Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking though leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. All right, it's my pleasure today to welcome Jeff Birding, president and co - CEO of FC Cincinnati. Jeff, thanks for being here. Hi,

Jeff Berding: (00:36)
Grant. Great to be here. Jeff,

Grant Freking: (00:38)
You grew up with nine siblings and became the first person in your immediate family to attend college. What did that opportunity mean to you and how has it helped you approach the way you go about leadership and your entire career?

Jeff Berding: (00:52)
Well, coming from a large family on the West Side, it was a lot of fun, uh, and a lot of good friends who I'm still friends with, uh, to this day. Uh, our family didn't have a lot of money, so I played sports year round, spent summers at Ryan Park and, um, playing sports, swimming, and, um, very competitive. Hmm. Um, I had coaches and teachers, um, who, um, saw something in me that, uh, I never would have seen in myself. And, um, at St. Catherine's, they, they pushed me on to St. X High School where the Jesuits and the Men for Others, uh, life orientation sort of took hold. Um, and of course when you go to St. X, that means that you're going to go to college because to go to St. X is a pathway to, to college. And, um, those teachers and coaches really had me thinking bigger about my life in a way that was, uh, comfortable.

Jeff Berding: (01:53)
It made sense to me. Um, it wasn't something that all of, uh, my siblings, uh, did. So being the first birding and one of, uh, there's two of us, I have a sister that graduated from UD. Mm-hmm. . So, um,

Jeff Berding: (02:10)
It, it was, it was my path. It wasn't necessarily the, the, the family expectation. Yeah. For the record, my dad did take business classes at UC. Oh, great. Uh, and is a, and is a, um, a loyal, uh, Bearcat, uh, supporter on, and season ticket holder in football, basketball, and baseball. Love to hear

Grant Freking: (02:30)
It.

Jeff Berding: (02:30)
Yeah. So it, uh, it's, it's not that my family didn't have college - uh-huh. . But of the 10 of us, there's two that have, uh, have graduated.

Grant Freking: (02:39)
Right. And how did that kind of experience, we know you did, you personally didn't go to UC, but how did that sort of experience kind of cultivate your interests, maybe draw you to certain leadership topics, maybe, you know, pull out a few mentors, things like that?

Jeff Berding: (02:53)
Sure. Sure. Well, let me just first of all say, uh, I'm a UC fan because I'm a Cincinnati fan. Right. And this institution represents this city on a national and global stage. So the fact that I was never a student here, I came very close to being a UC law student. And there's a real backstory on why I was not, uh, uh, I am not a graduate of UC Law School. But at the end of the day, I want to just share. And of course, FC Cincinnati doesn't exist without UC. But I went to Miami University, uh, and, um, for me it was the perfect size. Um, I was an RA my sophomore year. I paid my way through college. Um, I worked in the dining hall my freshman year. Um, and then my junior and senior year I was in student government, which paid.

Jeff Berding: (03:39)
Um, you know, I worked, uh, in other jobs on campus and uptown, uh, was in a fraternity. Um, and, and as I noted in student government. So for me, my leadership voice really began at Miami University. When I was at St. X, you know, I was on the football team, I was on the track team, um, was involved on, on, uh, uh, at the high school, but never a leader. But, um, my freshman year I was, uh, the representative of our residence hall to sort of into campus affairs and then I became the RA and then ran for student government. And I remember I had a, um, uh, I still have a, a close friend, Leslie, uh, Haxby, who when I got elected to student government, I'm a sophomore heading into junior year, and it was literally, I was really good campaigning, but then I'm like, "Oh my goodness, I have no idea what I'm doing." And she just said, "Relax.

Jeff Berding: (04:34)
We're gonna be, you're gonna do great. I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna be walking by your side the whole time and, uh, you know, you're, you're not gonna do this alone." And that, um, gave me confidence, uh, to not only do well, but a, a real leadership principle for me is, um, and like in sports, you, you never walk in life alone, you never walk through challenges in life alone. Good leaders have good people around them, good leaders mentor other people to help them because most leaders never got to their position of success in life by themselves. They had their own mentors, they had their own, uh, people that were helping them. And, uh, now I try to pay that forward in the same way Leslie did with me when I first got elected to student government.

Grant Freking: (05:20)
Right. I wanna touch on that point because it's a good one in a second, but first I wanna go to the foundings of FC Cincinnati. In 2015, you left a director level position with the Bengals and to build what would become FC Cincinnati. And I think if the story goes, you started it on your kitchen table. What gave you the confidence to take that leap, what ended up being a major league leap?

Jeff Berding: (05:41)
Yeah. Well, let me say I was blessed to work at the Bengals for 20 years and, um, I'm a huge Bengals fan. I grew up watching, of course, the two Super Bowl teams, uh, and the opportunity to work for the Bengals, um, after the initiative to build, um, what became Paul Brown Stadium, uh, and Great American Ballpark, uh, was approved. The Bengals, Mike Brown offered me an opportunity to come work for the team. And, um, while I was there, in addition to opening the stadium and selling out the stadium and all the suites and the club seats and whatnot, um, Mike was very interested in being supportive of me and let me, when I was recruited to run for city council to be elected to three terms of city council, and his words always stuck with me, "Jeff, go make the city better because when the city's better, that's good for Procter & Gamble.

Jeff Berding: (06:28)
It's good for Kroger. It's good for the Cincinnati Bengals. And so go make the city better." Um, when I left City Council, I, after six years, I joined, I was recruited to join the board of my Kids Youth Soccer Club. Two of my three kids are, were pretty good soccer players. And so they played on a club select team and, and I was, uh, on the board. And before too long, I became the president of the board, drove a merger with another club, uh, and really got to experience the youth soccer scene, get to know a lot of the clubs, a lot of the presence of the clubs. And my kids were rooting for Manchester United, um, as their team in the way that I rooted for the Cincinnati Reds as a kid. And I wanted my kids to have a hometown team to root for.

Jeff Berding: (07:14)
And I had done some research just from my professional sports background to see the rise of Major League Soccer, the global currency of soccer, and I just though it was important for Cincinnati's future and for future generations of soccer fans to have a team here. So I wrote the plan, uh, and sh- shopped it to some folks. Uh, and really the first person that really bought into my plan was then President Santa Ono. He saw it, because I need a place to play. Right. Yeah. And I mean, you can't have a sports team without a place to play your games. And, uh, I had been striking out, uh, in that effort, but Santa believed in the plan and, um, correct, uh, connected me to Mike Bone, the, then athletic director. Mm-hmm. . And we worked through, um, what it would take. And then this was all in 2014, and then in 2015, Carl Lindner called me and said, "I heard about your plan and, um, w- w - had me over for lunch and he talked about his interest in bringing soccer to Cincinnati and, uh, maybe we should join forces." And so to your answer to your question, once Carl and I were connected that we were doing this together and all of the research and all of the plan, um, and some of my experience, I had political experience, I had professional sports experience, I had civic experience, and I didn't have entrepreneurial experience, but I had Carl Lindner with me.

Jeff Berding: (08:35)
Mm. Like I, I, I just felt very confident in the plan and that this was gonna work. And our first game, uh, 14,000 people showed up to Nippert Stadium and we've never looked back. Yeah,

Grant Freking: (08:44)
I was there. It was a crazy atmosphere. The first goal was quite the, the Shauna -

Jeff Berding: (08:48)
Yes, it was. Shauna Coley scissor kick.

Grant Freking: (08:50)
Yeah. Incredible. And you, you just re - kind of touched on this point, but big ideas rarely stay the work of, of one person. And the idea really became reality once you, as you mentioned, Carl III became, um, interested in. And then not only that, but invested in it as did, uh, other members of the ownership group. What did you, did you learn anything about, uh, inviting others into your vision, um, during that process? And, um, I'm guessing you never wanted to really carry it alone, um, but like, did it even expand further, further your vision of like how much help you may need or other, you know, people you may need to kind of bring into the fold?

Jeff Berding: (09:26)
Well, l- let me offer, I always knew that I would need a team because I didn't have the resources. I had a great plan with no resources. Right, right. Um, when we were going into the United Soccer League, the plan was, um, six million dollars is what I thought I would need to raise. And, uh, yes, uh, people like George Joseph and Steve Hightower and Jack Wyant, um, and others came in with Carl. The Lindner family, of course, were the, the overwhelming piece of it, but we did have some other folks who were very important early on to help us get this thing off the ground. And, um, you know, some of this is you want strategic owners. And so, you know, then Scott Farmer comes in and, you know, the success of the Farmer family with Cintas, it gives credibility, but then you have your partners out there representing the team, selling the brand, um, encouraging companies to buy tickets for their employees to come to the games.

Jeff Berding: (10:28)
I mean, it was all a very integral part of the plan. And of course, we were enormously successful. I joke we were the New York Yankees of minor league soccer, uh, for three years. Um, when we, in tw - after the end of the first year, we were invited to participate in MLS expansion and won the expansion bid, um, then in the beginning of 2018, um, clearly we knew we were gonna need a much larger ownership group because it, it wasn't gonna be, you know, a few million dollars, it was gonna be hundreds of millions of dollars. We knew we were gonna have to be, uh, to build our own stadium. So at that point, we had to get, uh, very inclusive and we put a broad invitation out there throughout the Cincinnati business community and a little bit more broadly because we have some partners from Michigan and Kentucky.

Jeff Berding: (11:21)
Um, and of course Meg Whitman, um, was coming at the time from California. So at that point, w- we were selling our vision and what the future would hold for soccer in this country, and Major League Soccer is a league, and we were successful in raising the dollars, um, and building a very special brand that, without question, would not have happened without investors willing to, uh, give us their s- support, their confidence, their patience, because this is a long-term play. But it's also legacy making. Like these are the owners that brought professional soccer to Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (11:57)
Yeah. These, these, uh, owners and investors, um, get pitched all the time, I'm sure. What's some of the feedback that you got from them during these meetings about maybe some things they liked, some of their concerns, you know, things maybe their advisors had told them before the, before the meeting to kind of, "Hey, check in with Jeff on this." What was some of the feedback that you remember during those meetings?

Jeff Berding: (12:20)
Well, certainly, um, you know, I, I always joke if, if you're, um, interested in, um, making the biggest return on your dollars, you should buy Cintas or Great American Insurance stock, right? Like there's a lot of companies that are, that, whose, um, key people are a part of our ownership group where they would size up the investment, uh, uh, opportunity differently. Yeah,

Jeff Berding: (12:51)
Yeah. But we

Jeff Berding: (12:51)
Felt we had to be investment worthy, um, with the understanding that there was a patience required. Um, sports teams do appreciate in this country. Um, we don't have, uh, relegation in major league soccer. So it was only gonna go up. The question is how quickly it would go up. And certainly in our case, um, you know, we paid $150 million, um, e- expansion fee. We built our stadium and now we're worth nearly a billion dollars. So the appreciation has been there. But I think the most important thing to most of our investors, which the appreciation's enormously important, of course, um, but that we're building something that's special for Cincinnati, a brand that they can be proud of, that they represent, we represent them. Uh, we try to do things the right way. Um, I think our commitment to the community is noteworthy. I think people feel good about how we represent Cincinnati on a global stage and locally participate meaningfully in making this community better, to grow faster, um, uh, to represent, uh, belonging, that we're a club where people can find belonging.

Jeff Berding: (14:08)
And I think all of our investors, um, value that. I mean, you're gonna have the standard questions, of course, on liquidity, liquidity events, if people wanna sell. Um, I would say that those are sort of the straightforward legal and business questions that any investment in any team is gonna have. Sure. But I think for, for us, I think we're doing this in a way because we think it's important for Cincinnati. We think Cincinnati having a major league team and a global sport puts us on the map in a way that is helpful. Um, just the other day, uh, Saturday night I was in, uh, a suite with some folks from one of the biggest airlines, uh, in the world and, you know, they're talking about adding more routes and, you know, w- w - it's gonna happen, not because of FC Cincinnati, but I think we try to represent that this is a growing community and a community that business leaders can, from outside can look at us as we're on a, a, a growing trajectory and that that helps, um, sell this community.

Grant Freking: (15:12)
Right.

Grant Freking: (15:12)
You mentioned that community and the, the club's influence in it. And you were a driving force, as you mentioned, um, you mentioned TQL Stadium earlier, the new stadium that opened in 2021, right? And how do you, how do you and the club balance that growth with the responsibility of investing in the neighborhood where people live and work and mix their families and just hang out?

Jeff Berding: (15:33)
Well, um, you know, when we initially went through the MLS expansion process in December of 2017, we had to have a fully baked and legally committed stadium plan and we went. The, the plan that we can get over the finish line before we went up there in December was a, a, at a site in Oakley. And it's not that ne - that necessarily was the preferred site, but it was the site we could get over the finish line in time. I went up there and, uh, the commissioner said, "Well, where's the downtown site?" And he called it the Brooklyn of Cincinnati, and he was referring to Over the Rhine, but he was really alluding to the site that, where the current stadium is in the West End. And, um, he said, "That's where you need to build the stadium, and I'll give you four or five months to see if you can pull that off." And, um, we didn't have any, own any of the land, so we immediately had to start thinking about buying the land and get the site under control, uh, work with the Cincinnati Public School Board.

Jeff Berding: (16:29)
But the most meaningful thing was I went door to door in the neighborhood in the West End, uh, a neighborhood that had suffered serious neglect, disinvestment over a s - largely 75-year period, um, and, um, try to hear their stories and hear their hopes for the future. And, um, how could we be a catalyst for change? How could we build a better future for the neighborhood, for the people in the neighborhood together? Um, ultimately, that led to signing a community benefits agreement between FC Cincinnati and the West End Community Council, West End stakeholders. And, um, I'll always remember one of my mentors, David Mann at the time was the, uh, vice mayor, uh, former congressman, and David said, "You need to do the community benefits agreement, Jeff, because the folks in the West End have no reason to trust you." He says, "I trust you, but they've been betrayed so many times, Jeff, that this legally binding document gives you an opportunity to earn trust." And he goes, "I know you'll honor everything in it, and then you, that's how, that's how you start building." And so we signed it and we've exceeded everything that's in the agreement, uh, since we signed it.

Jeff Berding: (17:41)
Um, and that began a, a very close relationship with, uh, the residents of the West End. Many of them work in our stadium. People say, "Oh, your staff is so nice." And I said, "Well, because they're welcoming you to their neighborhood." Um, and, um, you know, we have the soccer program. We do all kinds of activities with Hayes Porter and Taft High School, two of the schools in the West End. When we did our vision for our mixed use development, we p - um, first did a vision, um, session with people from the West End where it was just dr - what does your dream for the neighborhood look like? Like literally look like p - cutting pictures out of news magazines and whatnot. Sure, yeah. Like what does it include? It's, you know, can we have a coffee shop in the neighborhood, maybe a place to buy, you know, some groceries?

Jeff Berding: (18:29)
Uh, can we have a place to, um, you know, listen to music, you know, some additional, uh, density in terms of apartments, um, that they wanted market rate. My point is we listened to them first, then the architects who sat through the session came back with some init- initial concepts, presented them to the neighborhood, the neighborhood reviewed, gave some tweaks, went back to the, came back again a second time with the architects and it's like, yes, this is what we want for the neighborhood. And that became our, uh, our mixed use plan, was literally from the residents. And just so you know, we were working with City Hall a little bit at the time and they wanted us to come in and present what we're thinking. And we said, no, we're not gonna do that until we're in the, uh, uh, we've, we've gone through and got the neighborhood on board.

Jeff Berding: (19:14)
Well, that commitment to listening and being a part of the neighborhood paid off because then we got a unanimous vote from the West End Community Council, got a unanimous vote at City Hall, we got an unanimous vote with the planning commission. All those things that you've seen have been very controversial in other neighborhoods. Um, for us, it wasn't because we did things the right way, we listened and we built dreams together for what the future of the neighborhood should be. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (19:39)
Does that dovetail. I think that might dovetail into my next question. You've mentioned your, your previous positions, five years on Cincinnati City Council, two decades with the Bengals, and as, as you noted, uh, I think all fair, you know, just so almost exactly 11 years with FC Cincinnati, a range of leadership positions along the way. What are the principles that remain constant for you crossing over these positions and, and working with stakeholders, working with people above you, that sort of thing?

Jeff Berding: (20:08)
Well, number one is you have to have a growth mindset. You have to be willing to be uncomfortable. Growth comes from being uncomfortable, rarely from being comfortable. And I think sometimes in our city, people get very comfortable. This is a wonderful place to live, but sometimes that feeling of pride and, and satisfaction leads to just being comfortable and accepting things as they are. And, you know, other cities were far below us in the 50s and the 60s and they've raced past us in terms of population and economic growth and building more housing and, um, attracting new companies, uh, here, attracting startups. Cities have passed us by because they were a- ambitiously, um, building with a growth mindset. And I think we were sort of just comfortable. And so I'm never wanting to be comfortable because the minute you're getting comfortable, um, uh, others are passing you by.

Jeff Berding: (21:10)
And I mean that as an individual, like I have to have a growth mindset and how I live my life, what am I reading, my relationships, spirituality, all these things. Am I growing as a person? Is our company growing? FC Cincinnati? Do we have a growth mindset? Do the people that work for us have a growth mindset? And does our city have a growth mindset? And our city has to have, and the leaders of the city, not just elected, but civic leaders, we have to be willing to be uncomfortable and push through this malaise of being satisfied. We're, we should not be satisfied. And with FC Cincinnati, I'm never satisfied. And sometimes maybe that makes people uncomfortable, but that's the whole point - uh-huh. Uh, is, is to grow. The other part is I believe in, uh, inclusivity. Uh, I believe that inviting people, creating a sense of belonging, um, are, are, are, are very i- important.

Jeff Berding: (22:02)
I think that we're stronger when we have a lot of people working together with different ideas, with different experiences, willing to challenge your thinking - Mm. To challenge my thinking. Um, I welcome that, um, because a- again, it, it helps me grow. Um, I have my lived experience, people, uh, with different lived experiences and different education are gonna come at things differently. And I think that ultimately, um, the, the, the whole is better than just the sum of each individual part and each individual person. And so, um, I think that we're better as a community. And one of the things I love about Cincinnati is we're, we, we're big enough to have all those amenities of a big city, uh, without all, of course, a lot of the big city hassles. But even more so, you're c - the opportunity for you to move this city forward, to, uh, help this city change, to help the city grow, people have their own big ideas.

Jeff Berding: (22:59)
This is a city where that you can get to influential stakeholders and make your big ideas happen.

Grant Freking: (23:05)
Yeah. And building, building off that answer, when you are leading an effort that crosses over business, civic leadership, pol - needs political support, you touched on communicating your vision to, to the neighborhood, the we - the West End Council. Um, how do you communicate that vision to, I guess, everyday people or even influential stakeholders when you're trying to communicate a vision that's gonna affect the entire ecosystem, so to speak?

Jeff Berding: (23:30)
Well, you obviously have to find the intersection of how you are connecting to the right stakeholders, the right decision makers to advance your vision and understanding and developing a plan to do that of, of course, is, is very important. I'm gonna call that at a, at a micro level. Mm-hmm. But there's also the, the macro part, the public piece, which is, do you have the, the people on board with your vision? Have you sold your vision in the West End? I literally went door to door. Like, I, you know, I was a city council member asking for votes, only I wasn't asking for their vote. I was listening to what, uh, what their concerns were so that I could address them. And there'd been a lot of misinformation working, people working against us by frankly being annor - dishonest, uh, uh, in a way that, um, was really just political and ideological.

Jeff Berding: (24:30)
But you do have to have the public on board at some point with your vision. So whether that's going in the news media, TV, radio, podcasts, um, uh, working with, uh, elected officials and other influencers who have their own public, um, uh, uh, stake out there in terms of, um, communicating to, uh, the broader population, those are all important aspects of a plan because at some point, you're gonna need to bring people on board with you, both those micro level, uh, influencers, decision makers, I should say - uh-huh. Elected officials. And that is easier if there is broader public support. And I think with FC Cincinnati, we've always taken the position that we're not gonna ask for any help that's, for FC Cincinnati, that's not good for Cincinnati. Mm. And also, if it's good for Cincinnati, FC Cincinnati can be counted on to try to be a part of the solution.

Jeff Berding: (25:31)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (25:32)
If someone wanted to shape the future of Cincinnati, but kind of didn't know to re - where to begin, given your experience, you also have the love for the city, you're fifth generation Cincinnatian, where would you tell them to start?

Jeff Berding: (25:44)
Well, s - first of all, get involved. Um, because through b- being involved as a civic leader, having a, a, a civic stakeholder, you're gonna make the relationships that are gonna allow, allow you to help advance your idea. We have so many institutions in this town. I mean, whether it's the Chamber of Commerce has tons of committees, including for younger professionals, um, whether it's things like the United Way. When I moved back to Cincinnati after college, I joined the United Way, was a volunteer for 10 years on the basic needs field of service, met a ton of people who are still friends and important to me to this day. Um, you know, the art museum has a young professionals, um, group there. Um, I'm on the art museum board. Um, you know, are there alumni chapters from your university here? Um, but certainly some of it is just starting to get involved because that involvement builds relationships.

Jeff Berding: (26:43)
And it also gives you a little bit of civic capital that people see you in a way where you're trying to help the community, to serve the community, to make this community better. And it gives you, I think, an easier pathway then to advance your idea. Obviously, there are people who you would need to sell your idea if it's a business idea. Obviously, we have centrifuge and other startup. There's obviously a huge startup community here on the University of Cincinnati's campus. So I would say there's the stakeholders are selling a business idea that are, I, I believe readily available in this town, which also brings connection to fundraising and financing and mentors to help you develop your plan and the like. But if it's an idea about making the city better, I, I, again, I personally think that there's every opportunity to get involved. Um, our elected officials are not hard to get ahold of.

Jeff Berding: (27:41)
You could literally make an appointment, I think nearly any city council member to show up and talk about your idea. You could show up at a city council meeting that you give you two minutes to sit in front of city council and the mayor and make your case for your idea. If it's a good idea, some council member's gonna walk down from the DS after, um, the public comments section and say, "Hey, let's talk more about it." So again, I think this city, that, those avenues to advance your idea is just much more accessible than in a lot of, a lot of cities in the US.

Grant Freking: (28:13)
Jeff Berding, appreciate you being here today. Thank you for being on Bearcats Mean Business. You're

Jeff Berding: (28:16)
Welcome, Grant. Thank you. It's been great to be here back where FC Cincinnati began 10 years ago. That's

Grant Freking: (28:22)
Right. Love to hear it. Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:01)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. It's my distinct pleasure today to welcome Ann Sojka, Assistant Professor of Marketing and the Academic Director for the Grau Center for Professional Selling, and welcome. Thanks for being here.

Ann Sojka: (00:41)
Thanks, Grant. So good to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:42)
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. Um, your career is really interesting to me. You've made your way through industry, through coaching, and now you're in higher education. I also kind of dabbled in that before you became full-time here. Mm-hmm. And this is all before you, before becoming academic director of the sales center, the Grau Center for Professional Selling about a year ago. How ha - how have those experiences shaped the way you prepare students for business and sales roles?

Ann Sojka: (01:09)
Yeah. One of my guiding principles, uh, in my approach as an educator is to remind students that no experience is wasted. This is something my parents told me over and over again as I was a student. Yeah. And I, as I talk to students every single day, either one-on-one or in a group, they have a lot of pressure to figure out what they wanna do and find their dream job. And so I use myself as an example to show that it doesn't m - your first job won't be your dream job, probably. Mm. And you have a responsibility to be able to take some transferable skills and, and strengths that you have developed in whatever job you have and be able to talk, tell a story about how those contribute to you being successful in the next job. So I think about myself. I got into sales education as a student.

Ann Sojka: (02:01)
How'd that happen? I walked by a banner as an undergraduate that said over 50% of business majors get their first job in sales. Like our students, I was highly motivated to get a job. So I though, if that's where the jobs are, I'm gonna join the sales organization. Even after joining a sales organization and taking a sales class, my internships that I did during college and my first two jobs out of college were in retail operations. They weren't in sales. So I didn't get my first sales job until I was 25. And yet I was able to talk about what I learned from those other jobs. And also, I learned what I didn't like. I really didn't like - Vital. Yeah, exactly. I, I, I'm analytical by nature. I like numbers. But what I don't like is staring at numbers all day on a spreadsheet.

Ann Sojka: (02:49)
I need to talk to people. So I combined all those strengths for my sales job. Um, and I really also, you know, I lean on my academic experience to make sure my students understand sales theory, marketing theory. That's the basis for what they then implement when we start practicing and, and doing sales role plays and things. So no experience wasted. And, um, even my sales experience gave me skills that helped me be a good teacher. Yeah. So everything comes together in the end and, and who knows where I'll go from here. Right.

Grant Freking: (03:23)
Let's dovetail into, back into your career, your earlier career. Was there a moment when you realized that selling wasn't just about convincing people, it was about understanding them, that forming that bond, that relationship?

Ann Sojka: (03:35)
Yeah. I was really fortunate as a student to learn a consultative selling approach, which is what, what we still teach right now in our, uh, confident selling courses. And that is that selling is about asking questions and the salespeople should talk about half as much as their, as their customers do. So they can understand the customer challenges and then deliver benefits in terms of values. Solve problems for their customers. So I knew that as a student. And then I can think of a specific, um, example and a time that I'm really proud of from my sales career when I was an enterprise outside ex - sales executive selling to big customers. Yeah. Um, my customer and I were selling, celebrating a big project that we got done. And he said, "Ann I really like working with you because you actually care about me. You don't just care about me, you know, as an employee and making sure my project gets done successfully, but you want me to be successful.

Ann Sojka: (04:29)
You wanna help me get promoted. And you're not just trying to, you know, take me out on the golf course or entertain me or push a product on me. You made it work for me. And that's why I like working for you." And, and that means a lot to me. And when I tell my students about that perspective, it excites them because they don't wanna be slimy and pushy. Yeah. Most of our students.

Grant Freking: (04:48)
Right. Yeah. And my follow up to that was gonna be does, do you feel like that clicks with students when you, when you, they hear that because they can maybe relate it to their own experiences and they're like, "Okay, sales is something different than maybe what I've read about or seen on, seen on TV, et cetera."

Ann Sojka: (05:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely. We have this representation in the media, I think a lot of times that sales is Wolf of Wall Street, sell me this pen. You know, people who are a little devious and very charismatic maybe, but don't have the best interests of their customers in mind. Yeah. And I, I remind students too, "Hey, you're a seller, but you are a customer too. How do you wanna be, how do you wanna interact with a salesperson? We wanna be treated like people and everybody has their own needs. Um, and it's a responsibility of, of a good salesperson in a complex business to business, long-term relationship sale to get to know the customer, how they make decisions, and then help them solve their problems. That is huge. And that draws, that's what draws so many students to our sales classes is this, um, this reframe that we have in our program.

Ann Sojka: (05:52)
That's why, you know, we have almost 400 students every semester enrolled in our sales classes. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (05:57)
Let's talk a little bit about that program.m. I wanna review some of the gui - the guiding principles for Lindner sales education. Mm-hmm. First one that comes up to mind for me is sellers aren't born, they're made. Why do you think some people still believe, and we've kind of touched around this a little bit, why do you think some people still believe that great salespeople are simply born with it, that it can't be learned?

Ann Sojka: (06:17)
I, I think there are two reasons. The first, like I mentioned, the media. Yeah. We see representations of salespeople as slimy, pushy, extroverts, charismatic, and, and that's what we see in the media. The second is, I think it's a lack of exposure in real life to professional selling. So I'll speak to myself, for myself as a student. Yeah. I didn't have anybody in my family who was in sales, especially not like B2B complex selling. Right, right. So I think our students, unless they have a family member who's in sales, they don't really know what sales is about. So that's, that's what we are here to do as educators is to expand our students' understanding about what skills are required, um, for a specific job. And in our program, it's wonderful. We have, um, so many corporate partners who want to interact with our students. They want to hire our students.

Ann Sojka: (07:12)
And they come to our classrooms and they talk to students about what's a day in the life. What are the, the exciting parts about sales? 'Cause it's really fun, it's lucrative. Um, you're not sitting at a desk usually eights to five. You have to entertain customers. Super fun. Make a lot of money. We like that. And it's challenging too. Yeah. There, there are lots of challenges. And so our students get exposure across different industries, across different sales roles. Not everybody wants to be a hunter sales role. I personally love cold calling, but I don't want to be a hunter. I'm a vegetarian. So part of it is a, it's, it's the reframing the, the verbiage that's used. Yeah. And showing our students a lot of different types of people can be successful in sales, not the stereotype that is presented in the media.

Grant Freking: (08:01)
Right. No, I, I, no, I love that. Let's go, let's go to another pillar. Mm-hmm. Sales skills are life skills is my favorite one. Mm-hmm. What's an example of a sales skill that every student, whether they're going into finance, accounting, entrepreneurship, fashion, business - uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Should develop?

Ann Sojka: (08:19)
There's so many. I, I, I can. But, but I wanna give one specific one that I think really helps. Yeah. And I, in my classes, to relate to students because we, our, our, our, our s - program is inclusive to any student in any major in Lindner, which makes our, our conversations really robust and interesting in our classrooms. Yeah. And I recognize that not everybody's gonna go into professional sales, formal sales. But I like to compare sales to interpersonal relationships, you know, dating, family relationships. And so I think one skill every student learns in a sales course is how to adapt to your listener or your audience. Being adaptable. So we teach, um, adaptive selling, which helps students identify based on conversations and doing research with their customers, how those people make decisions.

Ann Sojka: (09:12)
I am an expressive. You may notice I use my hands a lot. I, my face is very expressive. I lean in. My voice gets really loud. And I can make decisions really quickly. I'm kind of impulsive. But most of my customers when I was in tech sales were not like me. Yeah. You know? They wanted data points. They didn't tr - just trust a salesperson because she was friendly and nice. They needed to take time, um, and run the data on their own. And they might take longer to make decisions. So as a good seller, uh, and a good person in a relationship, understanding how the other person p - receives information and makes decisions smooths out that, the decision making process. Um, and it really, I always say marketing and sales as a function of marketing, it makes you more empathetic because this is, this is a, um, throwback to when I was a student.

Ann Sojka: (10:09)
Mm. My professor, my sales professor, Dick Canada, always said, "We, sellers follow the platinum rule. Not the golden rule. Don't treat pe - don't treat people how you wanna be treated. Treat people how they want to be treated." And so that's a skill that our students learn in our sales classes. Give people information the way they want to receive it.

Grant Freking: (10:29)
How do the students, what's the feedback from students when they either, either maybe don't understand how they can do that or when they finally do pick it up and like the light bulb kind of, the proverbial light bulb sort of clicks on for that, what's the feedback from them on that?

Ann Sojka: (10:44)
Well, we start with having them figure out what type they are. Okay. Because everybody loves to know more about themselves. Yeah. So we have students take a quiz. Okay, w- what are you? And then I have the students talk to one another. Okay, let, when, when you are gonna buy, make a big purchasing decision, like where to rent an apartment or buy a car. And we go group by group. And they're usually, there are a lot of expressives in the group, people like me, but there are also a lot of people who, um, amiables, those people like, like to build a consensus. So we, we always have at least one person represented from the four, the four types of people. And it is fun. You see people's eyes light up and I go, "Do you know anybody else like this? It's, that is not like you." And they go, "Oh, that's my dad." Or, "Yep, that's my sister."

Grant Freking: (11:31)
Comes to them immediately, yeah.

Ann Sojka: (11:31)
It, it really does. And, and we give characteristics and examples. And so then right away, students, I get the feedback of, you know, I never thought to, to talk to my family member this way, and it made all the difference. Made it so much easier. And I also give, give concrete examples. Like I talk about a family vacation. Most people can relate to that, planning family vacation. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (11:55)
Or surviving it. But

Ann Sojka: (11:56)
Yeah, living through it. Uh, so how, how does each person in your family, h - what's their role and how, how do they make a decision? And so students, they like seeing the application, which is why sales and, you know, marketing is a function of, or sales as a function of marketing - uh-huh. Is fun to teach because it is so cross-functional. It, it applies in every area of our students' lives.

Grant Freking: (12:19)
Yeah. And we've, we've talked about this last thing I wanna touch on a little bit already. Um, sales as a problem solving, helping profession. Yeah. What are some of like, what are some of the clear or concrete examples that you provide to your students that really click with them, whether it's from like your own experience or maybe you adapt what you're telling to, if you're talking to an individual student who maybe is in your sales class, but is maybe if you're like trying to go into like finance. How do you - uh-huh. What are some of like the clear adaptive examples you give to them?

Ann Sojka: (12:45)
Well, salespeople change. They, they act in different ways throughout a sales cycle. So I talked to that about, to, to students about that. Mm. But it really starts, and I, I make the analogy of salespeople like a doctor. A doctor wouldn't give you a prescription without knowing what your symptoms are, without asking some questions about how long these have, you've been experiencing them and what do you wanna feel like? What's your outcome? So the same thing is true in sales. We need to ask questions, good questions, and make sure that these, that whatever solution we're providing is gonna add value to our customers. And that's the problem solving mindset. Great news for us and Lindner is our students are oriented toward problem solving. Yep. So that comes really naturally to them. And I think it excites a lot of students who think sales, again, is just about being persuasive.

Ann Sojka: (13:37)
It's really not. Yeah. You only maintain a long-term relationship with future opportunities to sell if you take care of your customers by helping them and problem solving for them. Yeah. Um, and you get to make a lot of money too, right? Like, so if you pro - solve your customer's problems, you get commission. And then you have future opportunities to continue to grow the business with that customer.

Grant Freking: (14:00)
Yeah, just keep maintaining and expanding that relationship. Exactly. Yeah. Well, the Grau Center has earned national recognition for producing, uh, outstanding sales talent. What experiences, let's talk specifics, do students have with the center that they simply cannot get in a traditional classroom?

Ann Sojka: (14:18)
This is one of the other things I love about sales. You can't learn it in a book. Right. Sales is learned by doing. And so we have a couple different ways that our students get good experience. We have student organizations that are co-curricular. Um, they, they're inclusive to everybody. So we have the sales leadership club. Um, we have a women in sales club and medical sales club. So these are for students who have an interest in sales and it allows them to network with each other. Really important. And we also have our partners who come. Um, people in the field who've done sales. So students can get an idea of different types of sales roles. That's really important. And then they can get the help in their resumes. Um, networking in a more organic fashion. Also, we have state-of-the-art sales labs. We're really fortunate. So, um, these are either single use rooms, one-on-one, or we have a couple of larger conference rooms that every single one of our 400 students enrolled in a sales class each, each semester, use to conduct a sales simulation.

Ann Sojka: (15:23)
So they practice all semester long, and we have corporate partners who act as a buyer, and students do a sales role play. Those are recorded, um, so the students can watch back and iterate. And a lot of the times, the tweaks are little. It might be things like how to have more confident body language or reduce filler words. But it gives students instant feedback. And then those are local, but on a national scale, we have a varsity sales team, which I'm really proud of this team. Um, and these students are typically around 25 to 35 students each year, um, who try out. And then specific students travel nationally to about six to eight competitions per semester where they, once again, compete in sales simulations with other students from top sales universities. And our students are known for excelling in these, um, in these competitions. Yeah.

Ann Sojka: (16:21)
In fact, we have students who, you know, get in, earn the top five positions out of hundreds of students. So it's good for our program. People recognize that the Grau Center for Professional Selling creates really strong sellers. Yeah. And for our students, they've been known to get job offers on the spot because it's a different way to show off skills than say like, uh, applying for a job online with your resume says, "I can do a sales role play." No, these shoo - these students show it in action. They demonstrate their competence. Uh, and so students walk away from, from being on those varsity sales team competitions, one with a lot of confidence, because they've gotten a lot of repetitions. They get great feedback. And two, more exposure to partners for job opportunities.

Grant Freking: (17:08)
Right. And I, I wanna circle back to the sales app re quick. Mm-hmm. And we're of course thankful to Jim Grau and all the support and other partners I've given to make that a reality. How has the lab changed, um, the way students practice and build confidence before they enter the workforce? Maybe beyond even sort of the one-on-one recordings or, um, and maybe even, uh, as a, as a follow-up to my question that which I haven't finished asking yet. Um, how do you break through stu - to students who may be intimidated by, by the sales lab too and kind of like coach them into like how this could be beneficial to them?

Ann Sojka: (17:41)
Mm-hmm. Those are my favorite experiences with students. Okay. Because back to our, our discussion about a misperceptions about sales, I have a lot of students who I think have a lot of potential, but they come to me and say, "I'm scared of public speaking. I don't think I could be in sales." I say, "Sales is not public speaking. It's one-on-one." Yeah. You know, so introverts tend to be actually really good in one-on-one conversations - Okay. Because they pause and listen. I'll speak for myself as an extrovert. I'm usually waiting for my turn to talk and then I talk and go, "Huh, I said that." You know, I don't really. I have to, I have to be, um, particular to try to slow down and think before I speak. So it's common for students to be really intimidated and fearful. What we do prior leading up to the final sales role play, which is in lieu of a, a, an exam.

Ann Sojka: (18:31)
Mm-hmm. We teach students a couple of skills to develop resilience. And this is where students, they, they learn these strategies at the beginning of the semester, and they have to write papers throughout the semester as challenges or disappointments or failures come up and report back on which resilience strategy they used and how it worked. So we're getting students right away to get comfortable with failing and bouncing back quickly. So we're, we're leading up to the sales role play. Mm. They already have some confidence under their belt that, you know, things have gone sideways already in the semester, and I know that I'm gonna live through it. Um, the fact is, the students, uh, that are most fearful a lot of times, they, they prepare the most. So a lot of times, almost always, students are shocked by how well they do. Uh, and we have our partners who act as buyers and always we get.

Ann Sojka: (19:27)
I, I'm so proud of the feedback we get because even the buyers say, "I can't believe these students can do this." You know, it is intimidating. Yeah. It is intimidating.

Grant Freking: (19:37)
I'm sure I get intimidated

Ann Sojka: (19:38)
Under that. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and yet students learn, "I did it." Whether they wanna go into sales or not, maybe they face their biggest fear and they overcame it. And that is beyond anything that I could hope for making an impact on students.

Grant Freking: (19:52)
Yeah. And they gained, as we say, a transferable skill.

Ann Sojka: (19:54)
Exactly. Yep.

Grant Freking: (19:55)
Um, well, we can't talk about anything in academia these, these days without talking about AI. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about how AI is changing, um, sales education. What parts of selling are becoming more automated in your experience and, and your research? And what human skills are becoming even more valuable?

Ann Sojka: (20:14)
Mm-hmm. Good news for sales educators. AI is taking away a lot of the operational tasks that salespeople don't wanna do anyway. Mm-hmm. They're not really that good at, maybe. So things like, um, coming up with lists for leads. Mm-hmm. That's a great tool for AI to do. They can easily find contacts for, for cold calling. Doing preparation and research ahead of a sales call. You know, still need to fact check it, but that, that's a great use for AI. Even transcribing conversations, super helpful as a seller, so you can be more present. You don't have to worry about taking notes. Let the AI do that for you. Mm-hmm. And building proposals, you know, starting to build proposals, those are great uses of AI, and they help sellers spend more time on what's more important, which is building relationships, having that adaptability to customers, that emotional intelligence to understand how customers are receiving information, what their challenges are.

Ann Sojka: (21:14)
Right. Um, and then delivering value in the terms of benefits. So solving a problem, um, with a specific tool - Yeah. Based on the customer's needs. Right. Those just get more important.

Grant Freking: (21:27)
Yeah. Let's wrap with. I'm gonna ask you for two different sales pitches.

Ann Sojka: (21:30)
Okay.

Grant Freking: (21:31)
One for students, how they can get involved, and maybe more importantly, why they should get involved. Yeah. And then for partners, um, not making it too much of a, of a, you know, a sales pitch, I guess, about what are the benefits and what are the, some of the previous experiences you've had with partners and the, um, positives and the overall good vibes they can, they can get out of that.

Ann Sojka: (21:52)
Yeah. For students, I would highly encourage students to take at least marketing 3000, confident selling. There are no prerequisites. And a lot of students love this class. First of all, for the format, there's usually one exam. The rest is all papers and it's all experiential learning and doing a sales role play. Also, if you wanna get a job, take a sales course. Uh, it gives you access to the sales expo, which we usually have almost 50 partners who want to come - Yeah, it's always.

Grant Freking: (22:22)
Hierarchies. It's always bumping. Yeah. It

Ann Sojka: (22:24)
Is. It is. And these students, they practice the skills required to ha - to feel really confident when they go up to recruiters. You know, how to deliver an elevator introduction to introduce yourself. Yep. How to start a conversation with somebody. Even if you, you don't wanna go into sales, do you wanna get, go on a date ever? Take a sales class. Um, the other thing is, w - every, all the sales skills that our students learn help them prepare for interviews too. So career-oriented students should take a sales course. They're, they're definitely gonna build confidence, confidence and skills. And they can prove it by saying, "I've done a sales role play." Not just saying, "I know, I read a book about it." Right. Exactly. So that's one reason for students. For partners, our partners love working with our students because they're highly motivated. You know, our students, they're really excited about selling.

Ann Sojka: (23:17)
They, um, most of the time have work experience already or, and they're really involved in student organizations. So what sales recruiters look for are people who are self-starters, who, uh, like to be active, who have resilient skills, and we teach those in our classes. The other thing that our recruiters and our partners really love about our students is, again, they didn't just read about sales in a book. They've all done a sales role play. So they know a sales process, and they also know, you know, some of the transferable skills, like how to identify what type of customer you're dealing with, and how to develop really good questions so that you can solve customers' problems.

Grant Freking: (24:01)
Yeah. Well, Ann, thank you for being here. This is great content. All about Lindner's sales education, Grau Center for Professional Selling. Really excited to see what the new academic year brings with all the work you guys are doing. So again, thanks for being

Ann Sojka: (24:14)
Here. Thanks, Grant. It's been great talking to you.

Grant Freking: (24:17)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Leigh, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you.

Leigh Fox: (00:34)
Yeah, no, thank you. It's always a pleasure. Uh,

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
There, there are many things for us to explore today, but, you know, one of them is, is to dig a little bit into your personal story because, uh, I love your inspiration and I want others to benefit from it. And in particular, if we could, I, I'd love to talk about your experience as a first generation college student. I mean, you and your sisters were all first gen. Um, I'm increasingly just taken and I learned so much from the first generation students here. We've, we've doubled multiple years now. Yeah. The number of first gen. Um, but when you look back, what, what was that experience like and, and more maybe importantly, what lessons do you still carry from that time in your life navigating college as a first generation student?

Leigh Fox: (01:21)
Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I, you know, I'm, um, it was a complete unknown, you know, I think. Yeah. You, you go into it, especially with our background, like you go into it pretty blind. Like I didn't have a ton of help - uh-huh. . And guidance on, you know, what paths to take. You know, my mom was working full-time. You know, she was pretty, um, adamant that I go to college, right? So she was, for, for, for myself and my sister, she was, you know, I, I honestly, I always joke, like, I didn't know there was another option, right? Like it was like she talked about like, you're going to college, right? You know, and, and so I really didn't think there was, I thought that was the path and you just figured out - Right. The path, right? But figuring out the path was different.

Leigh Fox: (02:03)
Um, you know, I, like I said, I, I, I didn't have a lot of guidance. I knew at the time I liked science a lot. Mm-hmm. . And so I thouht, well, I'll, I'll go into science. And I started in veterinary medicine and realized, you know, I, I got a, um, I got a summer job at a vet and realized, you know, vets, world class vets don't cry every time. They have to put an animal to sLeighp. Oh, stop.

Leigh Fox: (02:27)
. And I literally cried every time. And, and, and even the vet that I was working for, he's a very, very nice gentleman. He was like, "Maybe this isn't the path for you." Right? Um, so, you know, I, I kind of, I, I went around the, the science route quite a bit. Um, ended up in geology, uh, honestly because I really liked, I like chemistry, but I, I always looked at chemistry in geology as sort of the natural essence of chemistry. Like it's, you know, I used to call it God's chemistry, right? Like this is how God does it. Yeah. Right. Chemistry is kind of man's imitation trying to figure out what God does naturally in the, in, in the world. And so I looked, I looked at that as, you know, like something I was just very interested in. But, you know, uh, it was, it was difficult for me.

Leigh Fox: (03:10)
Um, you know, I, I worked multiple jobs through college. I always had a job or two, uh, through college. Um, I, when I started my, you know, my college career, I had, I was working 40 hours a week and going to college full-time. And so, and, and again, you, you, you don't, as a young kid, you, you know, especially for, for me at least, I didn't realize - uh-huh. . What I was doing, right? I was just doing - You were just doing it, right? Yeah. And it was, it was one of my professors who, um, grabbed me because I was constantly falling asleep in her class. And she was like, "You, what's going on?" And I, and I, I apologize. I said, "I, I, I show up at work at 6:00 in the morning. I work until X. I then drive to, to class. I sit in class and I have to go to work after this." And she said, you know, she was like, "How, how many hours do you work?" And I said, "I work 40 hours a week." She's like, "You realize you're working two full-time jobs, basically, between college and..." And I, and I hadn't thought of it that way, you know?

Leigh Fox: (04:07)
So, but, you know, it's the, the, the sort of main thing I took from that, it's, you know, it's the work, right? The work ethic. And it's just put your head down and do it, right? I, I, and this is - Amazing what you can get done. Yeah. And, and this has happened a lot in my career. Yeah. I joke, you know, there's so many times in my career where I've, I've been given opportunities that I'm not even sure that I, like, looking back with experience that I would have said yes, like, you know, you, but it's this, like, naivety of, like, I just wanna, I just wanna do, right? And I'm gonna say yes, and I'm gonna figure it out. I, I sort of learned that with college. And college was a struggle for me. Um, you know, I went to public high school. I wasn't a great public high school student.

Leigh Fox: (04:42)
I'll, I'll be really honest. I was a, you know, b- between my parents being divorced and just being, you know, in that kind of environment. I was an angry kid. Yeah. I was, you know, I was very intelligent. I, I realized that after the fact. Mm-hmm. . But, you know, when I got to college, I had to teach myself how to study. I had to teach myself. I, like, I had to do all this stuff by myself. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you learn this, this independence and this work ethic that you carry, you know, kind of throughout not just college, but then, you know, college and beyond. And then, um, and then I went to grad school and, and look, I, I love grad school because I, I went to grad school here at UC. Mm-hmm. . Um, I, I always say it's, it's, it's absolutely changed the tra- trajectory of my life, right?

Leigh Fox: (05:23)
And I'm always, I will always be grateful. Um, I'll, I'll be grateful that they said yes, right? Because, look, they didn't have to say yes to a, a, a geology graduate who was working for Schlumberger at the time, who, you know, I wanted to get in my MBA. I had no business experience, right? Yeah. So I, I, I mean, I, I had personality, I think. I had a lot of personality. I walked in, I was like - I'm ready to go. I'm ready. I wanna be in your program, you know? And, and they said yes. And, um, I, look, it was hard work, but again, I, you know, you get through it and it truly did change the trajectory of my life. But I think the consonant was just hard work. You know, put your head down, do it. Yeah. And you'll figure it out.

Marianne Lewis: (06:02)
But I, I love that and that how well it's served as well. I think I hear another piece to it. If we could just talk a little about your own career and leadership. You are such a, a model of interdisciplinary learning. I mean, you just talked about geology, starting as, in the veterinary, moving to geology. But I also think of you as a musician with suits than rock and, and personal passions and then into business. Can you share a little bit about, uh, how you see these pieces fitting together or even do they need

Leigh Fox: (06:33)
To? No. I don't think they need to. Yeah. I've always, you know, I, I grew up, um, sort of, you know, watching my mom struggle to, like, you know, support three kids on her own with, with zero support, right? My dad disappeared. And so she had, she was doing it on her own, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, you watched, you watched that as a kid and growing up and you, you realize, like, you got one life, right? And I, I, I, I wanna be happy and I want the people around me to be happy. And, you know, if I'm not happy in something, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna go figure it out. And I, and that is something I kind of promised myself early on, like, with jobs, with whatever it is. Mm-hmm. If I'm not happy doing it, I'm gonna change it and I'm gonna figure something else out.

Leigh Fox: (07:18)
Um, so I, I think that's one driver. I, I'm also a huge believer that, you know, you can, you need to continue to challenge yourself with different things. Um, and I think I'm a, I, I'm a perfect example of that, right? I, I mean, I, I've done so many 180s, right? Mm-hmm. E- even within the company I'm at, you know, I, I never dreamt of being a CEO. I, I, I really didn't. I, I, I fell in love with finance when I was in grad school. Uh, I really, really liked finance. And my goal was to get into finance, to work my way out, you know, through finance orgs, to be an FPNA, to, like, learn about the company and to eventually become a CFO. I, I, I became a CFO at, like, 40, right? And so, and, and I really distinctly remember talking to my wife about, like, hey, I might have, like, peaked early, right?

Leigh Fox: (08:04)
I don't know. Like they say the average tenure of a CEO, CEFO is, like, four years. Oh, I don't know what we're gonna do after this, right? Like, I, you know, it was like this conversation of, we may have to move, right? So just, I wanna prep you. Um, and, you know, it, I was just fortunate enough to, to, you know, to be in a position where I could say yes to things. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, I, again, I never would imagine that I had, would've had this opportunity. Um, but it came, and it's so different than that. You know, a CEO is a very, very different job, right? Mm-hmm. And you learn that over time. Um, but between, you know, that, and, and look, I'm already thinking about, you know, I'm still pretty young. Mm-hmm. I've been in this job for a decade.

Leigh Fox: (08:45)
I'm not gonna be in it for another decade. Okay. Um, y- y - only because a- after a while you, you realize you might be holding the organization back. You're the old fogie, right? Like, so it, it, like, I'm already thinking about what's next. And candidly, like, what's next for me will likely be something completely different, right? Mm-hmm. I don't know that I'll go into business. I, I may go into music. I may do other things, right? Um -

Marianne Lewis: (09:06)
The 180s have served you well. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (09:08)
I, I, look, I, I just think, you know, you follow your passion, right? I, I've always done that. Um, I've, I've followed what feels right. Mm-hmm. And like I said earlier, and then you figure it out, right? You, I, like, you work hard. I get, I ask my kids all the time, right, like younger students, like, what's the formula? It's almost like, you know, when hear - They do. They want to - Oh yeah, they're like -

Marianne Lewis: (09:26)
They do wanna hear it. So

Leigh Fox: (09:27)
What's the formula for CEO? Right? Like, what, what plus what, plus what equals CEO in my career? And there is no formula, right? I, I am, and I am the absolute, you know, poster child for the fact that there's no formula. I sometimes joke like, well, do you have a geology undergrad? Because if you don't, I'm sorry, you know, you're not gonna get. Um, but the hard work piece. Yeah. So critical. Like you need, like, especially when you're young, just work hard and gain experience. And follow. And the hard work becomes easier when you're doing something you truly enjoy and you're passionate about. The hard work is a lot easier. When you're not doing something you enjoy, hard work - Much harder. Feels like hard work. Mm-hmm. Right? When you're doing something you're passionate about, it, it, it really is a lot easier. And I was, I've been very fortunate just to follow those, those paths, right?

Leigh Fox: (10:19)
Yeah. I,

Marianne Lewis: (10:21)
I, I mean, I think it's a, it's a, such a critical point around, uh, the hard work because in part you're saying, you know, some of these 180s, maybe all of them have been, "It's time. I'm not enjoying this fully. I'm gonna make a shift." But you didn't exactly take an easy next pivot. I mean, if, if I think about the Cincinnati Bell move when you joined in 2001, I mean, it was facing some very significant challenges. I think bankruptcy was actually a real concern, but it didn't scare you

Leigh Fox: (10:51)
Off. Well, I'm sure I, I, I, I, I might have been pretty naive at time. Okay, well then - As a, as a, as a young kid. Like I, I think - But you

Marianne Lewis: (10:57)
Saw something.

Leigh Fox: (10:57)
I did. You know, I, oh yeah. I mean, right away you knew something was wrong, right? You got into the, the, you, you got the job and like within months it was like something's amiss, right? Like people are very tense . And I remember

Marianne Lewis: (11:10)
Then - You also saw an opportunity. I,

Leigh Fox: (11:11)
You know - I mean you probably - I did. I, I think it wasn't, maybe it wasn't that I saw an opportunity. I was given opportunities. Okay. And I was, so, so I don't know that I would give myself as much credit as, but people saw something in me to say, "Go figure this out," and I would figure it out. And so they, like, they kept giving me these things to go figure out. And I would go somehow figure it out and just put my head down - Yeah. And work and figure it out. And to me, in that environment, it, you know, once, you know, I, I, I don't wanna paint the picture that I was like, you know, "Hey, there's all this tension. This company's not doing well and, you know, this is a great opportunity for me." There I go. I was nervous as everybody else, right?

Leigh Fox: (11:51)
Like I, I didn't know what was happening. And, but, but what I did know is that the people there were giving me responsibilities that I probably would never have gotten if I was somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Right? I definitely look back and I, I was given opportunities that were well beyond, I think, my experience level. And it, these were several, I think, sink or swim opportunities. Mm-hmm. And I just happened to swim, right? And I think that's, again, that goes back to, like, I put my head down. Yeah. And look, my graduate degree really taught me that. I love that. Your graduate degree, what it, the, the, the ma- massive thing that I gained from my graduate degree is, you know, UC will pile more work on you than you think you can do, right? Until you do it. Right? And then you realize you will figure it out.

Leigh Fox: (12:38)
And it's, it's this concept of, like, you just put your head down, you don't panic, and you put one foot in front of the other, and you just do the work, right? And you organize yourself and you do the work. You, you, and it's almost like tiers. Then you, okay, you've got, you've completed this. Now you go to the next thing, you do the work, right? It's no different in my career, right? Yeah. Um, and I think I was just lucky enough to, like, have people give me these kind of opportunities where it was a lot of hard work. I worked a lot of hours. It was sink or swim. I ended up, you know, surviving through it and thriving in it. And by the time you get out to the other end, you, you look back and you realize I've gained so much valuable experience and so much valuable knowledge.

Leigh Fox: (13:20)
And that's where I try to tell kids, that's when you become important, right? Mm-hmm. That's when you become valuable to an organization. When you put your head down, you do all this work. And then someone like me realizes I've got a person next to me that I can count on, that if a problem comes up, they're on it. I'm not ha - I don't have to worry about it. And their experience helps them level it, like, not panic, level, do the work, manage the people, get it done in the right ways, and move on. And that comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:50)
Oh, absolutely. A, a leader said to me recently, Leigh, and I just, man, I'm just holding it dear and thinking even about our students for the fall, that learning comes through three, three things. Comes through struggle, failure, and conflict. And it, and as I though about that, and it was, it was a funny line because he kept saying, "I just keep learning." It's like you have all three. But I also, I want students to see that's the double edged sword is, it's not saying you're gonna love it and it's gonna always feel great, but oh, there's magic in those challenges.

Leigh Fox: (14:23)
And what's, and it's, it's, it's really spot on. Um, you know, I think where the danger is for, for young people, and I, and I've seen this in, in people throughout, you know, my career that I've, I've dealt with, that when you wanna put the perfect resume together, right? Mm-hmm. And you wanna be the, you know, you wanna go, "Well, I'm gonna go do this job and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna just kill it and I'm gonna do a great job and I'm like, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ace everything I'm given, and then I'm gonna move to this thing and I'm gonna ace everything I'm given. And then I'm gonna ace everything I'm given over here." It doesn't work like that, right? Somebody, and I had this conversation earlier this week with a s - a, a graduate. They asked, you know, like, "What are some of the things you learn?" And I, I laughed.

Leigh Fox: (15:05)
I said, "You know, someone once told me, like, you hardly ever make a wrong decision. You seem like, it seems like you always make the right decisions." And I, and I laughed and I was like, "It's because I've made so many bad decisions." Right? And that's the, I mean, it's there's - People don't see that, right? But there's so much truth in it. It is. Like, you have to - I, I have myself. And I continue to. I continue to make decisions where I'm like, "Well, I'm gonna learn from that, right? Here's what I've learned from this like error." You know? And at a CEO level, what becomes really, um, important is that you have to realize you're, you're not going to get everything right. Mm-hmm. Your, your job is to solve problems and you're going to make mistakes. You're going to have errors in judgment, but you can fix them.

Leigh Fox: (15:49)
Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's just, at my level, some of my

Marianne Lewis: (15:53)
Errors - That resilience and confidence is so true. So

Leigh Fox: (15:55)
My errors are like hundreds of millions of dollars - Yeah, absolutely. Of like, "Hey, I've got to make this decision." Mm-hmm. What if you're off? Well, you have to understand how to pivot and correct. Mm-hmm.

Marianne Lewis: (16:05)
Right? And how to know quickly that you might be off, right?

Leigh Fox: (16:07)
Correct. Correct. And so that, that's the value in, in that experience. And so - That's good. You're never gonna stop making mistakes. And I hope you never do because that's how you learn.

Marianne Lewis: (16:17)
You know, I, I, let's talk a little bit about, more about kind of your leadership approach because you've had, and I mean, I, I can just name a few, but some very significant company defining strategic decisions in your career from the investment in fiber, the decision to go private, the rebrand from Cincinnati Bell to altfafiber. I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty to say the very least in those big ideas. I mean, I think my first question is can, what are the, what are the principles that ground you in that uncertainty of the big, big

Leigh Fox: (16:52)
Decisions? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I, for me, it's as simple as, you know, I've become very good at listening to my heart and understanding, like, if I feel like it's the right decision, then it's the right decision, and then going with it. Um, I learned really early on through watching people around me, both good and bad, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I, I've had a lot of great mentors and people around me that I've, um, I've, I've had the opportunity to work around that have been aw - incredible. Yeah. But, but I've watched them not only succeed in things, but make mistakes and things. And one of the things I learned really early on was that in business, momentum is key. Mm-hmm. Right? You can, you know, you can sit and overanalyze anything. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (17:35)
Paralysis.

Leigh Fox: (17:36)
Yeah. Oh. And it, and it happens. And it's easy to do. Mm-hmm. As leaders, you have to say, look, in my heart and through the, through the data and everything, look, I, look, I'm a, I'm a data geek, so I know what to look at and I've got the ex- experience in, like, why and what matters. And, but when, when you make the decision, make it. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and I've gotten to the point where I make decisions and I sleep well at night. Yeah. Because, because I, I've learned to make them for the right reasons. And that's the other thing that's a challenge, right? I think with leaders, you know, um, you, you, you, these roles are dangerous. Right? And I always say, like, the, the day I got the, the, the title, I became the funniest person in the room, right? You know, I became the most popular.

Leigh Fox: (18:21)
I became very highly paid, right? And I became, you know, and all of this can go to your head. It really can. Right? And I think the best leaders understand that immediately and find ways to counterbalance it and stay humble and, and divorce themselves from their egos, right? And just say. And I do a lot of things really actively, like, in, very intentionally to, like, manage my ego. Because I, I'm as, I'm human, right? I have an ego. And I - Okay. And I'll give you an example. Like, um, I, I, I love. There's an organization that my wife and I got involved with recently, and I, I won't, I won't name them. They're local. They do phen- phenomenal work. But, but, um, they actually called me up. The CEO called me up and said, "We'd like to give you this award." And I said, "You know, I really appreciate that, but that's not why we do what we do.

Leigh Fox: (19:13)
So I'm gonna have to decline." But I told her, I said, "Look, the, the reason is I, in, in my position, I get offered these things a lot." Uh-huh . And I say no more than I say yes. The reason I say no is because I'm trying to man - I don't want it to be, I don't want that to turn into why you do things. Mm-hmm. And I think if you're, if you're thrown accolades all the time, I, I'm a human being. Like you get used to it and that starts. Yes. And that starts becoming the engine. The driver. The driver and why you do things. And I think it's always helpful to have things that, that you consciously do to manage that, that part of you. I love that with intentionality. Yeah. And, and look, music is another thing. I think you and I have talked about this before.

Leigh Fox: (19:58)
Mm-hmm. I, I started taking music very seriously because it's so humbling. It is. Right? I take jazz, right? Yeah. I, I still, look, I've been taking jazz now for 10 years. I still leave lessons like I'm an idiot. Like, like I, but I'm getting better and better and better and better at it. It, one, it, it, it, it's a la - it's a language. Music is a language. It is. So I'm learning a language. Two, I, it's a language that I'm not familiar with and I have no background in, right? And so learning to read music as an example in my 50s, right? Challenging. Humbling, right? Every time I pick the instrument up, it's humbling, right? And I tell people, you have something in your life that humbles you. Mm-hmm. Right? That keeps you grounded and balanced, right? And then your family always keeps you balanced.

Marianne Lewis: (20:48)
They're very helpful with that.

Leigh Fox: (20:49)
They're great at knocking you down as soon as you feel, you know, a little too high on yourself and wham. I've got so many stories about that I could tell, but.

Marianne Lewis: (20:59)
You know, I, I, I, I love that example of, of music as well. And, and you and I have talked about that before. I was thinking about it actually related this morning. There was a great article about the power of sports with the World Cup. And I thought similar to music, there's one, there's the, the people around you, right? Yeah. This, even if it feels like it's an individual accomplishment, there are others. Yeah. Like think about jazz, just the power of a jazz ensemble. But I think about soccer and just the flow of going on. But the other piece is there is always, always, always a level above. Mm-hmm. In fact, there are many. Yeah. And, and it's humbling even as you get, you feel so good, you go, "Oh my goodness." Oh. That's a - Wow. Transcendental.

Leigh Fox: (21:42)
As a musician, the last thing you wanna go on is g- g- go, you never wanna go online and Google good guitar players, right? Like, like you're gonna go, I'm gonna quit because that kid looks like he's eight and he is way better than I am. So, right? And it's, it's absolutely true. Yeah. Right? It's - It is. There are so many naturally talented people. And it really what you have to like, what you start to figure out is you give yourself grace on like learning. Yes. And the, the constant development and the, the learning. And that's the piece that I'm, I'm, I'm such a big believer in. And, and it's the reason why I still do what I do because I'm still learning every day. I'm still, there's still things in the business that change where I'm like, "This is so cool. I've not experienced this before." Uh, whether it's a kind of a leadership change or like some kind of cultural change or some kind of business change or, you know, com- competitive change.

Leigh Fox: (22:31)
It's, it's like, it's constantly evolving and we're constantly changing. It's like, it's always giving us things to learn. And, and if you don't have that, you know, I always tell people, look, that's one of the key elements in, in any kind of work. You want to look for, you know, do you, do you work with good people? Mm-hmm. Are you treated fairly? And, and are you learning? Like, and if you have those three components - Yeah. It's

Marianne Lewis: (22:53)
A secret sauce.

Leigh Fox: (22:54)
You doing pretty well, right? Mm-hmm. And so even if you're like looking at the grass being greener somewhere else, I would take a pause and really, really consider what you have because those are three very special things.

Marianne Lewis: (23:06)
You can make so much of them. Yes. As well. Um, y- y- you, you, you've mentioned, uh, your, the organizations you give back m- more as a volunteer and, and you're so involved. I mean, at UC alone, you're the, you're the chair of our UC Foundation, which is a, a big role and so valued from all of us here at UC. You're on my cabinet, which I, I always value your, your critical friendship. Um, United Way. I mean, I, I know that's a long list, but I think something I really a- always try to help, especially our students understand, because it goes, "Wait a minute, this is a very busy person." And we could start running through all this and you go, "Why?" Yeah. Yeah. Could, could you share a. I mean, what's the intrinsic motivation there? Yeah. I - 'Cause it's stretching you, I'm sure.

Leigh Fox: (23:54)
Yeah. Some, sometimes it, it does. Um, you, you get used to the, the cadence and - Yeah. The schedule. I, I've learned, I've gotten a little better at managing, you know, like I've learned you can't be chairs of three organizations at once, right? Okay. Mm-hmm. So, so, you know, that's, that's pretty, that's, again, learning, constant learning. Um, but I, I, at some point in my career, I, you know, I was working really hard. I was being rewarded. I was being promoted and it just didn't feel good. And so I had this conversation with a good friend of mine who were, you know, worked with us and, and I was talking to him about it. And he's like, "Do you ever think about getting involved?" And he mentioned an organization here locally, uh, Cancer Free Kids. And, um, and I, and I went to one of their dinners and, and I, I kind of realized that that was the piece of, that was the piece of my life that I was, I was missing, right?

Leigh Fox: (24:49)
I was, I was so fortunate to come, to be where I'm at and come from where I came from. Mm-hmm. That, you know, part of me just wanted to give back that for, like, that fortune. Like to say, look, it, it's as important to pay it forward, right? Yeah. T others, right? And it's like the scholarships here. Yeah. And the reason why I love being involved with the foundation. And like these are very important things when you're fortunate enough to, you know, experience the things in life that I've experienced. You have to take a responsibility and give back. And I, I really feel like it, it is our responsibility as leaders. Mm-hmm. And I think most leaders think like this, right? There are obviously, I think, those out there that, that may not, but I think the vast majority of leaders - That's a great ones too.

Leigh Fox: (25:33)
The vast majority of leaders think about, like, look, giving back is a key part of, of. And, and they want to from, from the heart, right? And, and so that sort of shifted in my life and, um, and then, you know, like as you get higher up in an organization, you get more opportunities to give back also. And I think that's important. Um, and so the more I was asked, you know, the more I got engaged with different organizations. And then again, learning, right? Mm-hmm. I learned the things that, like, I was passionate about, the things that maybe I wasn't as passionate about. Sure. And so you learn where your involvement is important because you do wanna follow your passion, especially when you're giving back in, in a philanthropy, uh, kind of philanthropic situation. But, you know, it, it was natural. And, um, it's honestly a very important part of my job now.

Leigh Fox: (26:23)
Mm-hmm. Um, and, and the other piece is - I think it shows. Well, and, and look, it's, it's not all, you know, totally selfless. Um, part of being a CEO is getting out in the community and meeting people. Right. I have met more people in the community and more leaders and built more relationships through being involved with organizations like the Chamber, Arts Wave, United Way, like what name the organization. You get to know people at a whole nother level when you're involved at that, in those organizations. And, and that's, that's truly important. And people get to know you at another level. You know, you, they become, you're not just the CEO of altafiber, you're, you're Leigh and, you know, I've gotten to know Leigh. And, and that's massively important. It is. Right? And so don't underestimate the value of that as, as, as, as you grow in your career, if you're young.

Leigh Fox: (27:14)
It's so important to have that tentacle too and get to, get people to get to know you in that, in that sense also.

Marianne Lewis: (27:21)
I, I just love that point, Leigh. I mean, I, I, I've seen that in our United Way board. It gives me a new respect, not only for the individuals, but for our city, that you can, you can fill a room with leaders of that caliber. Talk about time, tra - talent and treasure. Yeah. I mean, the expense of that room, let alone the incredible wisdom. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (27:44)
It's cool. It's cool. It's

Marianne Lewis: (27:45)
Cool. It is. I always leave just going, man, we have a great city. Yeah. We can care about each other. We care about making it better. And we're all coming at it from different angles. It's not inspiring. Imagine what we can do.

Leigh Fox: (27:56)
Yeah, it's really inspiring. And then you, you, I think it's also a, again, I go back to staying humble and, and, and understanding that you, you s - you really do get a, a really good understanding that people aren't as fortunate as you are. Mm-hmm. And there's a need in the community. Sure. And -

Marianne Lewis: (28:14)
Talk about humbling. Yeah.

Leigh Fox: (28:15)
And, and you, you do have a. I, I feel like I have an obligation as a leader in the city - Yes. To try to do everything I can to lift the city, right? Mm-hmm. And the community up as, as much as I can. So if I can do that by using s - talents that I have, you know, grown through business and I can do, then, then trans - you know, transplant those talents and try to solve problems -

Marianne Lewis: (28:35)
And they are transferable. They are. Absolutely.

Leigh Fox: (28:40)
I just, we, look, I, you know, I'm chairing the United Way, you

Marianne Lewis: (28:42)
Know, campaign

Leigh Fox: (28:43)
Business. I know. And so we ha - Thank you. We had a, well, it's a great, it's, honestly, it's an honor. And we had a great meeting yesterday, Moira and I, and the, the CEO of the United Way. Mm-hmm. And we, we had a great meeting with, with someone. And we were explaining about just how the United Way has developed, um, from where it was to where it is today and how it is really building a foundation that I'm now starting to see hope of solving very difficult long term problems.

Marianne Lewis: (29:10)
Yeah. The more wicked problems. Yes. Right. Systemic.

Leigh Fox: (29:13)
The systemic problems. And you can see - I see that too. Path forward and you're like, it's not gonna happen tomorrow, but my gosh, these building

Marianne Lewis: (29:19)
Blocks - We're all rowing in the same direction and that's exciting.locks

Leigh Fox: (29:21)
Are starting to come together. Yeah. Right? And it's things like that. I mean, I leave meetings like that and I'm jazzed. Right? I had a great day the rest of my day yesterday from that one meeting. Yeah. Because I was so excited about, like, I love hearing and talking about this stuff and, and getting people to unders - like you see the light bulbs go off and others are like, "Wow, right? This is cool stuff." Like yeah, it really is.

Marianne Lewis: (29:44)
Um, you know, I'd love to, to get your views on, on our, our future leaders here at, at UC. I mean, if, if I may, and you know this well from, from serving on the cabinet. We invented co-op, but we're really making a step change to think of. About co-op not as a, a thing you do and experience you have, but as this engine to transformational learning that happens, including in an MBA who's not doing a traditional co-op, but it's the connective tissue between s - absolutely our partners in the city and an industry and our alumni link to our faculty and staff experts and then always with the students in mind. And how do you get that working as a, an engine that hums and helps challenge and push and energize - Yeah. The learning that's possible. I mean, that's what wakes me up every day because it's so exciting to see the changes in students that are possible.

Marianne Lewis: (30:40)
But you sit in a different seat, you know the change is happening in the industry, what qualities do you think are just critical that we're, we use that engine to hone? Uh,

Leigh Fox: (30:52)
That's a great question. Um, you know, what we look for, and, and we, we see this in certain young people that we, we've hired, we've been honestly amazed at some of the things that come out of some of the young folks, even interns that we see come through the organization. Um, critical thinking i- is in, in problem solving - uh-huh. In, in that, in that like creativity, like the, the combination that like trifecta - Yeah. Is going to be massively important, right? I think understanding the tech is going to be like a baseline. Mm-hmm. Right? Table stakes. It's going to be like table stakes, right? I agree. Like we're going to kind of assume you understand the tech. Like right now I - No,

Marianne Lewis: (31:31)
We better make sure they live up to that assumption. I

Leigh Fox: (31:33)
Assume because you're X younger than I am, that you're way better at the tech than I am, right? It's, it's combining their knowledge of the tech with my experience in business and trying to get them to understand sort of my experience in the business. And you know, learning quickly, what you see out of the, these kids is like they can absorb things very quickly. Yeah. And, you know, I've said this to you before, like the, you know, when I, you hear so many things about the, like the young people. You do. And I, I laugh. I'm like, you know, you go back to the 60s and I'm sure they said the same thing, the 70s, they said the same thing. Every generation looks at the youth and they're like, "We're done," right? And every time somebody, I hear that, I'm like, "Go, go spend some time at UC."

Marianne Lewis: (32:19)
It's true.

Leigh Fox: (32:20)
Like go, you

Marianne Lewis: (32:21)
Have hope and faith in this next generation.

Leigh Fox: (32:23)
Yeah. If you think that, go spend some time with, with some of these students. I agree. Because they're rock stars. Like I, I do, you know - And

Marianne Lewis: (32:29)
They're different.

Leigh Fox: (32:30)
They're different. They are. But man, they are rock stars. I love so. Right? And you know, I think getting them the experience in business and getting them in the right places, and I, I think getting them to understand also that I think some of them come in with expectations that are like, you know, like when I get questions like, okay, what are the three steps to CEO? Right? Well, there's probably gonna be more than three steps, right? Mm-hmm. I, I think understanding that it's going to be work, right? And I actually say this, I got this from my, my former boss and it's like, I, I, I don't know how many times, I totally ripped this off and I'm sure he ripped it off from somebody, but I love it. I say it so many times that, you know, he, you know, he said, you know, in your 20s, you party.

Leigh Fox: (33:14)
In your 30s, you learn. In your 40s, you earn. In your 50s, you mentor. In your 60s, you get out. Right? And if you look at a career, that's not that far off, right? And for, for 20 and 30 year olds, what they have to understand is, one, enjoy life, but work really hard in the world. Really hard. And it's going to take time. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and the expectations to earn and like all these things that like these, these glittery things that people in front, it will come. Yeah. Right? But it comes with experience.

Marianne Lewis: (33:44)
And climbing that learning curve and - Correct.

Leigh Fox: (33:46)
Correct. It comes with experience. So give yourself a little bit of grace. Work hard. Mm-hmm. And understand that's gonna, gonna happen. And the other thing I try to impart on, on kids is that like, do it while you're young because, you know, your life changes too, right? Like, you know, look, I, I got married at like, you know, 30 something and, you know, you start having kids and, you know, that's a change, right? And I mean, when I had my first kid, my priorities flipped overnight. Yeah. Right?

Marianne Lewis: (34:15)
Literally.

Leigh Fox: (34:16)
And then yeah, overnight. I know. And, and, and whether that's a path you want or not, it doesn't matter. There are going to be life changes that are, you're going to experience that your priorities may shift and that's okay. Right. But take advantage of the time you have in the situation you're in, understand it, and just work really hard and learn. Mm-hmm. And it's that, that's how you gain experience, right? And then, but, but before you know it, you're gonna turn around, you're gonna be like, "I know all this. This is great. I am in a place where I feel comfortable. I am earning. I am like all this stuff you, you've - Exactly. I am the CEO now, right? You know, who, you know, trust me, you've got a f - plenty of CEOs in this building that you're teaching,

Marianne Lewis: (34:54)
So. Oh, we do. I, I appreciate that. And, and I just appreciate you, Leigh. I appreciate your wisdom, your engagement. I think the put your head down, work hard, just learn through the grind, but also - Have fun with the ground. Yeah, have fun and lean into the problems. Yeah. I mean, those challenges will pay off.

Leigh Fox: (35:13)
You know, the one thing that I, I would probably, you know, you know this about kind of my style too. Like I try to, I use humor alot - uh-huh. To, to, to break tension. I do that very intentionally, right? Because, you know, this is another thing I, I got from being young and watching my mom struggle. It's like, you know, like, look, there are much more serious things in life. Yeah. Right? What, what we do is serious and we, we do take it very serious, but we're not, you know, saving lives. Mm-hmm. And we're not, I'm, we're not a doctor on a, you know, with a patient on a table. You know, have - Look for ourselves. Yeah. Make fun of yourself. Right? Have some fun, right? Enjoy, enjoy each other, right? Break the tension. Mm-hmm. Try to enjoy the situations you're in. Um, and I think that's critically important also.

Leigh Fox: (35:55)
I think we, we, we, especially with what's going on in society and all the tension in society right now, just, you know, treat each other with kindness and, you know, have fun with one another and realize that, like, we're so similar, right? Everyone across the world. I mean, I, you mentioned the World Cup earlier. Yeah. I think, look, that's one thing that I absolutely love seeing from the World Cup is that - I just love it. Like, you, you get - It's my heart full. Oh, I, you really do. You get people, and we tell our kids this. Uh, and I, I was lucky enough to travel as a, a young, a young man. You learn that everyone around the world's similar. Mm-hmm. Right? They all have similar, you know, hopes and dreams and passions and like - Yeah, that's true. Y- you are so much in common with the people around the world that, like, just realize that and, and get to know people and be kind and serve others and just, just really.

Leigh Fox: (36:43)
And I say that. It, like, if you asked. I have a tagline, like, in, in our organization. I just, I, oh, I end everything with be safe, be kind, and serve others, right? And, and I'm serious about it. Like just, just,

Speaker 4: (36:55)
You know - It's a good

Leigh Fox: (36:56)
Tagline, Leigh. Be kind to people and enjoy things. Enjoy building those relationships and, um, you know, and, and good things will happen naturally. They

Speaker 4: (37:05)
Absolutely will. Right. Thank you, Leigh. Yeah. It's been

Leigh Fox: (37:07)
A pleasure. Yeah, always.

Grant Freking: (37:09)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking, or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.