Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. Amanda, welcome. Thank you for being on Bearcats Mean Business today. Busy week for you. I know,

Amanda Wait: (00:36)
Yeah, my pleasure to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:38)
Let's talk about your job, just like full on job title start antitrust lawyer. I have no idea what that really means. , can you, can you explain that to me and, and to our listeners?

Amanda Wait: (00:46)
Sure. So, um, I think people might know more about what an antitrust lawyer does today than they did 20 years ago. When I started out in this profession, uh, fun story, when I told my parents that I was going to be an antitrust lawyer, they, uh, they're like, well, you can just be something sensible like an engineer . What does that even do? Um, so at most basic, an antitrust lawyer is charged with helping clients enforce the federal and state antitrust laws in the us. And what that means at, at a practical level, is ensuring that every company has the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. So there's gonna be winners and losers. Some companies will compete better than others, some will have better products and services. And it's really kind of, you know, back to economic principles, supply and demand. Okay. Whoever has the best products wins. And, uh, at most basic, we help clients tell the story of how, you know, what they're doing in their business or transactions that they are thinking about doing will ensure that that playing field stays competitive.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
Okay. Thank you for the breakdown. Is this something you envisioned when you were, um, taking business classes here at uc, or was this something that you thought of in law school?

Amanda Wait: (02:02)
No, I'm actually one of the few people who knew exactly what I wanted to do with my life from early on. I've been very fortunate in that area. So I decided to become an antitrust lawyer right around 1999, 2000 when I was studying economics here at uc. And there were two things happening. I was studying kind of microeconomics 1 0 1, and we were talking about supply and demand principles. We were talking about monopolization theories and kind of the basic principles that the US antitrust laws are, are founded on. And at the same time, kind of out in the world more generally, the US Department of Justice was suing Microsoft for alleged monopolization behavior. So I had a real life example as I was studying this in my textbooks of kind of how this plays out in the law. And I just became the biggest nerd and was following the Microsoft case with interest. And, you know, my interest kind of grew from there.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
Okay. Now, once you graduated and everything, you didn't necessarily take the safe route as something we talked about beforehand, um, in your career. In fact, um, you told me that you passed on the, you called it a generous offer from a New York City law firm to go work for the government. Why would you do that? ?

Amanda Wait: (03:15)
You know, my mom asked me the same question back then too. Um, you know, why would you take a job that pays a third of what you could make? Um, she, you know, kind of cried a little bit and asked if I would ever pay off my law school loans. Um, and I did, I did pay off my law school loans eventually in my forties . Uh, but, you know, I took the job because I think that there's more to life than money. And especially early in, early in your career, opportunities matter more than financial gain. And there's always time in your career to, to take the maybe more lucrative financial job. But if you can start your career off with great experience that will pay dividends later in your career. So when I was coming outta law school, I had the opportunity to work at a big New York, you know, kind of white shoe law firm, which kind of the dream that everybody aspires to when you're in law school or many people aspire to.

Amanda Wait: (04:12)
Uh, but I had the opportunity also to work at the Federal Trade Commission and be a frontline antitrust enforcer. And, you know, at that point I had been thinking about antitrust for about five years, you know, my time at here at uc, and then in law school. And I said to myself, you know, if, if I'm really gonna do this, if I'm really gonna be an antitrust lawyer and I wanna find out like what it's really like and what the day-to-day is, I've gotta go all in. Mm. And so I went to the Federal Trade Commission, and it was still one of the best jobs I ever had. I had amazing experience. I wasn't, um, you know, stuck in a room reviewing documents for a year, like many of my law school classmates who had chosen to go to law firms. This was back when you actually reviewed documents and not just on, you know, on computers or using

Grant Freking: (05:02)
Ai. I'm, I'm

Amanda Wait: (05:02)
With you. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I had the opportunity to lead cases and stand up in court and say, you know, I'm Amanda Wait. I'm here on behalf of the US government for the Federal Trade Commission. And that is a really powerful thing to say, and it was a lot of fun.

Grant Freking: (05:17)
Yeah. Aside, I was, my next question is, was gonna be, um, walk me through like the poignant moments you remember from that, or things that you maybe carry with you to, to your current role from that job to, from that job that's, that clearly led an, uh, left an impact on you.

Amanda Wait: (05:32)
Yeah, I mean, I think going to the government, um, you know, we had, we had small teams, and so you were kind of expected to be a lawyer from day one. You know, you didn't have a lot of time to kind of shadow people and learn how to do things. You really had to learn on the fly. So one of the most, um, interesting moments, I think in my early career was about a year into my practice at the Federal Trade Commission, someone came to me and said, you know, we're, we're staffing up a new matter. There is an issue around natural monopolization theory, and we have an economic witness on the other side, and we need to take his deposition. You have a degree in economics, , don't you wanna be the expert , uh, witness to, you know, take the person who takes the, uh, right, right.

Amanda Wait: (06:18)
The economic experts witness. And, you know, taking a deposition is hard enough, but taking the deposition of someone who testifies in court professionally as their job and has been doing so for 20 years as a professional PhD economist was very intimidating. Um, but I just rolled up my sleeves and did it. And I think the, what the lesson that I've taken from that is you have to give people the opportunity to reach, and you have to give people the opportunity to prove that they can do it. You can't just give people the jobs that you know, that they can do. And so now that I'm more senior in my career and I'm working with junior people, you know, I'll, I'll take a hard look at what tasks are coming up, and I'll say, who have I worked on with these kinds of projects? And I won't let them do the same thing again. Mm-hmm . I'll make them do the next thing. Do the biggest thing

Grant Freking: (07:13)
Intentionally expose them to other areas to knowing that it'll help them further down the road or help your team and your company, I'm assuming too. Right.

Amanda Wait: (07:20)
And you have to kind of stand back and let them do it, you know, and even though you know how to do it more efficiently, or you might know the slightly better question to ask, you kinda have to let people figure it out and be there as a resource for them, but, you know, give them opportunities just like I did. And I had those opportunities when I was more junior.

Grant Freking: (07:39)
Yeah. That's a hard thing to do, I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, let's talk about developing expertise. Your work demands, as you've mentioned, legal depth, but also industry fluency. How did you go about building that kind of cross sector knowledge in your position?

Amanda Wait: (07:53)
Yeah. Well, let me take a step back and just say, in antitrust, we have to learn a lot about industries. So we are advising on the competitive playing field, which looks very different from industry to industry. I do a lot of work in the healthcare sector, for example. And the way that hospitals compete to be in network with insurers is very different than how, you know, your supermarket down the street competes to get customers walking in the door. You know, those are two very different industries. Um, I also do a lot in kind of manufacturing and manufacturing for inputs. So the customers there are not, you know, people like you and me, uh, buying engines for things. Uh, but they're usually, you know, automobile manufacturers or, um, recreational vehicle manufacturers or other big companies that are buying things as inputs into products that they're then making and selling to others.

Amanda Wait: (08:51)
And so, again, very different competitive dynamics. And so, you know, I work in all of those industries simultaneously, and when a client calls and wants to talk about something that's happening in their industry, I have to know what's going on. Not just how do you make this widget or how do you put together a network for health services? But, you know, are there any recent moves in this space? Are companies innovating? Are there new companies coming in? Did their biggest competitor just get a huge capital infusion? You have to stay on top of all of this stuff because the clients are expecting that, you know, their business. Yeah. So that's a bit of the background. To go to your immediate question, I think AI helps a lot with this. Um, and it's a tool that we didn't really have even a couple years ago where I have, uh, for example, we use copilot at my law firm, and I have a daily copilot prompt that runs every morning at 6:00 AM that summarizes all of the emails that come in from different news sources in my inbox and pops out a summary.

Amanda Wait: (10:04)
And I can go through those, it contains links to the underlying articles, and I can skim through and I have it set up so that I'm looking at, you know, manufacturing industry publications. I'm looking at healthcare industry publications, I'm looking at tech publications. I'm looking at general news sources, but I can skim through the headlines and really stay on top of what's happening in all of those industries so that when my clients call and say, oh, hey, did you see that so and so just got bought out by this other competitor of ours? I can say, yes, I did see that. You know, what does that mean for you? Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (10:40)
Yeah. You touched on leadership a little bit earlier, but I want to circle back to that. Um, what other ways do you tend to show up as a leader in your position? And how has that evolved for you over your career?

Amanda Wait: (10:52)
Oh, that's a great question. I think leadership means a couple different things, and I think it's helpful to think about it in different buckets. So there's, you know, the big kind of big picture strategy leaders, you know, the where is this business gonna be in five years, kind of questions or the how do we innovate to stay relevant in our industry kinds of questions. And, you know, leadership at that level requires, you know, kind of being able to see around corners, seeing what's coming down the pike, seeing what your competitors are doing. Um, you know, I'm working right now in my law firm to help develop out a five year strategic plan for our DC office. And so we're trying to think through, you know, what impact is AI having on our business? How many associates do we need? Do we need partners in different areas and things like that.

Amanda Wait: (11:45)
Um, but I also think leadership means the day to day stuff. And that's, I think, a little trickier because it's, you know, one thing to put together a strategic five-year plan and then go out and hire in specific areas and execute on that plan. But I think the leadership on a day-to-day level is things around office culture, um, particularly around return to office. Mm-hmm . Has been a big challenge, particularly in the DC area where, uh, post COVID, I, um, it's really, really hard to get people physically in the building. Everybody wants to work from home. A lot of people move further out. Commuting distances are hard, traffic is horrible, parking is hard. You know, there's all kinds of reasons and you can only throw so many pizza parties, you know, to get people in the door, right? Um, and so as a leader in the organization, you have to have those little interactions every day.

Amanda Wait: (12:37)
So for example, I, I walk the hall every morning at 10 o'clock not to take notes or keep score who's here, who's not here, but to make the people who are there feel valued and, you know, give them a little love that, you know, we care about them as people and you know, we care that they're in the building and we care that they're there. We wanna hear what's going on with them, and we wanna hear what's going on with their families. Um, and so I think that is another kind of soft skill form of leadership that when you're trying to hit those big picture goals of building out an office or building out an organization or developing in certain areas, having the trust of your team and the culture around it that happens through those daily interactions is critically important to be able to execute on the bigger stuff too.

Grant Freking: (13:24)
Yeah, those, I like that answer a lot. Those personal touches mixed with the strategic, um, vision. Where did you pick up on that? Is that something that this comes gradually with experience, or is there, are there specific mentors or leadership figures that you've had sort of modeled this behavior after?

Amanda Wait: (13:40)
You know, I think it was just because I saw how I wanted to be treated. Okay. You know, when I was more junior, I entered, uh, practicing law in the early two thousands where, um, after I left the Federal Trade Commission, I joined a law firm in, in 2007, where, you know, and this wasn't specific to that law firm, but the culture and law generally was a lot of face time and a lot of long hours. We didn't have the ability to work remotely for client confidentiality and security reasons. We couldn't access firm networks from our homes. Um, so that meant, I, I had a pillow and a sleeping bag under my o under my desk in my office, and I ordered takeout a lot, for, for, for office dinners and was in, in the office quite a bit. And, you know, at various organizations where I've been, over time, I've seen how office leadership and office management would, you know, interact with the people who were there kind of pulling the all-nighters or working really hard for, for clients.

Amanda Wait: (14:43)
And, you know, I saw, frankly, people with leadership titles who, you know, would swing by your office at seven o'clock at night and say, Hey, I'm going out to dinner with some clients, you know, have that thing on my desk in a couple hours, or have, have that thing on my desk for the morning. And then they were gone for the night. Then I saw the leaders who were like, Hey, I'm really sorry that you have to be here tonight. I have this client dinner that I have to do, but I'll be back in two hours and let me know how I can help. And those are very different messages that come across to junior folks and organizations. And so I think that I've always seen through my own experiences, you know, leadership as not just being the title or, you know, the person that has the role, but leadership is how you build the culture.

Grant Freking: (15:34)
Yeah. Inherent to leadership and, and also inherent to your position are the, uh, the ethical areas. How do you, um, navigate these ethical gray areas when the stakes are so high for you in your position? And I guess, what are the principles to, to that lead you to like the quote unquote right answer when it's, maybe it's not so obvious?

Amanda Wait: (15:52)
Yeah. I mean, for lawyers, we have a lot of guidance on what is and is not ethical. Mm. And, um, I will say the vast majority of lawyers, at least, that I have interacted with over the course of my career, take ethics incredibly seriously. Um, as part of my license, uh, for the Commonwealth of Virginia, I have to take ethics credits, um, continuing legal education every year, and I have to certify to the Virginia State Bar that I have done that, and that I have taken these courses, um, and that I'm staying on top of what the, the ethical rules are in the jurisdictions where I practice. Um, I think aside from the technical rules, um, at least for the lawyers that I work with and that I've interacted with, we all take ethics incredibly seriously because our life and our livelihood is on the line.

Amanda Wait: (16:43)
And it is just not worth it to take risks on your law license or your practice and your reputation. Um, you know, if you lose your law license in one jurisdiction, every other jurisdiction where you're license to practice will also pull your law license, and then you're out of a job and what do you do? You know, we've got mortgages to pay just like everybody else. Mm-hmm . So I, you know, I think it's something we take very seriously. Um, most law firms and other organizations have their own general counsels who are the lawyers for the entity, for the law firm or for the organization. And I have built great relationships with those folks. Over time, when there are gray areas, I will seek guidance internally. Um, there's also bar council for the state bars where people are practiced that can give, um, guidance on anonymous basis.

Amanda Wait: (17:35)
So there's a lot of guidance out there. Um, now that all said, clients do come to you and have a lot of questions, and your job as a lawyer is to assess the risk for your clients. We are not the decision makers, we're not the business people. We're not the ones that say, you know, do this. Don't, you know, here's what you're going to do. We just advise and they make decisions. And so our job as counselors and advisors is to, you know, sometimes ask the question, you know, well, how do you look in orange? You know, do you really ? Do you really wanna end up in jail because that's where this is gonna go. Um, if you go down this path, most of the work that I do is civil. So my, my clients, I've knock on wood, have never had a client go to jail, at least not for anything that I was advising on. Yeah. Um,

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Put that on your LinkedIn .

Amanda Wait: (18:25)
Yeah. Maybe that should be my tagline. Yeah. Amanda. Wait, lawyer has never sent a client to jail. . I don't think my firm would like that too much. Yeah, probably not. Um, but you know, we, we do have to sometimes be the bad guy in the room. Yeah. And clients are coming to me with big ideas and big ideas that are gonna transform their business that they have been thinking about for a long time. And so it's really hard sometimes to be the person who taps the brakes on that and says, you know, maybe this isn't the best idea. Maybe this will not put you in compliance with the laws that you need to be in compliance with. But that always creates an opportunity and it creates an opportunity to build your relationships with your clients. So going back to the question that you had earlier about staying on top of the client's business, sometimes I will go to clients and say, well, maybe you can't do it exactly this way, but here's what I saw another company doing. Would something like this work for you? Yeah. Because I think there's a way that you could do it like this instead of doing it like that and, you know, then you are more in compliance or here's your, here's your risk level. You know, this is gonna be higher risk, this will be lower risk, but you know, it's up to you what your risk tolerance is. And then as the outside lawyers, we just have to document the advice that we gave in case it goes, uh, sideways.

Grant Freking: (19:48)
Yeah. Instead of an outright no options. And giving them degrees of certainty, I guess.

Amanda Wait: (19:53)
Yeah. We try really hard not to be the department of No. Right.

Grant Freking: (19:56)
Yeah. As, as easy as that can be sometimes. Uh, going off that, uh, the tension and difficult conversations that I'm sure you experience with your clients, um, on a, probably almost a near daily basis is really interesting to me. How do you navigate those stormy waters? Um, does, like, do you have like walk in like, okay, this, this one's gonna be a tough one. Do I have, do you have like a checklist or coming in with like, make sure I do this, this, and this with this client? Um, how, how do you kind of navigate those situations?

Amanda Wait: (20:24)
So first I think it's important to kinda understand the personalities. So I'm often coming in at a pretty high level in an organization. So I'm either directly advising A CEO or a chief legal officer or, um, CFO, you know, kind of c-suite level, um, folks within a, within a client, or I'm coming in and advising the board, uh, because they're making a strategic business decision that requires that level of approval. And so I think just with any professional, um, presentation or anytime you're coming in to be an expert at that level, it's really important to understand the personalities and where people are coming from. And you don't have to come in cold. Um, you know, there are people in the organization who know the personalities involved. And so having a close relationship with the general counsel or the chief legal officer or you know, the CEO or the chairman of the board, or whoever, whoever's the closest contact, I think it's incredibly helpful and almost necessary to talk to them ahead of time and say, okay, tell me who's gonna be in the room, who's gonna like this decision that you're gonna make?

Amanda Wait: (21:34)
And who more importantly, who's not gonna like it and what's their objection gonna be? Um, so that I can help anticipate that. And then I think it's important to come into the difficult conversations and just, you know, state the elephant in the room. This is a hard choice. I know you are facing a hard choice. I have worked with clients who faced these same kinds of hard choices. Um, I don't mean to minimize that in any way, but here's how you can navigate that. Here's how you know, you can make this decision and take that consideration into account, even if it's something that's not directly an antitrust related concern. So lemme give you an example. Okay. I'm often working with clients who are considering large strategic mergers and acquisitions, usually in the multi hundreds of millions of dollar range. These are big choices. Most of my clients are, are public companies.

Amanda Wait: (22:27)
So these are, these are decisions that have SEC reporting obligations attached to them. Um, they're oftentimes decisions that are coming with job implications. So, you know, you merge two companies together. You don't necessarily need two CFOs or two CEOs, and you've got the people in the room whose jobs might be on the line as a result of this. And so it's very, um, a sensitive line to walk to say, you know, you have to do what's in the best interest of the company. That's, that's your job as an outside counsel, and that's the board's job as a fiduciary for the organization. But knowing that your decision might impact your friend who's the CEO is, is really tough. So I think just coming in and saying like, you know, we know this is tough. This is, uh, this is not gonna be an easy decision. But, you know, kind of having the sideline conversation saying like, look, if this deal goes through and you CEO are now looking for a new position, I have lots of clients that are looking for CEOs. Let me help you with that. Right. Um, so there's ways you can navigate that, you know, kind of strategically. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (23:35)
A delicate dance to be sure. Mm-hmm . Has there been a case you've worked on that really changed your perspective on markets or competition or any of the various areas that you've worked on?

Amanda Wait: (23:45)
So, in 22 years of being an antitrust lawyer, I've become a little insufferable around competition. 'cause I get the pleasure of working with clients in all different kinds of industries. And it impacts, um, just everyday life. I look around the world and I see things that I've had the opportunities to touch upon in my antitrust life. And, you know, it, it's just, um, it's fascinating and I, I absolutely love it. So, for example, I'm just here in this podcast room and there is a case of water sitting on the floor. I have worked on cases involving, um, supply chain for supermarkets and big box retailers. I know exactly how that case of water probably got here. , I've worked on, uh, cases involving retail food distribution. So maybe your, maybe your case of water came through a food distributor instead of through a supermarket. Yeah. I, I can tell you all about that.

Amanda Wait: (24:41)
I drive down the highway and I see my client's, uh, distribution trucks driving down the road. And if I'm not driving, if someone else is driving the car, I will literally take pictures of semi-trucks on the highway that belong to my client, and I will send them pictures and say, I saw one of your trucks today, . Um, uh, in terms of, uh, any particular cases that are interesting, I had an opportunity pretty soon after I left the Federal Trade Commission and went into private practice to represent Delta Airlines in their merger with Northwest Airlines in, in 2008. And that has changed how I travel, it has changed how I think about airlines. It has changed how I think about flight scheduling. It has changed, you know, even how, what I think about when I'm sitting in an air airport gate waiting to board a flight, um, I just learned so much about how airlines work, and it's such a fascinating industry. Um, I also could probably tell you any airport in the US based on, its three digit FAA code still, you know, 15 years later. So you can, you can test me out, but, um, my favorite airport code is Sioux City, which Sioux City's airport code is SUX.

Grant Freking: (26:04)
Okay. . Nice. I'm sensing a future podcast. Future podcast from you, Amanda Wade on airlines, .

Amanda Wait: (26:11)
Yeah. It's, it's a, it's really fascinating.

Grant Freking: (26:14)
Nice. All right. Let's, last couple of questions here before I let you get, get on a, a plane. Um, can you gimme some background on how you've been involved with the Kautz Uible Economics Institute, which is one of our center's, institutes here at Linder in a wonderful institute and, and why this institute means so much to you?

Amanda Wait: (26:30)
Sure. So, um, when I was an economic student back, uh, starting in 1997, uh, I had the opportunity to apply for a scholarship, which, um, the institute then was called the Hewitt Kautz Fund. And the scholarship really changed the whole course of my life. Um, I was able, and, you know, lucky, fortunate, honored to receive a two year financial scholarship as part of that, um, part of that fund. Mm. And graduated from undergrad with no student debt, which to me was incredibly important as I was thinking about law school. And, um, it enabled me to apply to law schools outside of the Cincinnati area. I ended up going to William and Mary in Virginia, and if I had had student debt from my undergraduate education, I don't think I would have been able to take on additional debt, you know, in law school and, and had the courage and kind of financial wherewithal to be able to move halfway across the country in a state where I had no relatives, no family, and just kind of start over there.

Amanda Wait: (27:37)
Um, so it was incredibly, um, incredibly financially supportive for me. And so I was thrilled, um, several years ago when I had the opportunity to join the board, uh, of that fund. So I've been very involved, um, probably for 14 years or so now, and just working with, uh, with Dan Kautz and Woody Uible and Debashis Pal, and seeing their vision for the economics department and really seeing philanthropy in action. You know, how much good we can do as an institute to support our students, to support our alumni, to support our professors and the department. Um, I think we've just done really great things. Uh, so maybe as an example, one of my, my personal projects within the Kouts BU Economics Institute, uh, started about 10 years ago where we founded what's now called the eConnect Initiative, which is, um, loosely organized, uh, group that provides mentoring and support to current economic students.

Amanda Wait: (28:42)
So for example, today here in about an hour or so, we're hosting a lunch for the economic students. We're having a couple other alumni come into town. We do this every spring and every fall. Mm-hmm . To talk about careers in economics, what you can do with an econ degree, how you can be ready for your internship, how you can explain why an econ degree is actually the best degree to get, uh, and can create more opportunities for you, especially if you pair it up with another degree within the College of Business. And it can just create opportunities that not having an econ degree, you know, won't necessarily get for you.

Grant Freking: (29:20)
Right. And you remain connected to not just the institute and here at Lindner, but also all of you see through your work with the foundation. You know, you, you mentioned some of the work that you also have done, guest lectures. Um, what overall motivates you to stay engaged, I guess, aside from like your, the, the personal experience that you have, um, but sort of expanding the, your, your view on it a little wider. What motivates you to stay engaged in that sense? And what do you hope students take away from your interactions with them?

Amanda Wait: (29:48)
Uh, well, well, first I love just coming on campus. Um, there's so much energy, it's so much excitement, and I just feel very energized every time I come on campus. The campus looks very different today than it did when I first stepped on foot here as a student in 1997. You know, main Street wasn't here. Yeah. This beautiful building that the Linner College of Businesses in wasn't here. Um, and I just love seeing the transformation of our wonderful university into the just world class research institution that we are today. So that itself is energizing. I love talking to students and, you know, hearing what they're doing. There's, there's so much that the Linner students are doing these days. They're running organizations, they're entrepreneurs. They're starting their own businesses. I mean, they're so far ahead of where I was when I was a student here. It's, it's just great to see.

Amanda Wait: (30:41)
Um, and then I think you asked about, you know, inspiring students. I'll tell you a story. When, when I first, uh, became a Hewitt Kouts fellow and received the scholarship, they did a, a kind of meet and greet, uh, awards dinner. This was back in the old alumni center, which, um, is actually physically in the same space that the Lyner College of Businesses today. And I remember, this is gonna sound a little silly, but, um, you know, it was like the fanciest thing that I had ever been to in my life. There was a harpist I remember very vividly. Okay. There was this, a harpist from CCM maybe to

Grant Freking: (31:19)
Bring that harpist back.

Amanda Wait: (31:21)
I, I've talked to Dan Kautz about this. Okay. , um, good. But I, I remember walking in and there was a harpist and, and everybody was just dressed so nicely, and it was just a fancy event. And I had the opportunity to meet Jim Kautz, uh, who was the original founder of the Hewitt Kouts Fund, which he named in honor of one of his professors. And Jim for, for those who don't know, um, he was a principal at Goldman Sachs. And I remember thinking, and I, I've told Dan his son this story too, that he had the nicest suit that I had ever seen in my life. . And, and you know, he just must be a really important person. But my takeaway from that is, isn't it great that somebody who has a big job and he works in New York and works for Goldman Sachs, that I had to actually look up, I didn't know what it was back then, uh, would spend his time to come here and meet somebody like me. And it gave me the opportunity and kind of encouraged me to think big. And I, I don't remember exactly what we talked about during that conversation, but I remember coming away from the conversation thinking, wow, I could do a lot with my life. I could do anything. And I would love to be able to be that kind of inspiration for students here too. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (32:43)
It's, you never know the impact you can have just with like one small conversation that they can leave you with. I know that's happened for me in my own separate journey with my mentors. And it's great that you feel like you have that ability to maybe possibly be the influence for, for our students too.

Amanda Wait: (32:58)
Yeah. And you know, it wasn't that I came away from the conversation with, with him, you know, wanting to be an investment banker in New York. Sure. That that wasn't what I wanted. But you know, just the fact that we had alumni of our department who were willing to kind of show you what you could do was, um, something that has, that has stuck with me for now almost 30 years. Right.

Grant Freking: (33:20)
Well, Amanda, that's all I have for you today. I appreciate you being here. Thank you very much.

Amanda Wait: (33:23)
Thank you. It was my pleasure.

Grant Freking: (33:25)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Doug Conant, it's, it's such a pleasure to have you here at Lindner. I appreciate you on many levels, and now today we, I'm thrilled to be able to share some of your learnings and inspiration with others. So thank you again for being here.

Doug Conant: (00:44)
Oh, I feel blessed to be here on a beautiful day in the spring. Beautiful day. Can't beat it,

Marianne Lewis: (00:49)
Especially on a campus. Yeah. It just all comes alive. It's so vibrant. Um, you know, I, I'd love to, to dive in with, into some of your CEO and Chairman lessons because you've, you've certainly had quite a few. I think the challenge is to winnow it down, and I'd love you to share, you know, one or more of your most vital or likely toughest leadership decisions. Um, because as you and I have talked about before, from balancing responsibilities to shareholders versus employees or money and mission, and in your turnarounds of Nabisco Campbell Soup as Avon chairman, uh, give, give us something that gives us a sense of, you know, what is a really tough leadership decision and how do you work through it

Doug Conant: (01:32)
In 25 words or less. There you go. Be a piece of cake easy. Uh, no, uh, you know, it's funny. Things become more clear as you start to step away from fighting through the day to day. And it's funny because I'm very reflective these days. Mm-hmm . On March 15th of this year, I celebrated my golden anniversary of 50 years as a corporate leader. Uh, on March 15th, 1976, I started my career in brand management at General Mills, right. After getting my MBA from the Kellogg School. It wasn't even called the Kellogg School, then. It was the Graduate School of Management Science at Northwestern. And, uh, and so I've had 50 years of, 52 weeks a year of navigating the choppy seas of the corporate world. Mm-hmm . Uh, 52 years worth of challenges every day and having, what are we gonna do on Monday conversations? And I've had the privilege of working with now 52 people who have worked for me, who have gone on to be CEOs.

Doug Conant: (02:40)
So that's extraordinary. You know, the experience, uh, has been, it's been an amazing ride considering I started at, out at the very bottom. I've had 28 bosses in my career. I've been, and they had 28 bosses. So basically I had 56 bosses and, uh, I had about 20 roles in my first 25 years. And, and two roles, basically my last two or three, my last 25 mm-hmm . But the lessons I'm gonna share with you today, yeah. They applied to when I started, when I was in the middle of the journey and when I ended the journey. So these will come from a former chairman, CEO, but there are life lessons that apply to every step along the way. And the f there, there are are two of them. Uh, one is that it's all about people. Mm-hmm . You have to bring a people first mentality to the work.

Doug Conant: (03:48)
Uh, there's a, there's a quote, which I won't get right, from a Rabbi Hillel the elder, uh, before Christ, uh, who basically said, uh, uh, treat others as you would like to be treated. And all the rest is just rhetoric, , everything. El And, and he's, and he said that about the Torah. Everything else in the Torah is just rhetoric. You treat people properly and okay. And everything else is just rhetoric. And I found over 50 years in all of my roles with all of my bosses, that it's true in the corporate world, and it's true in life, uh, in the fullness of time. If you wanna have enduring impact with people, uh, you need to treat them as you would wanna be treated. You need to honor them and respect them. You can win in the short term if you wanna be a bully. We've seen mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (04:57)
Evidence of that in, in the political world these days. But there's no evidence in all of human history that that is a sustainable proposition. And there's su certainly no evidence in the corporate world. My 50 years is 20% of the, his in the, in the corporate world is 20% of the history of the country. It's about 50% of the history of the corporate world as we migrated from a, an agrarian society mm-hmm . To an industrial society. And through it all, I think people first is the one thing that resonates with me, the lesson I've learned, and it's never let me down. Not as an assistant product manager, a product manager, a marketing director, a vice president in sales, in strategy, in marketing, a general manager. It's never let me down. So that's the first piece. The second piece, and it's pretty straightforward, is that leading is hard.

Doug Conant: (06:05)
And, uh, it's not just one thing. But if I had to boil it down to one thing in terms of how you lead, and it builds off this people first mentality, it's that you have to be tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people, not one or the other. Both. You have to bring an abundance mentality to the work. Because look, the reality is if you're not getting the job done as expected, you won't have the job very long. And so as a CEO, you have maybe three years the first year it's the other guy's fault. The second year it's our fault. We're learning the third year. You own it. And so you've gotta be performing Yeah. In a way that promises to your bosses and whoever you're reporting to your shareholders, the the promises that it's gonna be better tomorrow than it is today. And then you gotta demonstrate that time and again.

Doug Conant: (07:00)
Mm-hmm . And so you've gotta be very performance oriented. But I've also learned that going back to the people first mentality, if you don't put people first there, when you're not in the room, they won't necessarily champion the agenda that you've created with them. And so they have to champion it because they want it. And the way they do that is, uh, the way you bring them into the effort in a fulsome way is by being kind. You know, uh, I have a favorite saying, uh, Conan O'Brien, who just hosted the award ceremony. Uh, he has a great saying that I, I wrote a piece about, about 10 years ago, and his saying is, work hard, be kind, and amazing things will happen. And you know what, in my career, I've worked hard. I've been kind all along the way, I've been tough-minded on standards of performance and amazing things have happened, not just for me, but for all the people that have been, been on the journey with not perfect, but it's, it's largely, it's worked nicely. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (08:04)
Oh, I, I mean, you and I have talked about that one before. You know, I, I studied paradox and competing demands, and I remember a conversation with you probably a year ago where I talked about one of the challenges I'm seeing increasingly with executives and rising leaders is between tough and kind. And you gave me the tough-minded, kind-hearted and, and ex examples of that. And I want you to know it stuck with me deeply. I think it's a very powerful lesson. You know, another, not, maybe not so much a lesson, but kind of a motto that I've heard you say that I'd love you to talk a little bit more about, is something I've seen from the Conant leadership website to other places, is your line to win in the marketplace, you must first win in the workplace. I, I'd love to hear how and when did you come to this conclusion, and if there's more that we should understand about that motto.

Doug Conant: (08:54)
Well, we can unpack it a little bit. Yeah. That's, but it grows out of my belief and my experience and my study. It's not just my experience. I'm talking about, I've been a student of leadership for 50 years too. You really have, and I've taught it. I was chair of the Kellogg Executive Leadership Institute for five years. I'm, so, I'm deeply steeped in this leadership conversation, both as a practitioner and as as a student. Uh, in my experience, it grows out of, and all the studies indicate this, that you have to, if you want people to champion your agenda, they have to genuinely believe that you're appreciating their agenda. Mm-hmm . It just won't work any other way. So if you're not paying attention to their agenda, you can't count on them as an enterprise to be champion yours. So you gotta put first things first.

Doug Conant: (09:47)
And you can't, you just can't win. I just have seen no, no evidence that you can win in the marketplace in an enduring way unless you've got the enterprise with you and working the same process that you are. Uh, and as long as I found that, as long as I focused on creating the right environment for my team, and I challenged them to perform at a certain level, we worked on that, and then I supported them, uh, we did well mm-hmm . And the only times where when I was shortsighted and had a deal with an emergency and didn't make the best decision, we struggled. And I put that more on me than I do on them, because if I had created the right conditions for it, they would've found a way through. Mm-hmm . But I had to deal with something that demanded an expedient reaction.

Doug Conant: (10:41)
I didn't manage it probably as well as I could have. And, uh, so I think that's the key. You gotta win in the market, in the workplace before you can ever expect to win in the marketplace. Absolutely. I think it's even more true now than when I was starting, because now, uh, you're more dependent on those frontline workers to do the job because, uh, in the last two decades, the organization hierarchies have collapsed, and managers are now managing three times as many people. Right. And all, also, the jobs have changed. Mm-hmm . It used to be, when I started, if I didn't know what to do, I would go ask my boss, how do I do this? They can't go ask their boss now. They get sent to the help desk or ask a coworker, you know, well, then what are you doing, boss? Uh, and so if you want them to be more autonomous, which they have to be mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (11:36)
You really much more self-managed, you, you, you really better be creating a culture where they think you've got their back. They shouldn't only think it, they should know it. Right. And there should be evidence of it. So it's even more important now than it was before, because I, even if I wanted to do your job, I couldn't do it for you. Mm-hmm . So I'm counting on you. And if I'm that dependent on you, I, I need to recognize that and recognize that I need to be helpful to you if you are to be fully helpful to the enterprise. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (12:11)
I, I, I think that's powerful learning. Um, you, you and I are, are both, uh, disciples in varied ways of, uh, Warren Bennis. And one of my favorite, and I have a lot of favorites I suppose, but of, of his insights is, is about the power of crucible moments that you, you really find yourself particularly as a leader, um, being honed in the hardest times. And one that has stuck out in conversations I've had with you. You certainly write about it in, in your book. Um, the blueprint is that you're quite pub public about having been fired from a director level role early in your career. I, I'd love you to share a little bit about what you learned from that very clear crucible moment.

Doug Conant: (12:55)
Well, uh, you're gonna make me relive that again, . Um, I, I, once I wrote about it, it seems to come up a lot. And when it happened, when I lost my job back in the 19, early 1980s, and, uh, I had moved to Boston from my home from where I had started my career in Minneapolis, still working for General Mills, uh, the first company I worked for. And, uh, they, uh, and I was in the Parker Brothers toy and game company, which was a blast. I was director of marketing for toys and games. Uh, but they went through some difficult times. That industry tends to grow and shrink based on the latest hit. And we were drifting into the electronic game age out of the traditional board game age. So we were scrambling to make it all work. Ultimately, they downsized and they decided they didn't need me.

Doug Conant: (13:55)
And, uh, they let me go. Uh, I went into work one day. Uh, the assistant said, uh, so and so would like to see you in his office on the executive floor. I went up to the executive floor. He couldn't look at me. He said, Doug, your position's been eliminated. You need to be out of here by noon. Ouch. And so and so will escort you down. And there wasn't even a, I've worked for the company for 10 years. It wasn't even a hatch. It was so awkward for him. Oh, I mean, I, I I understand that. I've had to let people go too. Yeah. Uh, but you need, there's a better way. Mm-hmm . But I, under, I understood it and I went home, but I was, uh, furious. And, uh, I went home to my wife, the two, my our two small children and my one very large mortgage feeling every bit the victim there.

Doug Conant: (14:47)
And I ended up working with an outplacement counselor who really helped me sort through how to deal with a crucible moment. And that was a crucible moment. I was outta work for nearly a year. Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, basically he basically said, you know, Doug, if you're really stuck, the way to get out of this is to go in and to be reflective on the things, what matters most to you. You know, there's this quote by, uh, a former beatnik, uh, Ambrose Red Moon who passed away in 1996. And he, he basically talked about courage as, uh, it's, uh, it's easy to, in order to manifest courage, it's not, it's the, in order to manifest courage, it's not about, uh, there has to be something more important that motivates you. And so he was basically saying, Doug, what's important to you? Yeah. You know, you're afraid you're outta work what's important and what matters most to you, which goes back to some Stephen Covey language that you and I've talked about in the past.

Doug Conant: (16:16)
And Warren Bennett's language. And so what I learned in that process was I had to get anchored on what mattered most to me. 'cause I wasn't showing much courage. I was on my heels. I was worried about supporting my family. I like anybody mm-hmm . And, but I wasn't coming across, and I'm an introvert. I wasn't coming across as somebody, you just wanna jump through hoops to hire. Right. And, uh, I was sort of shell-shocked. And, and he's, so, he, he basically made me hand write my life story on 50 pages, both sides. And he wanted handwritten. He thought there was more to it than that. And actually, there was, uh, and I said, I don't have time to write all this stuff. I gotta get a job. He said, on the other hand, this is the perfect time. 'cause you don't have a job. Let's do the work.

Doug Conant: (17:09)
I want it in two weeks. So I spent two weeks writing basically my life story. And we talked about it afterwards. He said, well, what did you learn? I, I said, well, I come from an amazing family history. Uh, my forefathers pioneered this country. They dealt with a lot more challenging things than I have in front of me. And they found their way through. I come from pretty hardy stock. I need to lift my game. I need to be more intentional about what I'm doing. I need to take charge of this thing. And so I did, and I started acting with purpose. I started acting more intentionally. Uh, I started to manifest the courage of my convictions, which was a big deal because I wasn't showing courage before. But that was because I didn't know my convictions. Mm-hmm . I , it's hard to show the courage of your convictions if you don't know what your convictions are. Yeah. And so I, I learned from that experience that I needed to bring courage to the work. And I couldn't be courageous until I was incredibly well anchored in who I was and what I wanted to do, knowing that it might change mm-hmm . But at least I needed to be really well grounded. And, uh, and that was the big lesson learned there. And I think that's true for all of us today. I mean, gosh, uh, it's only gotten more chaotic

Marianne Lewis: (18:35)
For

Doug Conant: (18:35)
Sure in the workplace and in the, in the country, in the culture. And the more things swirl around you, the more well anchored you need to be in order to deal with it all. That's right. And the one thing you can't do is succumb to that. You've got, in order to get out of this, you gotta go in mm-hmm

Marianne Lewis: (18:55)
. Well, and, and you know, I I, I wanna stress that you and I've talked as well, that you, your book where you really write more about this power of reflection and how to put it into practice. Your book called The Blueprint, um, has some wonderful methods of reflection. And I, I took it seriously myself and, and used your approach. And over, I guess it was a four day period, when was it, Doug? A couple years ago. Yeah. When my family was away, and I just had quiet for four days. And it is powerful to really go in, in that way. And, and I know it might, it's, you make me laugh when you say, you know, oh, you're gonna make me relive that horrible experience again, being fired. But I also think it's, it's incredibly important, especially when we have opportunities to talk when I have, and you have opportunities to talk to rising leaders or students as they're starting. They have to understand that you were them. Yeah. Once upon a time, you don't just come out.

Doug Conant: (19:53)
Oh, they're far ahead of where I was. . I mean, I was pretty pathetic for a whole host of reasons. But, uh, you know, I have learned that if you, if you get anchored on, you know, Stephen Covey used to say, Doug, you just gotta re you gotta remember, you gotta keep the main thing the main thing. Yeah. And he would say, what's your main thing? Yeah. And, uh, sounds so trite, but it wasn't.

Marianne Lewis: (20:19)
Oh, it's so hard to get, boil it down to

Doug Conant: (20:21)
It. You know, we have these life experiences that are teaching us what the main thing is. But I, in my case, I was just putting all those in the parking lot, and I was moving on with my life, and I wasn't really learning from them. I was just dealing with the new boss, the new situation, trying to react and navigate. And what I learned is the main thing was in my parking lot. I just needed to go in there and explore it, just like you needed to do for those four days. We did. And it's amazing because you, we know what impactful leadership looks like. We've experienced it with people. Mm-hmm . Our parents, our grandparents, our aunt, uncle, teacher, professor. Very rarely a boss. Sadly. Sadly. And, uh, and so we know what good leadership looks like. We just need to channel that experience into the way we show up for people in a way that's aligned with the person We wanna be the best version of ourselves. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (21:19)
I, I I, I, I could not agree more, you know, one of, one of the practices, I wanna drive, dive into something quite specific, but it, it's such a good example of what you're talking about, really putting it into action, um, revolves around really the power of gratitude because you, you became well known during your period at Campbell's, which was quite a turnaround for writing over 30,000 thank you notes. Um, I have a stack of thank you notes on my desk right now at the moment. And when I look every time I have the opportunity to write them, I think of you in that moment. Why did this recognition, these thank yous like this, become so important to you? And how has that practice developed?

Doug Conant: (22:01)
Well, this is all connected. Yeah. It is.

Marianne Lewis: (22:04)
If you connect, their themes are quite clear.

Doug Conant: (22:06)
Keep people first winning in the workplace. If you wanna win in the marketplace in an enduring way, and, and having an abundance mentality that talks about being tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people. Uh, what I have found in 50 years of doing this stuff is that organizations, I don't care if they're academic, uh, non-profit government or commercial enterprises, organizations get really good at critical thinking. Mm-hmm . We find what's wrong, and then we commit to fixing all the broken parts. And that becomes, uh, the mindset of the enterprise. If you're not careful, we look for what's wrong. I can find a busted number on a spreadsheet, forget the fact that 87 numbers look right. I'll find the broken one and say, what are we doing with this one? And, uh, and I've discovered that every organization I've been part of, I've been at Nabisco and Campbell, they were two of the most broken organizations in the, in the food industry space in, in the last century of the large food companies. And, uh, for different reasons, but even then, eight outta 10 things were being done. Right. But nobody was talking about 'em. And even Gallup, Gallup survey, they do the, they're the preeminent, uh, employee engagement survey people. Mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (23:37)
Headquartered in Washington dc They have their famous Q 12 survey and, uh, of the 12 questions that really give good indication of, uh, uh, of, uh, an employee who's fully engaged in the work. Okay. They boiled it down from hundreds of questions, thousands to hundreds to 12. One of the 12 questions is, I've received praise from my boss once this week. Just once, not a million times. Right. And all these people are doing at least one thing. Right. I guarantee it. And, uh, and I learned that after I started doing this, but I had this situation where we were gonna have to make some massive changes to the enterprise. And I realized, go back to Stephen Covey. His model helps explain this, that if you're gonna make, inevitably you have to make tough choices, but you, his model of the emotional bank account for an organization is mission critical here.

Doug Conant: (24:40)
Uh, you have to have so much equity with the, with the population that if you make a withdrawal and you make a tough decision, you're still in the black. Most organizations that are under pressure go way in the red, and then they try and rebuild it. Witness what's happening with the federal government employees right now. Mm-hmm . We're so far in the red. Yeah. It's gonna take decades to rebuild that infrastructure in a, in a, in a way that will serve the American people. That's another conversation. But I realize, well, what can I do? You know, because part of this is, you have, you can talk about this all you want, but you sort of have to live into it. You have to pull a Gandhi, you have to be the change you wanna see in the world. And I realized, well, I'm commuting two and a half hours to work from my home in New Jersey, and I got a two and a half hour drive home.

Doug Conant: (25:32)
I have somebody that drives me, thank God. But, uh, uh, on the way home, my assistant would pull all the information that had gone on in the company off our one portal. I'm old. So this was, we had one portal, and it all got printed out for me. I didn't, you know, and, uh, and I would read it all the way home, and I would pull things out of all the successes. I was overwhelmed at how much good stuff was going on. I knew all the bad stuff. And I, I, I pulled out 20 or 30 of these, and then on the way into work the next day, I would hand write thank you notes to 10 to 20, sometimes 30 people. Uh, and, uh, just saying thanks for the good work. I was very careful to reinforce the standards. Thanks for hitting your target.

Doug Conant: (26:23)
Mm-hmm . On time ahead of above budget, or thanks for, uh, helping us launch this program, uh, with this customer in a way that helps us put our best foot forward. It was all very focused on supporting the strategy and celebrating their contribution. And I would do 10 to 20 a day. And then when I retired, this is when this started to become known, not until I retired in 2010, 2011, uh, Forbes or Fortune, I don't know, which was interviewing me. And they said, we hear you write a lot of notes. And I said, I do. I 10 to 20 a day every day, six days a week for over a decade. And they said, well, how many is that? I don't know. And so we got out my desk calculator, my calculator in my drawer, and we did the math. And the math was that I had written at least 30,000 notes to, uh, to our, to our employees.

Doug Conant: (27:25)
I'd written other notes to, it wasn't, this is all about the entire value creation process. So I'd written notes to customers, I'd written out to suppliers mm-hmm . Consumers. I, I wrote a lot of notes, but I was in the car a lot so I could do it. And, uh, I got good at ri handwriting in the car. It's a bumpy ride sometimes . But I was very, I'm picturing you in the vaccine. I was very, I was very good at it as, but, and, uh, we figured out I'd written 30,000 notes, and we, we only had 25,000 employees. So everywhere in the world, people had a handwritten note for me, posted in their cubicle saying, thanks for the good work. Uh, you, you hit the target. You supported the strategy, and you're helping us move our company forward. And so, uh, and we were in, that's beautiful.

Doug Conant: (28:17)
We were in 38 countries. We were marketed on 125 countries. Wherever you would go, even an accounting center or a plant, they would have all these notes posted on the bulletin board. And it, what became interesting was, and this is why you have to model the behavior. All my, the people that worked directly for me started coming to me. All of our people are getting notes from you. Are you expecting us to write notes? And I said, no, I really didn't think that, but I didn't think this fully through. I do think we have to show up for them and celebrate what's working, but it has to be authentic. Going back to the Warren Venice Yeah. Absolutely. Importance. He placed on being authentic. I said, you need to find a way to authentically, in a way that works for you. Celebrate what's working while we're tearing apart what's not working.

Doug Conant: (29:07)
Right. Because we gotta tear apart what's not what, but 80% of this is working, and we gotta keep that going. And so all of a sudden, uh, some people who really didn't wanna write notes were wandering around. They managed by wandering around talking, they were intercepting people. And they became known for managing by wandering around some others who didn't wanna wander around, started having special time in their staff meetings and in their group meetings to celebrate contributions of significance. Uhhuh, they all found different ways, their way to do it. Mm-hmm . But I gotta believe if I hadn't shown up that way and hadn't started, these notes weren't popping up everywhere, it, it wouldn't have happened. Mm-hmm. I don't see any, in fact, I don't know of any other company that's a Fortune 500 company that was going that deep on the gratitude piece. And it worked. People, we, they were with us. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (30:05)
And you were doing hard things at the time,

Doug Conant: (30:07)
So, oh, well, you were building as, as we've talked before, I'm pretty sure we had to let go in the first three years. We let go 300 of our 350 top leaders, 300 out of 3 56 outta seven. Oh my goodness. Uh, we gave them three years to get it right. We said, here's what we wanna do, and here's how we're gonna do it. And we're gonna, we're gonna lead by honoring and respecting our workforce, and we're gonna audit this every year with Gallup survey. Mm-hmm . And the first year, I'm not even gonna look at the results. That's gonna be your baseline. The next two years we're gonna be looking at it, and you gotta be making progress at getting the employees engaged in the work mm-hmm . And, uh, and earning their respect. And if this isn't what you wanna do, you should choose to go somewhere else.

Doug Conant: (30:58)
And so, probably of the 300 we that left, probably 150 to 200 left on their own. Okay. Over the three years mm-hmm . But we let go a hundred to 150. Uh, we said, if we can find you a, a role where you're not a manager, but you're a individual contributor, that would be great. We'll try and find you a home and we'll help you find another job. But we gotta get this right. Going back to an earlier conversation that we just had, I had three years, my perspective mm-hmm . By year three, we had to be hitting stride. And that means you gotta start acting in year one. Yeah. But

Marianne Lewis: (31:36)
I love that you had that time horizon.

Doug Conant: (31:39)
Yeah. And so they had time to process it. Absolutely. Most of them didn't think I meant it, and most of them didn't think that I would last that long. So, uh, but ultimately, we promoted 150 people who had the eye of the tiger inside mm-hmm . And we had kept 50. So we ended up having to hire about 150 from outside, uh, all over the god's Green Earth. The, we were, we started recruiting the, the Young Turks, the people from the best consumer products companies who were stifled. They were stuck in bureaucracy. And they, they were ready to do more, but they couldn't break. They had to wait five years. Mm-hmm . And, uh, I was one of those at one point in time. And, uh, we found, you know, we got the right talent. That's right. And talent is all about character, competence and chemistry, your ability to work with teams. Uh, if we found the right people, we could change the world. And we did.

Marianne Lewis: (32:41)
You really did. Mm-hmm . It's remarkable. Um, Doug, let's, let's talk a little bit about, uh, the way you and I have been working together. I mean, we came to know each other through the Warren Benice Leadership Institute. You're, you're not an alum. Um, I don't think you've spent a lot of time in Cincinnati where you've probably spent some, but could you talk a little bit about what drew you to partner with the Warren Ben Leadership Institute? And, because I think it gives us a little bit more into, to your own values, um, but also your relationship with Warren.

Doug Conant: (33:12)
Yeah. Uh, there are two people that had a profound influence on my leader. Oh. There were a lot of people, but two people who were probably the top two that had a profound influence on my leadership life. And they were two men. There weren't really women role models then in the corporate world, certainly, and, uh, are on the fringe of the corporate world, even in academics, men, not too much talking about, I mean, women talking about leadership to, to men. Uh, so I was drawn to two people and, uh, Stephen Covey and Warren Benni. Mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (33:54)
Impressive both.

Doug Conant: (33:55)
Yeah. They were to me. And they still, to me, I, and I'm gonna talk briefly about Steven, but I'll get to Warren very quickly. Uh, I was, uh, actually still working at Parker Brothers. This is eighties. Uh, and my wife and I were on a tr taking a trip after the birth of our second son. We, he was probably two. We hadn't been away, just the two of us forever. And we were going to actually down to the world Monopoly Championships at the Breakers Hotel. I was still in charge of marketing. And, uh, and I bought a book. I would always buy a hardcover book at the airport and read it on my trip. That was something I did. Now you just have a Kindle or whatever, . But, uh, and I bought this book, and we were sitting in first class, which was like a real tree, and they were serving mimosas or whatever, uh, bloody Mary's.

Doug Conant: (34:55)
And my, my wife had one. And I, she said, well, aren't you gonna get one? I said, no, this book looks interesting. I'm gonna read it. I started reading it. I read it all the way down there. I totally ignored her. And, uh, maybe not totally, but I was not fully present with her. And this is our big time apart, uh, away. But I was so absorbed by this book. And then I, we got to the Breakers hotel, they took us up to our room, they opened the doors. It was facing the ocean, the waves crashing on the rocks, and it was fantastic. And, uh, we weren't used to this kind of treatment. This was like a second honeymoon, I guess. And, uh, and I sat down and, and in the living area, and started trying to finish my chapter before I did anything else.

Doug Conant: (35:48)
And she said, what is wrong with you, ? You know, uh, this is our first time. What's going on? And I said, I can't help, but this guy is brilliant. And she said, well, why do you think he's so brilliant? I said, because he thinks just like I do, . And what Stephen Covey had done, and what Warren did for me was they gave words to what I thought and how I felt. Mm-hmm . They helped me find what Bill George would call True North. Uh, they were talking my language, uh, was it that movie with Renee Zeiger, uh, and Tom Cruise, he's like an agent. Uh, and anyway, at one point he comes to win her heart again. And she says, you had me at Hello. And, uh, and Steven and Warren had me that way. Nobody else did. Nobody else like that. And then, so I was a mentee of Stevens for years.

Doug Conant: (36:49)
Steven m Mr. His son is one of my good friends. Uh, uh, his daughter who finished his last book, Cynthia, is the whole family's a good friend. They're good friends. But then I was getting into writing, uh, uh, I was still a CEO. And, uh, I, I was friends with Bill George, and he recommended I talk to Warren about, I said, I have a book in mind. I wanna get it published. And he said, you oughta reach out to Warren mm-hmm . And so I reached out to Warren. He was living in Santa Santa Monica at the time. I said, I'd, you know, I'd like to meet you. And man, we just hit it off. I, I flew out to Santa Monica. Uh, there was a hotel where we would have breakfast called the Viceroy Hotel, and we would just sit and talk. And he always had a graduate assistant with him, because at this stage, he was older.

Doug Conant: (37:44)
He needed a driver. So I only knew him the last maybe eight years of his life. But I felt just same way I felt about Steven. I felt like he was a kindred spirit. Mm-hmm . And he had seen so much more than I had. I could learn a lot from him. And, uh, so, uh, we became friends. I ended when he passed, I ended up writing a little bit about him that got pretty good traction in social media. And, uh, and my first book was published under his group in his portfolio books with, uh, with the Wiley Publishing Company. And, uh, he wrote a little forward to it. Uh, and we stayed good friends until the very end. Uh, and what was fun for me is I had read all his material before I met him. Uh, I, I, I'm a voracious student of leadership, and I had read, uh, you know, some of the mm-hmm.

Doug Conant: (38:48)
I had read virtually all of his work mm-hmm . And, and, and the, and the one that I liked the best, because I read it at the right time. It's not the one anybody talks about, which one. But I was at Nabisco at the time, dealing with KKR in a, in a leverage buyout situation. And the book he wrote that really hit me hardest was a book titled Leading ca Leading People's, like, herding cats. And I was herding a lot of cats, and I didn't have any idea how I was gonna get through this. And he got it. And so that was the one book that I, I, I remember them having the greatest impact on me, although I've read all of 'em, and I've done his workbook. And, uh, and this was before I met him. So by the time I met him, I was sort of starstruck.

Doug Conant: (39:39)
Mm-hmm . But then we just became good friends. That's so nice. And, uh, uh, uh, you know, it's a just a sh like a lot of things. It's a shame we couldn't have had more time together. It was, uh, I think we both appreciated, and I love working with you and getting to know his daughter, Kate Venni mm-hmm . I see so much of him in her. And, uh, so that's what drew me to the Warren Venice Leadership Institute. Uh, I think it's vital, because I think the answer is we need more people like Warren mm-hmm . And, uh, in today's world, as the world gets more stress, you know, we know all the research says it's a, what do they call it now? A Bonnie world? Bonnie, it, it used to be a VUCA world. Warren. Warren creates, in 1986, Warren and Bur Nani created the VUCA concept.

Doug Conant: (40:36)
Mm-hmm . Foal, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. Mm-hmm . That's Bonnie. But every generation seems to need a new word, so they can, you know, well, we have our own word. Sure. We do. And the current word that is, is Bonnie BANI, brittle, anxious, non-linear, incomprehensible. Ooh, I have not heard that. And, uh, it must be true. It's in Google , and, uh, no, it, and it, when you study it, it actually makes sense. But all the research says of those four, brittle, anxious, non-linear, incomprehensible, the thing that's most pronounced now is anxiety. Uhhuh . People are so anxious with the world outside, they're getting paralyzed. And, uh, this anxiety is being perpetrated in a way that is not focused on winning in the workplace. Mm-hmm . It's not focused on being kindhearted. And as that gets into short supply, I think the law of economics says, as it gets into short supply, it's gonna be more in demand, more valuable mm-hmm . And it's gonna become more valuable. And, you know, absolutely. My friends think I'm crazy, but I think we're, if you wanna skate to where the puck's going, skate to a place that's talking kind hearted. Mm-hmm . Tough on standards have to be Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (41:57)
Both. No, it's such a beautiful paradox. Yes.

Doug Conant: (41:59)
Both. But you, you, but you skate to where the puck's going, and it's going to be turning the corner. It already is. I think so towards kind hearted mm-hmm . And so that, that's where Warren and I sort of connected and it became personal. And one last thing, I I obviously, I can talk forever about this stuff, but the other thing I've learned is the more personal you make it, the more well anchored you become. Like, I knew Warren. Right. I knew what he meant and where he was coming from, because I talked to him about it. I can't do that with people over Zoom. Mm-hmm. I couldn't be leading teams over Zoom the same connection. Now, I might have to, I might have to. Right. But I would have to find a hybrid model. And I think everybody will to make it, if you wanna differentiate yourself, make it more personal, find a way to get to know people at a deeper level. Yeah. And the more intentional you are about that, whether it's writing, in my case, writing thank you notes, or, which was good in my era Yeah. Or whatever you choose to do, it's finding a way to make it more personal. And as I learned from Warren, the more I time I spent with him, the more personal it became, and the more well grounded I became. Mm-hmm.

Marianne Lewis: (43:21)
Mm-hmm .

Doug Conant: (43:22)
So,

Marianne Lewis: (43:24)
You know, it it, for, for our last question, I, I'd really love to hear what both worries and or encourages you about how companies build leaders today. I think it's that, that's the kind of insight we need, both for our students, but also for the rising leaders that we work with. What's working, what's not working with how companies are developing leaders?

Doug Conant: (43:47)
Well, I think,

Doug Conant: (43:53)
I think, I think they have to focus on creating high engagement cultures. Mm-hmm . It's not how a manager's developing a leader. Uh, that's part of it. But there's gotta be a culture that is tough-minded on standards and kindhearted with people that is living and breathing. And, and then the managers have to help the rising leaders develop, develop the skills to operate in that world. Uh, and they have to pull a Gandhi. They have to be the change that the enterprise is talk, talking about. And, uh, it's not about, and what happens is, we, we get into the short term and performance feedback, and you gotta work on your time management skills. So we're gonna send you to time management school, or, you know, your, your strategic thinking needs a little work. So we're gonna send you to a strategic thinking program. Uh, or, you know, you've gotta work on your empathy.

Doug Conant: (45:04)
You know, you're, you're, you gotta work on some of those people's skills. So we're gonna get you a coach. Uh, we start dealing with the symptoms of this issues, but not with the root cause, which is a culture that's not adequate for leading people in a Bonny world. Mm-hmm . And, uh, so I think we have to, and one other piece of that, the reason I wrote the blueprint book, um, so we're dealing with all the skills, but their foundations are so flimsy that the skills just don't get traction. They don't know who they are. They don't know what their convictions are. As soon as they get challenged, they run the other way. Uh, they're anxious. Uh, they, and so what I started doing when I was a CEO at Campbell, I started teaching high potential people. I had a two year program where we, we said, we're gonna help you figure out who you are, and then we're gonna help you connect that to our expectations.

Doug Conant: (46:12)
Yeah. And sadly, most people don't know who they are. . Yeah. Take some work and, oh, I didn't, uh, I mean, it's not, I didn't mm-hmm. I had to lose a job. And then I was blessed to be with a, a real gifted outplacement guy. But most people don't have that kind of blessing in the face of a crucible moment. But these people are facing crucible moments every day. Right. Right. And, uh, the culture needs to be helping them figure out, how are you gonna sort through this? How are you doing? Let's help you get settled, and then let's work on your time management skills. But the answer is not go to time management school. No. You're skipping this big step. No, and, and last thought, all the good leaders I know are really well anchored. They know who they are. They know, uh, what their purpose is in life.

Doug Conant: (47:07)
They know their values. I mean, I just, Jim Collins just publishing his, probably his last book. I just got it. Two. Oh, good. I was gonna say I haven't seen it. No, you wouldn't. It's not out yet. I'm gonna, uh, but he sent me a copy and, uh, and it's all about how important it is to be anchored yourself and develop your own leadership journey, which is what the blueprint was about, which he endorsed when I wrote that book and the Cynthia Covey book, that was it. It, it was, uh, living Life and Crescendo, why Your most important Work is always ahead of You. Uh, but you've gotta be anchored in this with who you are, so you know what your important work is. That's right. So you can be working on it. And, uh, so this this notion of, uh, my language, if you wanna get unstuck, if you wanna get out of this, you gotta go in. Mm-hmm . Is, is the essence of the challenge.

Marianne Lewis: (48:13)
Thank you, Doug. I mean, speaking of kindred spirits, I always so value being with you and appreciate

Doug Conant: (48:19)
All Oh, you say that to all

Marianne Lewis: (48:19)
The guys. I know

Doug Conant: (48:21)
Better come on Marianne. But I appreciate it.

Marianne Lewis: (48:25)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here.

Grant Freking: (48:26)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
I'm here with Jude Schramm. Thank you Jude, so much for joining us today. It's great to meet today. It's fantastic. Um, Jude, you, you're currently Chief Information Officer at Fifth Third Bank and one of our most valued strategic partners, um, both as at fifth third, and you as a liaison as well as on our, um, business advisory council and a Treasure Cincinnati community leader. I just, I call that out because I think it's just really important for all of our listeners, particularly our students, to understand the role model you are coming from here as a student. Mm-hmm . To CIO now. So I just, I wanna thank you for your inspiration. Oh, ahead of time. Great.

Jude Schramm: (01:08)
Yeah. No thanks. Appreciate that.

Marianne Lewis: (01:10)
You know, I do think yours is a remarkable journey from, you know, a uc student to CIO mm-hmm . But no one's career path is what you expect Right. At the time. It's, they're windy, they're surprising, uh, when you look back mm-hmm . Which is always a better viewpoint, you know, looking backwards and forwards. Were there some particular pivotal early experiences and if maybe even if you picked one that helped shape where you are now and how

Jude Schramm: (01:35)
Yeah, for sure. Um, first of all, thanks for letting me be here. I do appreciate getting a chance to come up and hang out on campus and spend time with you. So I do appreciate that. Um, you know, my career, to your point, everybody career is different. And one of the thing I will say is, you know, way back when I was here ages and ages ago, and the stone ages of really the technology timeframe, I didn't even know that I knew to hope to be in the, luckily the position I'm in today. I mean, I, I never really had a vision to become a CIO or a vision to become a business leader. Um, maybe even until I even got into the role of CIO I always just wanted to gravitate to solving problems, learning continuously about my profession and how to be good at what I do, which eventually went from being good at as a technologist to good as a leader.

Jude Schramm: (02:26)
Um, but there were a couple pivotal moments that I, um, you know, I I, I do cite sometimes when I'm talking to people about career. One in particular for me was, you know, I was probably a mid-level manager at General Electric when I was there and on my way to, to more senior leadership positions. And in a culture like that, a lot of times your success was looked at also, not just your professional, like how you show up, but there is a lot to the org hierarchy. Who do you lead? How big is your organization? Where do you fit inside that hierarchy? And probably two roles before my CIO job, um, is when the iPhone came out. Oh. And the gentleman who was leading the, uh, services division for, for the aviation business here had said, Hey, I'm gonna go spend $30 million just r and d to figure out what this thing can do.

Jude Schramm: (03:22)
'cause I think these are gonna be really big for business. And he told my boss at the time, I'd like to have somebody come lead this for me. And so we were talking about it at a staff meeting and I raised my hand and said, I, I wanna do it. And she said, no, you don't. This is a individual contributor. Go experiment, figure stuff out. It's not gonna help you get to your next level. I don't think you want to do that. And I had to literally argue back and forth with her for almost a week. I said, I don't care about those things. I just want to be a part of this thing. 'cause I think it's important. And so I did, I took a job with no direct reports, a job where I had no real responsibility other than to figure this thing out for the company.

Jude Schramm: (04:05)
Um, and I had a lot of people that were my peers who were like, why are you taking yourself off of the leadership track? And I'm like, I don't, like, I didn't have a good answer for them. Mm-hmm . But that thing led to my next two roles, um, that were leading kind of digital for the business. And then for the larger GE corporation trying to establish the digital business for General Electric, which ultimately was my role before I was CIO there at, at Aerospace. And so, like, the lesson from that for me was like, you can't get stuck in the hierarchy in a career path. You gotta be willing to go and put yourself in different positions and in different places that may not look normal to everybody. But I followed something that meant a lot to me. It was the continuing education of my belief and where technology was going, and it worked out pretty well for me. So that, that was a probably a big pivotal moment for me in my career making that decision. Oh. But

Marianne Lewis: (04:52)
I love that story, Jude, because I mean, it was, you know, you get these questions of why are you getting off the leadership track and it actually propelled you. I mean, you jumped upward on that track, but you don't know that when you're making that call. No.

Jude Schramm: (05:04)
And I didn't make it for that reason. I had no real, even at that point, I had no real aspiration to be like a CIO, if you will. I just wanna keep learning and, and, and growing and challenging. I think that allows me to have a skill to contribute to the company and to keep, I guess, justifying my right to just be at the company, period. Forget the level or the mm-hmm . Title.

Marianne Lewis: (05:21)
You know, I think it leads to that. That's a, a pilot type project. I've now known you long enough to know that you've led multiple big digital transformations. Yeah. Right. Thinking about full scale systems and others. Right? Now, I know you think all the time about generative AI every day, but man, how do you even start, Jude? I mean, you're at a Fortune 500 Yeah. Company leading a digital transformation. What do you begin

Jude Schramm: (05:47)
On something like that? You know, it's a good question, especially with ai. 'cause it is very different from, if you think about the generation of like the businesses on the internet and e-commerce. Yeah. Or you think about the move to cloud from traditional on premises, major enterprise systems, those all required a whole different kind of, not just skillset, but an understanding of traditional IT enterprise stuff. Mm-hmm . And they had to roll out and deploy in ways that it felt more like a traditional IT thing. AI, to your point, is very different because it's one of the first times a majorly disruptive technology is coming into the, the business and the normal personal lifestyles of people with really no forward requirement for a bunch of advanced technology migration to a new thing. It just is there. Right. And so, you know, for me that it is a bit of a different journey with AI than the others.

Jude Schramm: (06:43)
Because one of the things that I started doing three years ago was just spending a large amount of time understanding, like at its foundation how AI happens from a technology perspective. And we have a great leader at Fifth Third that we, we have, um, who's been here for, you know, it was it, he'd been here for a while, left and then came back to, to do this with me. And it's spending hours and hours and hours with him and just doing research and, and, and experimentation on my own personal time Okay. With all these technologies to learn it. Because I think you have to have some level of understanding of how it works before you can, thinking about how would you then start to apply it into a company or into the business, which is now where we are is like, how do we apply this and apply this at scale? Um, but it took a lot of personal time up front. That makes sense. Like I told my team, I was spending probably almost the same amount of time learning and experiment with AI as I was doing my day job for probably the better part of a year, you know, or so before we started to even put it into actual the people's hands at the company.

Marianne Lewis: (07:44)
I so appreciate the way you just explained that, because when I think of digital transformations, I think of the examples you gave prior, like moving to cloud or others. Yeah. You, you can almost picture a Gantt chart and a project management like, you know, kind of this, this flow. Yeah. It's this amorphous thing. Ai Yes. And it's here. And, and your level of experimentation, I don't know, it even brings me back to your example of the phone. Yeah, yeah. Right. The iPhone is, we don't even know what it could or should do

Jude Schramm: (08:11)
Yet. No. And, and, and it's changing so fast what we think it can do today. It's the first technology that there's been a cycle for me personally, where like, it's going so fast. The things that we want to do with it, by the time we actually get to the point being able to do something, the underlying capabilities have dramatically changed. And we find ourselves continuously pivoting. Our strategy adapt. Whereas like the overarching strategy hasn't changed. But the how is different six months ago from today is completely different with how we're looking to apply it.

Marianne Lewis: (08:41)
Much more ready, fire, aim. Yeah. Right.

Jude Schramm: (08:44)
And

Marianne Lewis: (08:45)
100% then adapt as you go. Yeah. Well, which makes me think about security mm-hmm . Because it's such an issue and everybody's talking about it. Yep. I, I wanna take it into a particular area. 'cause I, I know you well, I've so valued you as an advisor and you're a man of principle mm-hmm . I, I'd love to know how your own values and principles play into the way you think about cybersecurity. Yeah. Because especially as you're moving so fast. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (09:08)
That's a, that's a great question.

Marianne Lewis: (09:09)
You've gotta have a high level.

Jude Schramm: (09:10)
It is. And the, the way that I think about it is when, when we look at either the existing ways we're trying to protect customers right? Or protect our employees, um, AI or not, right? We really try to put that at the forefront of every decision we make when we're putting technology out into our environments for people to use. Right. And so, AI's no different. And for me it, it's gotta start with that foundational principle of like, I can get a lot of stuff out there, but if I do it ahead of knowing how we're gonna protect the people that are gonna use it mm-hmm . Then it's creating an unnecessary risk that people don't even know they're being exposed to. And so we do spend a lot of time, like when we are putting AI in, you know, we're probably by all measures with most other banks, we're doing pretty good.

Jude Schramm: (09:53)
We're probably deploying AI at the pace of the trillionaire banks and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm . But what a lot of people don't probably know is that we're one of the few banks that the first year while I was experimenting personally, me and our head of AI and some other people, what we were also building was our governance framework for how do you deploy simultaneously ai. Yeah. So to parallel, we had a policy written before we ever put one thing in the environment. We had, um, a framework for how we are trying to assess and evaluate ai. In fact, um, we have two patents that were awarded to us at the end of last year around generative ai. And both of them are really patents around the way we're protecting the AI from getting either jailbroken or compromised. And so we are, we are constantly thinking about how do we protect the customers? How do we protect the employees? Um, so that when we do put it out there, we already have a good sense of what that means. And even today, our cybersecurity teams are doing a ton of experimentation with how do we detect AI in the environment, especially bad AI that we don't know or don't want in there. And so we're, we're, we're doing a ton of investment in that relative to the overall IT spend on ai. It, it's a, it's a big piece of it. It

Marianne Lewis: (11:00)
Has to be. Yeah. I I I, I won't say the company, but I had a, a, a another, um, strategic partner here recently saying that they were hit about 7,000 times a day. Yeah. Does that sound like a crazy number to you? Does it

Jude Schramm: (11:12)
Sound about way? No, we get, we get hit tens of thousands of times a day with attempts to, to break in easily.

Marianne Lewis: (11:17)
Yeah. I don't think people quite realize when, when you say cybersecurity is that level of, of risk, it's nonstop. It's huge.

Jude Schramm: (11:23)
It's nonstop.

Marianne Lewis: (11:24)
And the fact that you were ahead of it and thinking so early is I think just something for us all to think about further. You know, you've, you've now, this is your second time as A-C-C-I-O. Yes. Right? You were, you were a ge uh, then this was pre GE Aerospace, but it was in the aerospace space.

Jude Schramm: (11:41)
It was aviation at the time. It was aviation as part of the bigger GE company pirate of them breaking it out.

Marianne Lewis: (11:46)
Is the role changing for you? Yeah. I mean, not just in the institutions being different, the organizations, but

Jude Schramm: (11:52)
Just Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, if you go way back to when I wasn't the CIO and I remember interacting with the first CIO, like at that kind of a senior level, um, there was definitely much more of a sense of your job is to run the IT department. Right? Okay. In in, what I mean by that is, I don't know that the CIO 20 years ago was sitting around the business leadership table. They reported into the CFO or to somebody else, run the infrastructure and Yeah. And they were responsible for running the infrastructure mm-hmm . Making sure that, you know, always jokingly say the ones and zeros and the spinning discs were always up and running and moving and working. You know, the, one of the great things about working at, at Aerospace when I was there, when in the, in the old form of the company was, it was about an era where the CIO was becoming a business leader as well.

Jude Schramm: (12:38)
And you were expected not just to know the technology, but know how it was really delivering value to the company, whether it be in the efficiency side of simplifying and automating internal processes to delivering and enabling revenue generation, which is, you know, I think there was a lot of articles over the last number of years about the CIO is a business leader in da, which is all great. I think, I think today even just, you know, if you think about the journey we're talking about with AI mm-hmm . I think that the CIO is those things, and also a throwback to some of the understanding of like, I'm expected to help the entire company understand how to make the best use of AI to make their jobs more effective, more efficient, whether again, it's to add more scale, to take more streamlining or to help contribute to revenue.

Jude Schramm: (13:25)
And it's a perfect blend of the two because, you know, if you, again, I don't know, I, I assume that you guys have wrote out like something like copilot here at mm-hmm . At uc, everybody can use it. Nobody really knows how it works. Right. Right. They know how to use it and they don't need to know how it works necessarily, but somebody does. And I think there's a big expectation, at least at Fifth Third, that I'm able to both be a understanding of the business side of, of our company and the technology side in a way that those two things are almost an explicit, explicitly tied Yeah. To value whether that value is on revenue or on expense mm-hmm . And so it's a big evolution to the point that, you know, I, because you we'll probably talk about this a lot, about like, what is the future of AI looking for jobs?

Jude Schramm: (14:13)
Mm-hmm . And dah, dah dah da da. Like, it makes me almost an HR person at that point too, because I get asked that question, what is gonna happen to jobs if AI comes in? And like, you can't really not, you can't really ask hr. They don't know. Like they don't know how the technology can or should disrupt the company. But it's my job to know that and figure that out and feed that back into the rest of the company to make it part of our strategy. So you start to take on different roles as a CIO now because of the way that the technology's changing the landscape.

Marianne Lewis: (14:43)
I appreciate the way you, you just described that, Jude, because I mean, I can think back in history of these periods where, say manufacturing went from making the widgets to being strategic, or HR went from just run the, the, the policies to being strategic. And Yeah. And I can absolutely see that with the information side, but it's also not just strategic to the CEO or the board, you're saying, I mean, it's the team mm-hmm . And helping all the team be Yeah. A multiplier effect.

Jude Schramm: (15:11)
That's right. That's right. I mean, you gotta enable them all, but to enable them all, you have to have a perspective and some level of, um, understanding of what they're trying to do as a leader and their function, right? Mm-hmm. And that's, that's important.

Marianne Lewis: (15:23)
It's changing fast though, and you're at the table, you're, you're key to the vision around the technology side, particularly in this case for ai. How, how do you stay abreast in with something changing that fast? Yeah. You personally, but also for the vision. So I feel like there's a learning element, but there's a Yep. An organizational element too. Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (15:43)
Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think, I think there's, there's a, there's a whole lot kind of in there. We could, we could probably even unpack. But some of it is, is back to good old human relationships. Like, um, in, in, in our environment, I sit on the same floor as all my peers. We, the head of legal, the head of hr, the head of risk, the head of, you know, da da da, the lines of business and that kind of stuff. And so we spend a lot of time together. Mm. And so I get a chance to understand their view on the rest of the company and what they're trying to drive. I know their priorities. We plan together, we do strategy together. Um, we spend time together. And so I, I, I get to be a part of the inner circle that's creating the environment for fifth Third.

Jude Schramm: (16:28)
Mm-hmm . And so what I then get to do is help them think through how my role and my function can help their goals. And to your point that very quickly is turning into AI is a way to help them do things. And so a lot of times it's, it's thinking through what are you trying to do and is there a way to do it differently than the way you're doing it? And can AI help? That's usually the way the conversation starts. And part of my job is to know enough to help, because what I don't wanna do is pretend like, yes. 'cause one of the things I I see a lot, and you probably do too, is AI's gonna take every problem, solve it. Mm-hmm . Like not true as you know. Um, but if you're not paying, if you're not day to day in it like I'm supposed to be and you're in one of these other, other leadership roles, you probably aren't sure when AI could or should help.

Jude Schramm: (17:14)
And if it can and at what pacing or timing. And that's part of my job is to help make that clear to my, my, my partners in the business. Like, AI can work great here and now because it's ready, as we talked earlier from a mm-hmm . Hardening and scaling. I can protect it, I can, I can do whatever. This is a great place where we could try it in your given area, um, or put it in in your area and have to able to go, it's not ready in yours because the risk is, is not there where the technology isn't mature, mature enough and that kind of stuff. And that's part of my, I think my value contribution right? Is, is making sure that we have those dialogues before they get too excited. 'cause invariably, a lot of people come to them and say, I was at this conference and I saw this.

Jude Schramm: (17:57)
I think they do, and it's gonna save our lives. Mm-hmm. And it's like, me, probably not. Right? And so it, it, it's helping to myth bust a lot of the energy that comes upward to them from their teams. But I think I've built the rapport with all my peers that like, they know, Hey, let me go talk to Jude before we get too excited about this thing. Yeah. So a lot of the company does that with my organization too. It's like, Hey, we see this thing, can it help? It's like, let's, let's bring it back to the governance process and let's have a real conversation about what you're trying to do.

Marianne Lewis: (18:22)
Oh, that's so helpful. Well, I, and it makes me think as well about some of the partnering that we've been doing with the Center for Business Analytics, which we've actually just rebranded as the Center for Business Analytics and ai, because we have been doing so much work. That's great. Um, particularly with strategic partners like Fifth Third, one of the things that, that I've learned with you through you in, in this partnership is the power of use cases. Yes. Because if not, AI is this amorphous thing. Yes. That you're right. People think is a cure all, and we need examples. And I think, and I'm, I'm, I'd love to hear you share a little bit about how the partnership with the center has been helpful for you. Because I certainly know one of the ways it's been very helpful for us is to see it in practice. Yep. Yep. And then to be part of the journey at Fifth Third, both from projects, but also in training. Yep. That's right. I think it's a virtuous cycle.

Jude Schramm: (19:16)
It is. And, and as you know, this is something that we spend some intentional time on. So I know, you know, for me, one of the great things about the partnership between us and the Center for Business Analytics and ai, I got that right, right. You did. Is, you know, and I remember this just, I think it was just last fall, we did a project together where teams were coming down to Fifth Third Center, uh, to work with our data engineering and analytics teams on a business problem. Mm-hmm . Right. And I think that does a lot of things for both of us, by the way. We do too. So one is, um, the forward look to that to me is always the experience that the students get to see how business works. The reverse benefit is we get a chance to interact with university students in a real world environment.

Jude Schramm: (20:00)
And that is always a good feeder for things like co-op programs and internships and post-grad, you know, career opportunities. Because we get to all create an ecosystem where we're collaborating over a problem and people get to almost experience each other and say like, is this a good fit both ways for people. Like, Hey, we really like this student man, we should talk to him about post career. Does he have plans or kind of things where the students can be like, wow, I really either had a good experience or didn't. And maybe this is for me, maybe it isn't. But I think the point is, um, we're bringing real world business problems to the university with an opportunity to say practical application. Mm-hmm . Can we work together to solve it? The university gets to say these are real world business problems that are happening that we can be preparing our students for. And it's just a win-win. And, and, you know, you and I are gonna talk, I think, you know, we have a business analytics meeting next week. We advisory

Marianne Lewis: (20:52)
Meeting, we do advisor

Jude Schramm: (20:52)
Board where I wanted to talk to you about like, putting that on steroids in the coming year where we can get a cycle that's maybe happening up on campus as opposed to students coming down. Oh, fantastic. Both ways. Like can we create a scalable version of that that's got maybe a half dozen problems we're trying to solve coming together through university to put a real ecosystem around this. Um, because I think it's important that as we, as we work together, we keep kind of scaling that up because the other thing it brings for us is it, it's also gives some of my teams a chance to go work in an environment where it feels more innovative. Mm-hmm . Like, not that banking's not exciting, don't get me wrong. It's exciting, but sometimes when you're solving problems and you're solving it in the context of your teams, you, you don't get that sense of excitement and innovation.

Jude Schramm: (21:37)
And I can't tell you how many times people working on the projects with the students, when I'm talking to them, they're like, God, it's like work. It's like being back in school again. Or it's like having this chance to kind of think outside the box because we're working with these students and it's a different dynamic for my teams. That feels refreshing. Right. And so it's a cultural boost to them as well. And so there's just all these benefits of this, the companies get in the university, I think gets as well that do too, starts to form the community between the university and the businesses that we all get and strive for and work hard at anyways. Right. And so what better way to do it than real life problem solving. Right.

Marianne Lewis: (22:12)
Agreed. And whether it's an 18, 19 or here in Lynn, I mean I Yep. I I do I think there's the power of connection, but also space. Yeah. And hundred. And how do, do we make the most of those a hundred? I love that idea, Jude. That's good. I mean, it's not gonna surprise you I think every day also about ai. Yeah. And I'm thinking about it from the education side. I know we're gonna talk about this at the advisory board, but, um, it's vital. We, we need to align our, the education side to the, the business demands. Yes. I would love to hear you share a little bit about what you think we should be doing to make sure that alignment is happening. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (22:47)
That's a great question. And because I do have a senior in high school coming here next year mm-hmm . I think about this a lot personally and then also professionally. Like what, what's

Marianne Lewis: (22:55)
That? What would you wanna see happening for him?

Jude Schramm: (22:57)
You know, I think, I think there's a couple things. One is I really hope that this myth that gets created sometimes how we don't need higher education anymore. 'cause people can self-serve in companies. It is just gets blown away somehow. 'cause I think it's completely wrong, um, for a number of reasons. It isn't just the education, which I think is fantastic. So context, when Isaac, my son and I were talking about degrees, he was even like, what do I do? What's AI gonna do? What do I even go into? And I said, you know, I said, when I think about it, um, you know, a finance degree is irreplaceable because it truly teaches you business. And I don't think I appreciated that till I got to fifth third because being in a bank, which is all about money and numbers and finances, um, you really have to, to understand the way that we make business decisions to help that drive anything else that you do. And so he's going to, he's, he's gotta accept it into the finance and he's gonna double that with business analytics.

Marianne Lewis: (23:56)
It's a great combination.

Jude Schramm: (23:57)
Right. And so I think those combinations are great for, to, as you said, because you kind of get the best of both worlds of what I think the future's gonna hold. When you go beyond that, when you ask about the education, I think beyond just the normal way that, that you see it as a great job preparing kids from a true classroom experience and from a co-op and and work experience. Mm-hmm . I think there's an element that I see in some of the, the, the, the, the early career folks that really will benefit in the future from things like really understanding. And I, I think I even talked about this, about structured problem, thinking about one of the things that I got when I was here, uh, was really learning how to solve problems. 'cause I think there's things AI is not gonna be able to, it's not gonna handle relationships. Wasn't

Marianne Lewis: (24:38)
An economics class or something you told me

Jude Schramm: (24:40)
About. It was, it was, it was actually a summer macroeconomic class that I had. It was like seven 30 in the,

Marianne Lewis: (24:45)
I love that you remember that summer? That's so good.

Jude Schramm: (24:47)
You never forget it. Right. . And so, and so, you know, that idea of really understanding how to problem solve mm-hmm . In, in a logical, structured way. Because the one thing I do worry about AI is like, I don't want it to start to get the belief that people don't need to learn how to think and problem solve. That's true. Like, it's gonna be great for a lot of things and maybe someday it'll replace us all. And I'm just a hopeful guy, but I hope not. And I don't, I don't believe it will. Um, I think humans are way more resilient than that. And I think we won't let it happen. Um, but I think being able to come out and know how to problem solve and do structured thinking to know how to interact with people, like, you know, I could go in my soapbox about where the social media economy has created so much isolation mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (25:31)
That I see it show up because we are a in-person culture. We don't do a lot of remote work. We have people in the office. 'cause I believe any company, it's cultural. It's definition of culture and how it actually, um, creates path for people to have career pathing needs people to interact mm-hmm . And I think, you know, whether it's the co-op program or just the way that you, we evolve the way that we, you know, have kids doing a lot of interaction to do, not just isolated problem solving, but problem solving in groups really is a big benefit. 'cause you come out of college and nine times outta 10, you're not solving problems by yourself. You're doing it in different settings with different people and trying to solve different problems that you're not an expert in. But it's the collective that matters. And I think that's what education is going to continue to evolve to, is how do we create more, uh, opportunities in the education system, in the university environment to mirror what that looks like out in the business world or should look like in the business world for, you know, a long time.

Jude Schramm: (26:29)
And how has AI become a part of solving this problems and part of those groups, right? Mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (26:33)
No, uh, very, very much so I, I appreciate hearing that, hearing that. And, and we're gonna have a great conversation in a couple weeks through that board meeting. I, so you said, you know, one, one of the concerns is, oh, you know, people are gonna be gone out of all of these processes. Yeah. I'll give you a different one that I hear too often and, and I know keeps people up at night, is that, uh, it's going to eliminate entry level positions. Yep. But boy, those are incredibly important positions for the latter. Totally agree. So I wonder how you think about that at fifth third about, I mean, maybe it's gonna change, or may we think about other ways to Yeah. To develop people for whatever is the appropriate realm. Yep.

Jude Schramm: (27:09)
Yep. I, um, I, I don't think that's gonna happen at scale mm-hmm . And so I think there's a nuance to this question that, that probably merits a little bit of like talking about, here's the way I wanna think about it. I think we are in the hype cycle phase of ai, right? Mm-hmm . And

Marianne Lewis: (27:26)
The.com bubble,

Jude Schramm: (27:28)
I can remember in the.com bubble, I can remember in whatever phase you wanna get at this technology is gonna take over and we're not gonna need people anymore. Mm-hmm . And what happens, some jobs get displaced, but there's always typically newer and more version, more of newer jobs that get created mm-hmm . And so I think, you know, maybe back to our previous question, the university will definitely be staying on top of how are jobs evolving and changing? What new careers are being created with ai? What careers are being disrupted? I don't think it's just about entry level, it's all the way through the, the, the companies. But I think in, in today's world, like in 2026, like really right now, in February, March of 26, we're just in the hype where everybody's saying that it's all gone. We're all gonna go, like you and I have been through this mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (28:15)
Right? There will be stability, there will be stabilization. Like I kind of said earlier, um, humans are really good at not at creating self extinction. Right. Last I checked. And so, you know, there is a lot of recognition that I know in conversations I'm at, not just in fifth Third, but at other places where I'm talking about ai, a lot of the recognition of like, I can't eliminate all these people. Like at the end of the day, I'll give you a really good example. My head of engineering and I were talking, 'cause he's like, Hey, a year from now, and he mentioned this in a, in a like, let's talk about this way, the way this is going. I could probably run all of engineering. I have a thousand engineers I can remember run all of engineering with five people, right. And we're going, and I go May maybe, and, and we both like, this is him and I coming to the same conclusion, which is, and when those five people retire, who's gonna re who's gonna replace them?

Jude Schramm: (29:05)
And we were both look and we're like, well, I guess we can't, we can't do that. Right? We don't wanna do that either, but we can't. And so then it's like, okay, so how do we come back, call, you know, everybody get back to normal? What is the right way to think about defining the organization so that we have people coming in at early career that have career pathing up to those roles and there's enough of them that you can have the traditional hierarchy of people having careers at every level that are meaningful mm-hmm . And they continue to drive a career path upward. And so we are in a phase of trying to understand like, what does the future look like? Because there's, and I mean mean this in a serious way. There's just talk about there's gonna be agents that are gonna be part of an org hierarchy at some point mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (29:47)
Right. Non-human engineers that are sitting in an org chart. Maybe not for real, but kind of when you think about it, right. But part of what I'm getting at, we're really trying to think about will there be disruption? Yes. Do I know where that will be? I don't. I also know there will be new opportunities for new job creation and new types of jobs. And it's kind of my job as the CIO back to some to help figure out what that's gonna look like. Right. Because I don't wanna sit here and say, yeah, there won't be this or there won't be. I, I don't know. But I will tell you that sitting here today, every company I talk to of any real size will tell you we don't want AI to eliminate people. We want AI to allow us to help people do more. It's about scale. As opo a scale of what we can do versus doing more with non-human. That's not anybody's current like mega plan, if you will.

Marianne Lewis: (30:38)
I'm glad you're hearing that too. Yeah. The other one I've, I, I so appreciated it in a, at a different meeting, someone said, your ultimate job needs to be teaching students how to learn faster. Yes. And that was a really good takeaway for me. That's great. Because I do think that's the power of co-op. It's it's is about the learning process Yep. But also being really intentional about it. And we have the power or value of experience and wisdom, whatever age, whatever you wanna call it, that we've seen cycles come and go. That's right. It doesn't mean we're gonna be complacent, it just means we have some confidence that we'll learn how to adapt. That's right. I think these younger students, we need to help them.

Jude Schramm: (31:15)
I agree a hundred percent. It, it's, it's gonna be, that part of it will be different, right. Because this, to your point, the speed with which it's changing is greater, faster, whatever word you wanna use mm-hmm . Than any cycle we've ever been through. That's right. But at the other side of that, it's something, I was talking to one of my AI product owners yesterday. There still has to be the trust factor that matters. And what I mean by that is one of the core tenets of our AI that we put out there is, uh, is what the industry kind of first is human in the loop. Meaning before anything we go from an AI agent to you as a customer for third, there's some human that's making a decision. Should you get that or not? Yeah. Right. Um, or at some point the customer will be the human in the loop and decide, do I want that or not?

Jude Schramm: (32:01)
But the reason why I bring that up is, is like there's gotta be humans involved because I don't think anybody's ready to turn over the way that a customer's moving money in my world or a way that we're making decision on should you get a loan by an AI agent with no human being a part of that decision. Right. That's, that's not a concept that anybody's ready for. And I think to get from here to being able to trust something like that happening is a long way away. Because you aren't gonna trust it as a customer. My regulators aren't gonna trust it. Who makes sure I'm doing my job to, to to protect you, right? Mm-hmm . And then I'm not gonna trust it because God forbid an an AI agent give you something or do something that I have no knowledge or control over because I just destroyed your trust in fifth Third.

Marianne Lewis: (32:46)
Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (32:46)
Those things are what's going to gate some of the pace of AI disruption. Mm-hmm . And the frenetic conversations about all this stuff is gonna have that filter on it for a long time.

Marianne Lewis: (32:59)
I, I completely agree. Well, and when I'm thinking about, I am gonna go back to the students of, of today, whether it's undergrad, grad, professional students, you, you already called out kind of some of the challenges from post pandemic and AI that have actually, interestingly, the more technological we become, the more we need human skills. Yeah. Yes. Human capabilities. Totally. I wonder if you have some parting thoughts for advice on those human capabilities that we need to be making sure we are also leaning into. Whew.

Jude Schramm: (33:32)
Man, that's a big one.

Marianne Lewis: (33:33)
That is a big one.

Jude Schramm: (33:35)
Um, geez, Louise.

Marianne Lewis: (33:39)
Well, I mean, well, well you're thinking about it. 'cause we can, I mean, I love your point about the teamwork and the collaboration communication. I, I get really worried about the level of isolation. I agree.

Jude Schramm: (33:49)
And that's why I'm like thinking, boy, I can take this a lot of different places. I know I'm with you. Um, do, do you, uh, read or follow anything around like, stuff that, like Professor Scott Galloway?

Marianne Lewis: (33:59)
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Jude Schramm: (34:01)
So like, that's where my brain goes because I'm listening to the podcast with and Simon Sinek right now. And that's a good one. It is a real good one. If you've, if it's this week's one from Simon Sinek is him and, uh, professor Galloway. Right. So, um, like that's where my brain goes. And it's like, but that's probably not, you know, the way to take it for this one. Um, you know, I do, I, I, uh, you know, I think, you know, back to your point, I, I think that the human element's gonna become more critical. And I think for that socialization has to be important to our students these days. Like at the end of the day, it's very easy to put yourself in isolation. It's not hard because I think we've even lost a little bit of the understanding what isolation means. 'cause I think sometimes people look at the filter through Instagram or TikTok or whatever is, I'm not isolated. I'm in this community that's digital and I may not be talking to you in person, but I'm not alone. And I fundamentally don't believe that that's true. Mm-hmm . Right. I think that as a human, we were built for connection. Right. We were built to have interaction physically face-to-face mm-hmm . Right. And I think in a business context that's equally as important and always has been. We just didn't always know how important it was because we didn't realize it wasn't there because it was there. Right. And of your point that we

Marianne Lewis: (35:19)
Took it for granted.

Jude Schramm: (35:19)
We took it for granted and the pandemic set us into a different model. Um, and then the social media, uh, craze has made it even more isolating and easier to stay isolated. And, you know, one of the things that, that I think is important, and we see this at Fifth Third where we tell people we want you here is that peop we, we just do better as a company when people are problem solving together. Mm-hmm . People are people, people work better, people perform better. I think the, the balance between work and home is easier to separate because we saw that early in the pandemic. I think you probably did too, where people were working from home. Like, I don't know how to stop working 'cause I have no physical, no boundaries. Yeah. My commute used to suck, but it gave me a chance to go from work to home.

Jude Schramm: (36:09)
Mm-hmm . And then a lot of people lost that. Yeah. And then in the, in the company, we saw people that worked remote, they didn't understand the culture. 'cause they'd be like, how do I get promoted to fifth third? I'm like, nobody even knows who you are. Right. So I had, I had one-on-one meetings with a lot of early career people mm-hmm . Um, in 20 21, 22, 23. Because that was the question. I I don't know how to make connection. Yes. And I don't know how to get promoted. And the reality was they told them, you, you can't do that from home office easily 'cause nobody knows who you are and you don't know how we work. And so as we got people back into the office, the biggest beneficiary of that and the group that in our own employee surveys we found was clamoring to come back in, was the early professional.

Jude Schramm: (36:54)
And they came back first and then the middle career people who probably were less incentivized 'cause they're like, eh, I don't care about career, I'm in mine. And we were like, no, no, no. You are the people, the generation that's helping these people know who fifth third is. Mm-hmm . And bringing them together gets us back into a cultural state of the company grows and the company's better because we're here. Mm-hmm . And I think that applies to everything that we do. It applies to coming to class, it applies to the projects that get done here. It applies to your co-ops and your interns. Like I hope that society has the breakaway back from social media isolation back to people going to Uncle Woody's and hanging. I'm sure they do. Don't get me wrong, . Sure. I'm sure they do. But I just think we have to keep reinforcing the benefits of society being together. Um, and we have to keep using that as a way to get people out and functioning and getting away from the isolationism. Right. Because that's gonna be really critical for a healthy society. Is technologists always gonna find a way to make us more isolated if we wanna allow it. Mm-hmm . And we gotta find a way to not do that. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (38:01)
To counter

Jude Schramm: (38:02)
It. I dunno if that answered your question with this.

Marianne Lewis: (38:03)
Oh, it very much did Jude. I, I, I so appreciate it. I wanna just say, you know, thank you again, thank you for your inspiration, your role model, uh, also as an advisor and a strategic partner with Fifth Third, I mean, we are learning together in a very fast moving world. We are about the power of technology and very much the power of human. Well thank you. Or humanity. Yeah. So thank you.

Jude Schramm: (38:24)
Well, and can I just say thanks Pat 'cause Sure. You know, as you know, you, the University of Cincinnati is our number one partner down at, at fifth Third, and we had a thing down in the, we did that was three earlier. Was that late last year? God talk. Yes.

Marianne Lewis: (38:35)
With all the alumni. Third,

Jude Schramm: (38:36)
We brought everybody back. There are hundreds of people down there. And, um, you know, this university's been instrumental and you, and honestly you personally, and then Lindner is a, is the business college, um, have been critical to the growth of Fifth Third and to the culture that's been created. So we love partnering with you guys and, and I look forward to continuing to do that. So thank you guys and thank you personally, Marianne.

Marianne Lewis: (38:56)
Absolutely. Jude. Yeah. Thank you. Onward. Absolutely. And go Bearcats. Yes,

Jude Schramm: (38:59)
Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (39:00)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.