saw the drive and the focus and the everything else from the past four years. So

Grant Freking: (22:22)
That's awesome. What great memory. All right. Well, my thanks to Rachael Spoon for dropping by the Lindner Podcast studio today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Rachael Spoon: (22:38)
Go Bearcats.