Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:00)
Hey, Bearcats, it's Mirsayah Wasnuk and I'm a student here at the Lindner College of Business, and I'm also the president of Net Impact UC Consulting. Welcome back to Sustainability in Business, a Bearcats Mean Business Student Series, a new series exploring key topics in sustainability and how you can apply them to your future career goals in business. Today my guest is Braden Trauth.

Braden Trauth: (00:21)
Hello,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:22)
Braden. Could you introduce yourself and, um, what you do here at uc?

Braden Trauth: (00:27)
Yeah, I'm an assistant professor of industrial design, um, and I have spent about 25 years delving into sustainability from product design and that perspective and trying to understand what sustainability is, and eventually sort of explored a lot of different aspects of sustainability and eventually came back to product design after I had seen some successful endeavors within it, working with some former students and such. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:52)
Yeah. When did, what, what is your definition of sustainability and when did you find out that that was something that you wanted to explore and make your lifelong career?

Braden Trauth: (01:01)
So, I actually started out as a, in car design. That was sort of my big dream since I was nine years old. And one of my professors here at uc started telling me about sustainable product design. And, you know, just with my upbringing, which was also very religious, was, you know, a big interest in trying to understand how to really have a, a larger impact. And, you know, designing cars is great, but also as he started to explain to me about sustainability, I was like, oh, this is something that's not going away. As, you know, humans have become more successful on the planet. We're gonna need to figure out how to really live with the planet. So, you know, in terms of resources, in terms of population growth and all that. And so really started my journey when I was an undergrad here at dap, uh, or here at uc at dap, and went on my journey trying to understand it, working at places like the New England Aquarium up in Boston, designing exhibits to educate people about their impacts on the oceans when they go and make purchases at places like Home Depot. And so, um, then eventually I found my way out to building fully sustainable off-grid homes, um, which really sort of brought it fully together. Uh, and then I found my way to permaculture, and that really brought everything together. It brought in aspects of, um, energy theory and ecology. And once I understood those bigger pictures, I was like, oh, okay, this is, you know, this is sort of what we need to do and where we need to go. And so

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (02:36)
How did, um, you know, ex like getting experience in all those different areas of sustainability, um, affect your worldview of it?

Braden Trauth: (02:44)
It really, I mean, you know, we're all living organisms and we sort of spawned out of this earth and we just have more capacity than a lot of other living organisms. And so once I started to understand sustainability, it really gave me a perspective of just looking at sort of this historical aspect of humans on earth. And one of the, I think most inspiring things about our time right now and other cultures figured this out, but you know, and not all the cultures figured it out, was how to live on planet earth and enhance it and make it better for all living beings. And, um, you know, once I understood those elements, it was like, oh, okay, this is what we're doing and this is where we need to go. And, you know, understanding how, basically how nature has done it for 2 billion years successfully and has evolved and, you know, suffered setbacks, you know, and the dinosaurs went extinct, it eventually rebounded, you know mm-hmm .

Braden Trauth: (03:48)
And different organisms succeeded and other ones didn't, you know, but, but, and that's the way that nature tends to work. But then to bring it all the way down to our daily lives, um, you know, is really the challenge. And that's, you know, that's what brought me back into academia, um, years ago, was really trying to understand. Um, I was actually working down in Haiti, way out in the mountains working with peasant farmers as these gentlemen, as these folks called themselves and watching women wash clothes in the river. And at that point I realized the value of a well-designed washing machine and what it lends in terms of the opportunity, not just ecologically, but also societally as well, and the fact that we can just throw our clothes into a washing machine, press a button, walk away, come back, throw it in the dryer, press a button, walk away, gives us all this free time to then go and do other things like science medicine.

Braden Trauth: (04:49)
And with that, it really helped me understand, number one, there's advances of medicine. I mean, working out in the mountains of Haiti, I, you know, I was working with a medical crew actually. And, and, um, one of the gentlemen came in and his hand was cut open. And it was one of those things where they, the doctors were like, you need to go to a hospital and you realize the value of medicine, you realize the value of science, you realize the value of all these different aspects, but then also, you know, things that we take for granted here. And, um, and so that's what brought me back was realizing like, well, if we could design a good washing machine that, you know, and when the women are washing their clothes in the river, it, it was this beautiful mountain stream up in the mountains, fresh water, you can almost drink right outta the mountain, but once you started to wash your clothes in it, it polluted it for everyone else. So how do you design a washing machine that takes that water, filters it, you know, brings it back in, makes it reusable again, and then also respects the limitations of materials of energy on earth? And so those are some of the bigger aspects. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (05:59)
Yeah. I kinda wanna pull, um, on a string a little bit Yeah. From something you mentioned earlier. Yeah. You said that you built almost like a tiny home that was completely off grid. Could you tell us a little bit more about what made you do that? Um, I know that there's a lot of students here I've had conversations with that are super interested in possibly like, creating those and selling those. Yeah. Um, but I'd love to hear about it. Yeah,

Braden Trauth: (06:19)
It, it, so I, I found out about them at DAP actually, and it turned out that this gentleman, he graduated from DAP in architecture in 1969, went out to New Mexico and started experimenting with sustainable building, which was popular. Then we were dealing with, uh, an energy crunch through the seventies. And because of that, a lot of people were trying to find solutions. And he living in Taos, New Mexico, it actually has the oldest continuously inhabited building in the Americas, which is the Taos Pueblo. And it's in contention with the Acoma Pueblo, the other, another tribe further south. But people have lived in that building for almost a thousand years, and the building has taken care of them. It's given them warmth in the winter. Cool. In the summer they have access to food and water. And so you could see where you pulled that inspiration and the homes that he was working on, eventually he called 'em Earthships and they were made of tires, cans, and bottles.

Braden Trauth: (07:17)
So taking waste materials that no one wants or has much value, especially back in the seventies and eighties and, um, before recycling was even that significantly lo as big as it is now. But the homes captured the sun to heat the home, uh, captured cool from the ground to cool the home, just like if you're in a basement on a hot summer day, um, it captures solar, electric through solar panels, and then it harvests rain water from the sky, and they only get eight inches of rain a year out there. And they recycle that water four times. And he's, uh, come back to speak at DAP several times. They actually built one in the early nineties right next to DAP before they built the big edition, the Aronoff edition, which is the big pastel colored aspect of dap. But he, um, he actually, was it last year or two years ago, uh, good Morning America broadcast their Earth Day show from the community that he built, that I used to live in.

Braden Trauth: (08:17)
Wow. And when I worked out there, there were a lot of dap alums, a lot of architectural alums, and a lot of them owned their homes outright. They had almost no energy bills, almost no water bills. Um, and they could grow food off their wastewater as well. And, um, and it's really impressive. I have friends who've built them and, you know, especially dealing with the housing challenges that we're dealing with right now, it lends itself to an opportunity possibly to try to solve the challenges of it. And that's what Mike really was going for. And when I lived in mine, it was very comfortable. I owned it for two years. I learned a lot about sustainable building at that point, and really laid a foundation for me, understanding sort of bigger picture ideas of, of the possibility of sustainability. So

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (09:09)
That's great. Yeah. Um, do you have any, uh, like I would say advice for students here at Lindner College of Business on how they could think about, you know, topics related to sustainability or topics related to design whenever they go into their careers? Like you seem to have a very interesting perspective and a way of seeing things. Um, do you have any advice for, for them?

Braden Trauth: (09:31)
I mean, I think w with the world that, you know, we're, as the world evolves, you know, as we go out into the world and, you know, graduate from school, my take is is that you guys will have to deal with these challenges more and more, coming up with different ideas to deal with different problems. And that's what every generation has had to deal with at different times. Um, that's what gave us all these advancements. And I think that, you know, as long as you stay open creative, I always say too, look to nature. 'cause nature has worked for 2 billion years and we evolved from it. We eat food from it, we excrete things back to it, our bodies decompose and go back to it. Um, and how it's managed to pull that off, you know, through, you know, major extinction events and, you know, it still rebounds and it, it's through that evolutionary process, which humans do have.

Braden Trauth: (10:27)
You know, every time we come up with new science and medicine and business ideas, those are all responding to the world of opportunities that exist around us. And through good creativity, we can understand how to come up with those solutions really to solve people's problems. And the planet's challenges too. And those two aspects, you know, are really fundamental to sustainability is, is always looking back to people and looking back to the earth as well. You know, because we're a part of it. And if we understand those cyclical aspects of it, then we can really understand how to build sustainable businesses, how to build successful businesses that really fulfill people's needs. And to me, that's really just fundamental. And I think people who are able to do that will build the new economies in the future. And I mean, I watch the computer economy come about, come about, and it shifted a lot of things.

Braden Trauth: (11:28)
It shifted. I mean, really prior to that, the Midwest was, I've heard some DAP alums who have worked for big tech companies who were VPs of, you know, tech companies that we use every day. And they're like, we were in the si, Ohio was the Silicon Valley, you know, of the 19th century of the 20th century, sorry. And Silicon Valley sort of took a lot of that through computers. But, you know, if we keep an open mind and creative that we can really find those next opportunities and build out the next economy, which is exactly what happened with Silicon Valley over time, you know, they, they saw opportunities, they dreamed up opportunities, they figured out how to execute it through science research, problem solving, engineering, you know, you, you name it. And over time it, it worked, you know? So now we get to enjoy the benefits of technology, which can also help us with sustainability as well. So

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (12:29)
I'm sure like in your experiences, you've had to convince people of, you know, investment, um, whatever teams you're working on, um, you might have had to be like, Hey, like we need to invest this amount of money and we won't see return for maybe a long period of time, but the return that we'll receive at the end is we'll outnumber anything that we, we spend now. And so do you have any advice for students trying to articulate ROI, um, you know, in whatever teams they go into? Um, yeah.

Braden Trauth: (12:58)
I mean, ROI in general is what nature does. . It takes a seed. It, you know, falls in the ground or maybe it's buried by a squirrel, been watching squirrels bury 'em all fall, . And you think about, I watch oak trees come up in the coming years, and it's really interesting to just watch those squirrels planting their great, great grandkids food knowingly and unknowingly , you know, they're, they're planting for the fall. They're, they're burying the food for themselves and then they forget about it. And then what happens? You get more oak trees that produce lots of, lots more acorns and that feed squirrels for generations to come. And that's the way that nature works, is ROI return on investment. And it wouldn't work without that. If this, if it took more energy for the squirrel to plant that food source, if you will, it wouldn't survive.

Braden Trauth: (13:56)
And that is fundamental to nature. And there's what really helped me understand sustainability was understanding a lot of energy theory. Um, and there's something called energy return on energy invested. And once I understood that that piece, it really helped me understand new opportunities. And, you know, in, in the oil industry, in the oil era, um, when, if you've ever watched the movie or the TV show the Beverly Hillbillies, there's a scene in the opening scene where Jed Clampett shoots the ground and oil starts bubbling up. They're down somewhere in Texas and they make a ton of money 'cause it's easy to get that oil out of the ground. Now oil's more challenging. And the oil industry started here in Ohio. It started with, um, standard oil up in northern Ohio and with the Rockefellers, and actually our daughter goes to school right up on Clifton Avenue, which I found out the gentleman who owned that, the estate before that school was built, he worked with Rockefeller and he was in charge of standard oil and in, I believe, Kentucky.

Braden Trauth: (15:02)
Um, but they were the richest people in the world that Rockefellers and, you know, from that era. But that was because oil was very easy to get out of the ground. And it pro gave us a lot of resources. It gave us a lot of ability to produce a lot of things and power a lot of things, including airplanes, automobiles, you know, factories, all that. And back then, when Judd clamp had shot the ground, it would take about one gallon of gasoline to get 200 gallons of gasoline or oil out of the ground. That number has since dropped. The oil fields here in here in Ohio have mostly started to dry up fracked oils still a big, big aspect of our economy, which came back in the last 15 years. Um, but after that, you know, the, the oil wells have, they do run dry.

Braden Trauth: (15:51)
And so how do we take this wealth and invest it into our future and our children's future and our great great, great great grandchildren's future. And there's a, a old Native American saying, and there's actually a wonderful company called Seventh Generation, um, that Unilever, I believe bought and I believe Unilever's, CEO is actually a, a uc business college alum. And he, uh, as far as I know, I think he turned them into a B corporation, which is a whole nother topic. But, um, but seventh Generation gets its name from this Native American philosophy that you do stuff for the, that you never do anything that would hurt the next seven generations and how they would survive. And so that's, you know, a really important philosophy. I was raised with very conservative values in my family. And, and, you know, out of those perspectives I was able to, you know, me and me and my brother had talked to my dad about these ideas and you know, they have solar panels on their house. They have an electric car. 'cause it just made financial sense, it made rational sense in the future. And so how do we take this great wealth and sort of invest it into the future? And that's the business opportunity that really exists all around, um, in a free market system. So, you know,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (17:16)
That was a great answer

Braden Trauth: (17:19)
And I could talk more about E-R-O-E-I. It, it's, it's one of those things that when we built those homes, you know, they would capture the sunlight and the sun. The wonderful thing is the sun is free , it keeps shining every day. And so it would capture that sunlight and heat our homes through the winter. And it was colder than Cincinnati for sure. It was probably as cold as Michigan, um, where we were in New Mexico, which always surprises people 'cause they think of hot deserts. But we were at 8,000 feet in the desert and um, you know, it was free heating, which was wonderful. And then we also had the solar panels, so that was free electricity. Now granted we had to pay for the solar panels and the batteries and the inverter, but you prorate that out over so many years and it maybe cost me a hundred dollars a year, I think at that time to replace all those things, especially the disposable things, the solar panels lasted quite long.

Braden Trauth: (18:15)
Um, but your batteries would have to be replaced every 10 years and, you know, you might need a new inverter or something like that. But, but through, you know, again, going back to that example of like an oak tree, you know, a little acorn is planted in the ground and produces tens of thousands of kilo calories, you know, over its lifetime from that one little acorn. And once I understood energy theory, and there's a professor out of University of Florida, gentleman named Howard Tedom, who's written books about ecology and energy and trying to really get a full grasp of, um, just energy and how it comes from nature and ecosystems, which, um, it really helps you understand how to solve the problems and through good design, through good business strategies, through, um, recognizing those opportunities is really fundamental. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (19:11)
So why, why is business like critical for, you know, fulfilling missions related to, you know, making the world a better place and making more sustainable design? Like how does business fit into that picture?

Braden Trauth: (19:24)
To me, business is the fundamental aspect that keeps the resources flowing. And, you know, it helps us direct, it helps us fulfill our needs. It helps us, um, you know, really scale up strategies and solutions. Um, and you know, you, to me, business is arguably one of the biggest opportunities 'cause you, if you can prove that it's financially successful and you do that through helping people through, you know, fulfilling their needs, um, then you can really, and to me, this is where the biggest opportunity within sustainability lies. Now, sure you have investments and research that do go into new technologies. Um, so many things that we take for granted today were developed out by science researchers at universities, at government agencies. The internet is one of the biggest examples. It was a military asset. The interstate highway also was another one. But once those in, once that infrastructure is developed, it really greases the wheels of business opportunities.

Braden Trauth: (20:42)
And if you look at how the interstate highway system, which was Eisenhower's vision, transitioned us away from railroads, which was a huge employer. My family worked in the, in the railroad industry, you know, my great great ancestors and it employed a lot of people. Um, but as we transitioned to the highway system, the automobile industry started to employ more people. And you look at how large the automobile industry is and how it employs so many countless people that you know, and that's all through business. And out of that we get better livelihoods, we get more comfortable livelihoods. Henry Ford realized that if he paid his workers a living wage, they could all buy his car and therefore he could sell more cars and make more money . So there's something in, in ecosystems called and permaculture design, where basically it's understanding how each element creates niches. So an oak tree creates something called niches, and those niches could be shade underneath the oak tree.

Braden Trauth: (21:47)
They could be food for squirrels, they could be, you know, compost from the leaves. And I think what Henry Ford recognized is that businesses create ecosystems and out of those ecosystems, you create more jobs, more opportunity and more livelihoods for people. And you know, and within permaculture there is this principle that sort of the, the re the niches are endless and the opportunity to design, um, agroforestry systems, for example. Um, within those you get all these different niches which create different opportunities for organisms to live those organisms, if you will, are business opportunities. They're converting resources and turning sunlight, water, minerals, nutrients into food sources, into fiber resources, into energy resources. Um, and that's how nature has always worked. And I think the important thing is to realize is that we discovered this finite resource that's powered our economy for the last 250 years about coal, oil, natural gas, amazing resource.

Braden Trauth: (22:58)
How do we take that and move beyond it? 'cause we know that they do run out. And if, you know, that's why Ohio was one of the world's largest oil producers a hundred years ago, but is not anymore. It's since moved to Oklahoma and then Texas and, um, the Middle East. And so, you know, how do we take these resources and really build out our future and use them really judiciously? 'cause I, I wish the earth would make more of 'em, but it just doesn't. And so when the oil wells run dry, how do we set our great, great, great great grandchildren up for a better livelihood and, you know, taking these resources to build it out? And we, you know, I I always point back to northern Ohio where it all started. So, and actually the fo first oil well was drilled about eight hours northwest of here in, um, northeast of here in northwest Pennsylvania, um, called Drake's Oil Well in 1859.

Braden Trauth: (23:54)
So it's really interesting when you start to learn about energy and, and you know what it's done for us, which is amazing. I mean, I just, I get blown away by what, you know, we can fly halfway around the world in 15 hours now we can talk to people halfway around the world. You go back a hundred fifty two, a hundred and fifty years before this and it would've taken you months sailing on a ship , you know, like, and so how do we keep the progress moving? And that's the big question. And I think, you know, when you lay everything out and lay everything on the table, sustainability inherently has huge opportunities to create that future. And so,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (24:35)
My thanks to Braden for joining me today on this last episode of Sustainability in Business, a Bearcats Mean Business Student series. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who's ready to take the leap at Lindner. Your feedback helps more Bearcats discover the show. Keep showing the world how Bearcat mean business.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business. Today's guest is Liwei Chen, an associate professor at Lindner who now doubles as an Amazon bestselling author How Amazing Liwei's co-authored book generative AI for Business Frameworks, techniques and Governance was recently named the number one new release in the business education and reference category on Amazon. Liwei is here to talk about what students really need to know about generative AI from essential skills and responsible use to how AI will affect their careers, classes and more Liwei. Congrats on the book and thank you for joining me.

Liwei Chen: (00:34)
Thank you so much, grant, and very excited to be here today. It is very wonderful to share what we have been learning about generative ai, especially knowing that our students are using these tools every day now. And the book really come out of the needs of our business students. Mm-hmm . And business, um, professionals we are working with. So I think it's really meaningful to talk about it today here.

Grant Freking: (00:56)
Yeah. You put together this project pretty quickly, so I'm excited to kind of dive into it. Um, you know, in the book's preface, you note that the book was born out of common questions that you and your co-author Wei Chen from the University of Connecticut we're hearing from students, um, students at Lindner UC, students at Connecticut, maybe even students that weren't even at those schools. What were those common questions that you started hearing?

Liwei Chen: (01:16)
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, like in our teaching, students often come to us with two big questions. Okay. The first one is, as business students, where should they even start to learn generative ai? Because many of them do not have strong technical background. So, uh, many, but many of them are using generative AI every day, such as chatGPT, Gemini, uh, copilot, et cetera. And they read and heard a lot of news about generative AI every day as well. So they're really eager to learn more about, um, the technologies such as large language models, prompt engineerings, rag and agent ai. They're really eager to understand how, what these concepts mean and how do these tech, um, how do they work. Um, they wanted to learn in a more systematic and structured way. Okay. And the second question they ask, often ask is how do they, um, actually use, sorry, the second question they often ask is, how can they actually use generative AI to solve business problems?

Liwei Chen: (02:20)
Okay. And they often come from different business backgrounds. They want to learn how to use these technologies in the domains they are interested in. Uh, so this covers among many business majors including marketing, finance, accounting, uh, operations management, um, business analytics, et cetera, et cetera. So they want to see how generative AI is used today in different, um, industries and across multiple functional areas in, in their organizations. So when we look around, we notice that there is actually no textbook talking about, um, generative AI to business students and explain it in a more practical and, um, understandable way. Sure. So that's, um, makes us to think maybe, um, we can write one to compliment the existing resources, which are mostly, um, either to technical or to conceptual. Um, so that's how we come up with our book.

Grant Freking: (03:19)
Yeah. It's making sort of the technology kind of applicable and understanding for everyone. Now, once students start using this technology, you know, they come into some responsible use questions. Right. So what are a few ways that students can responsibly use generative AI in their classes?

Liwei Chen: (03:33)
Yeah. Actually we see students using generally AI every week, every day. And I definitely see both use a good use and bad use. Um, so I often offer students with some guidelines, first of all, be mindful that you need to keep, um, privacy and security in, in your mind. Um, do not just paste sensitive data or identifiable data into the public tools. Um, and second, very importantly, they need to use AI as a learning, um, partner instead of a shortcut. So they need to be responsible for any, um, like submissions they work on. They, they can use AI as tools to explain concepts, generate practice questions, or for brainstorming purposes, but they should not use AI to generate the solutions and submit it without their own thinking. Uh, if they use AI in that way, they lose the value of learning.

Grant Freking: (04:35)
Right? Yeah. You, there's the, the shortcut takes you nowhere. You're not, you're not learning anything. And then once you get to the professional setting, you, you're still stuck without the knowledge.

Liwei Chen: (04:43)
Exactly. Exactly.

Grant Freking: (04:45)
Yeah. So what are some of the top generative AI skills that all students need to know to thrive professionally?

Liwei Chen: (04:53)
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, we view there are, uh, four essential skills. I would say. The first one is prompt engineering. So basically you need to know how to communicate with AI, with clear instructions, context, and, um, constraints. And it now has become a basic digital literacy. Um, in the second one, I would say the retrieval augmented generation, which is the re. Um, so that will connect with AI to pro, um, to provide more accurate, um, knowledge resources. So I think that is very crucial in business settings where the accuracy of information is very, very important. And the third skill, I would say, um, the capability to work with AI agents and, um, develop and build agent workflows. Um, this is the new trend that requires people, human agents to collaborate with the AI agents and to accomplish some more complex tasks. Um, and the last skill, I would say is the avail, uh, the ability to evaluate AI generated content because we know that AI could, um, hallucinate and it could generate, um, unexpected results. So human students should be able to evaluate those, um, output generated by AI and, and, uh, detect the hallucinations and make some judgements when the output is problematic.

Grant Freking: (06:19)
You mentioned trends, and we both know that a AI is changing by the minute virtually. Um, and as a generative AI instructor for Lindner students and masters and MBA and graduate certificate programs, you got a wide range there. How do you keep course content current with the constantly shifting landscape?

Liwei Chen: (06:37)
Definitely. That's a, that's a very true question. So I update the course materials continuously. Okay. Um, at least weekly . Wow. Yeah, because this space is evolving so fast, um, and I often, um, organize my information in a very, um, uh, structured way. Um, and even though the, the tools and app applications change the founda, uh, the foundations, the fundamental concepts remain stable. So I try to cover those relatively stable concepts in my lectures. Um, so, so these concepts would not disappear even though the applications might have changed. Um, and I also, I need to test these tools, uh, I use in the classroom before, um, the brief before each class. Um, but some things will happen , um, some updates in the system will make some function, uh, not working for the students. Right. The, the, the next day right after I test it, .

Grant Freking: (07:38)
Right. Yeah. And I imagine your students are who, who are actually very, the most, who are especially quite interested in the subject, are probably making you aware of, okay, this might have changed, you know, to your course material as well.

Liwei Chen: (07:49)
Exactly.

Grant Freking: (07:50)
Helping you out. Yeah. So speaking of those students, do you find that students that you instruct are, you know, once they become, I guess, fully aware or mostly aware of like the power of AI and its capabilities, are they worried about job security or even future job security if they may not be, um, you know, a graduate student who already has a full-time job, if they're, you know, still working toward that full-time job? How worried are they about job security?

Liwei Chen: (08:13)
That's an excellent question, and I definitely see mixed emotions on this, on this aspect. And very interestingly, I observed the emotions change, um, as the course progresses. So it's very natural to see some students are relatively more positive about gen generative ai. Mm-hmm . And others are more cautious. But at the very beginning of the course, many of them are just unsure and they do not know enough, um, to evaluate the impact on their own, uh, future job. But as we learn more, they kind of, usually they're very amidst to see how powerful and capable the generative AI has become. And at that point, that usually, um, spark them to develop some deeper thoughts how this will replace their job, um, and affect their, their work. Um, and later on we talk about some governance challenges, ethical issues. Um, those concerns might be, uh, uh, drawn back a little bit because they, they see the values of human beings to still, um, be included in this process to, um, to manage how to use generative AI and address those, um, potential challenges and issues.

Liwei Chen: (09:27)
Um, usually at the end of the course, my students are still very excited about, um, generative ai, and they're eager to learn more. But I would say that excitement becomes more infor, uh, informed. It's in a, a much more informed way, um, because they have a more comprehensive understanding about both the threats and the opportunities, and they see both the potential and the challenges. So, um, it's mixed . Sure. And they, one important point I want to make, um, for my, uh, for my students to understand is AI is not just replacing human's job. They are, they actually are powerful to augment human capabilities and human can collaborate with AI to achieve better performance.

Grant Freking: (10:13)
It's another way of partnering with, you know. Exactly. And that just an entity. Right, .

Liwei Chen: (10:17)
Exactly. ,

Grant Freking: (10:19)
Let's talk about non-AI skills for a second. What are s in your experience, what are your essential business skills or principles that you sort of consider timeless that are sort of maybe immune to AI disruption?

Liwei Chen: (10:32)
Yeah, that is a very thoughtful question. I have also been asking it myself. Okay. Right. So, um, to me, um, personally, three skills stand out. The first one I think is the critical thinking. I think it is very important to have the ability to ask great questions and have the ability to challenge AI generated solutions. Um, even though AI can generate content, but ultimately it's human who decide what is meaningful and what is responsible, right? And the second skill, I think is communication. Um, even though AI can help generate content, the clear communication still come out from the clear thinking. Um, and I think AI cannot replace human, um, intention and empathy. That is very important. The way we connect with others through our words still matters a lot. And the third skill, I think very important is, uh, the capabil, the ability to understand people and organizations, right? The, this is where the humanity really, um, jumps in. Um, AI cannot build trust and understand human needs, manage relationships, or, uh, navigate the team dynamics. So skills like empathy, listening, caring for others, uh, leadership, I think those are still very valuable skills that cannot be replaced by ai.

Grant Freking: (11:56)
Yeah, I have to agree with all that. So you're, you're saying that we're, we're not in danger of AI running major companies anytime soon, right?

Liwei Chen: (12:02)
?

Grant Freking: (12:03)
Yes. So let's talk future students to sort of wrap up here. If a high school student is listening to this and is sort of yearning to study business collegially, hopefully at the Lindner College of business, what should they know? Like, you know, early stage about generative ai, they're probably using it in their, in their classroom right now, and what makes Lindner a strong place to study this topic?

Liwei Chen: (12:23)
Yeah, I think that's a great question. High school students I think should know that AI is not just for computer scientist. It is, it affects all the majors, all the industries, including our, uh, business majors. So no matter where you are interested in AI will be part of your, uh, future work, right? Um, and the second point I want to make is, uh, keep your curiosity and AI will reward your curiosity. Um, you do not need to have a very strong, um, technical background. You do not need to, um, know programming to start learning. As long as you know, um, how to ask good questions and think clearer, you actually can start exploring generative ai. Um, and the last point I want to make is that as for Lindner, we have built a very strong, um, ecosystem for AI for business. And we offer specialized courses across multiple programs.

Liwei Chen: (13:21)
And we have multiple, um, uh, labs like Applied AI labs, and we have business centers to support the learning. And we offer tons of opportunities to work on real world projects collaborating with companies. So these are great opportunities for the students. They are not just learning the concepts from the textbook. They also put those, put what they learn into practice. Um, so I think the students can get not only the conceptual understanding, but also practical skills, which is super important, um, in today's world. And I think Lindner is a wonderful place to prepare for AI education.

Grant Freking: (14:00)
That's a wrap on today's episode of Bearcats Mean Business. My thanks to Liwei Chen for appearing. And congrats once again to her on her new co-authored book, which is called Generative AI for Business Frameworks, techniques and Governance. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who's ready to take the leap at Lindner. Your feedback helps more Bearcats discover the show. Until next time, keep showing the world how Bearcats mean business.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:00)
Hey Bearcats. It's Mirsayah Wasnuk and I'm a student at the Lindner College of Business and the president of Net Impact UC Consulting. Welcome back to Sustainability in Business, a Bearcats Mean Business Student series, a new series exploring key topics in sustainability, and how you can apply them to your future career goals in business. Today, my guests are third year Lindner student Serenity Pastor and Lindner Community Engagement Assistant Director Brienne Blair. We are sharing our unique experience attending the 2025 United Nations Climate Change Conference referred to as COP30 in Brazil, a major international climate summit that can be over 200 countries, thousands of NGOs and leaders from key industries including agriculture, forestry, renewable energy, and transportation. Thank you for being here, serenity and Brie.

Serenity Pastor: (00:45)
Hi. I am glad to be here.

Brienne Blair: (00:47)
Yes, I'm glad to be here as well.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:50)
Can you tell us about your professional experiences and how it led you to attend COP30?

Serenity Pastor: (00:55)
For sure. Um, I'm always a Lindner. I'm always engaging with students, and the atrium is the common ground for mingling with anybody that comes in. And so I remember talking to you Mirsayah, um, and you brought the idea of COP30 to my attention simply because we knew that, um, the Office of Community Engagement Main initiative was to strengthen, um, study away experiences. And so we saw this as a strong start to, um, start this initiative. And from there we hit the ground running as far as planning and delegating and making sure that we had all the boxes checked. And so I guess my personal, my professional experiences was just being present and open to the Lindner community.

Brienne Blair: (01:37)
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I have never heard of COP30, so, um, I took the opportunity when the two, um, lindner women were saying Serenity came to me. They told us about, um, they told Nick and I about COP30. I looked it up and I said, Ooh, I think this is a great opportunity for our students to learn about sustainability. Um, I think this will be a, a great opportunity for, uh, travel. And, um, was I immediately interested? Absolutely. I was. So, um, Nick and I sat down and we, we thought this was gonna be a good opportunity for the two of you. Definitely for Sophia and Sarah. They were incorporated in our decision as well. So, um, I'm excited that you guys came to me. Came to us. Yeah.

Serenity Pastor: (02:23)
I feel like the main part of our negotiation process of convincing Nick and Brie, um, to allow us to come to this conference was what it, what does it appeal to business students? Mm-hmm . So you hear the word sustainability and climate change, you often think science or the College of Arts and Sciences. What was unique about this COP30 experiences or this this COP30 experience was that it was centered around creating, um, financial solutions and tools to be able to fund sustainable practices. And then we were like, bingo. That's why we're coming. There were many, many companies, of course you talked about the non-governmental organizations, um, the countries that were there, but what was the main factor for us was really ing in on those company practices, on, um, funding financial solutions.

Brienne Blair: (03:06)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, to be honest, I really wasn't sold until we got there. Yeah. Until we got to the conference and I was like, oh, I get it now. Yeah. So, yeah. So, um, you know, of course it was an easy sell to go to Brazil, but , but the conference alone, um, when we walked in and they were talking about clean water sources and you know, who was there to represent and I, I really appreciate you both being there 'cause you did a well job, um, representing uc, um, and America, North America. So, um, once we got there, it was really, it solidified it. Yes.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (03:44)
That's amazing. And I know Serenity, you made a really awesome connection. Well, quite a few. Like, could you tell us about the connection you made, um, with the, it was like the vice president of the Global bank in Europe?

Serenity Pastor: (03:56)
Yes. So I was sitting in on a Deloitte session and the panel was called Driving Sustainable Growth. And I remember it being one of the few English speaking sessions and I was like, this is my time to network and find out, um, you know, where my people are, especially those who had an American accent. I'm like, okay, I need to follow this stream of people that are, you know, sharing information. So I ended up talk or walking up to a lady that was sitting in around the coffee sessions in the Deloitte, uh, cubicle, and I was just asking her about, Hey, where are more English sessions that I can find? Um, and where can I find more Deloitte or American company sessions? Because, um, I'm a student from the University of Cincinnati and I would love to, um, build my knowledge that way. First she was, she was surprised that I was an American student.

Serenity Pastor: (04:45)
Um, she expressed to me that this was her like 15th COP and her role in this industry for however many years. She has never, um, seen that many students, especially American students. She talked about there being European students, African students, um, south American students, but never American students. We then got into what was her role and why she was sitting on the panel for Deloitte and she told me that she was the global head of financial solutions for this major European bank. She mentioned how the bank wasn't in, it wasn't really, um, popular in America. She know she said that she worked with JP Morgan, um, and Bank of America, but it was more of a European, um, Asian type of bank. And so that, with that connection, I was able to really hone in on the key pieces of information that she, um, spoke about on the panel, but also get a, a, a worldview of, um, how the sustainable and financial solutions sphere collaborate and

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (05:46)
Serenity as President of Leonard Tribunal, how did your leadership experience prepare you for engaging with global sustainability issues? At COP30?

Serenity Pastor: (05:55)
My mindset going into COP30 was everyone is here for one thing. Everyone was on a mission. Everyone was either there to learn, um, there to negotiate a deal or to have some sort sort of outcome out of the two weeks that COP was happening. And so my mindset in going into COP was one to be, um, as best of a, a representative for the LENNER community, but two, also make sure that I am educating myself and now so that I'm able to spread the knowledge when I come back to Cincinnati. And so the way that I did that was I was really aggressive in making sure that I placed myself in the correct spaces, um, of course English or people that had, or people that had the translators to make sure that I was getting that knowledge. And so, um, as president, I went into the mindset of just representing my community well, um, and making sure that we got the Leonard community got the return on investment for sending us to, um, VM

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (06:49)
Brie. How do you see the Office of Community Engagement supporting uc students and understanding and applying sustainability principles discussed at COP30?

Brienne Blair: (06:58)
So the Office of Community Engagement can, um, support in empowering lender students by providing experiential learning opportunities, um, like driving sustainability initiatives on campus and, um, community projects and, uh, connecting students with, uh, the global goals of COP30 through impactful local actions, discussions, and collaborations across diverse fields.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (07:27)
Serenity, what were some insights from COP30 that you feel future business leaders should focus on, especially regarding ethics and sustainability?

Serenity Pastor: (07:35)
Um, the main theme that I got from COP30 as far as, um, keeping sustainability and ethics in mind was changing the narrative. Often I feel like when people think about sustainable practices as it relates to corporate governance, they're thinking about, oh, we have to cut back, or, oh, we can't do things the way we have to spend more money to, um, enable to be more sustainable. So when you change the narrative, um, it just eliminates the uncertainty when you hone in on the data that, um, the companies are using and garnering to be able to drive sustainable practices that'll be able to eliminate uncertain uncertainty. And so after you eliminate uncertainty and change the narrative, um, then you can use the financial instrument instruments to drive organizational change. And so using financial instruments to drive organizational change really is what I feel like that I got from COP30 was the main aspect of what appealed to companies to be able to adopt sustainable practices because, um, it's, it's commonly assumed that, oh, if we become more sustainable, we're gonna be spending more money. Or Oh, it's gonna cost, it's gonna cost or put aside a deficit if we were to cut back on any resources or energy use. And so when you hone in on those financial instruments, change the narrative and really, um, hone in on the facts, that's how I feel. Um, or that's what I got from COP30 about how future business leaders can align with, um, sustainability and ethics.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (09:08)
Brie, what opportunities exist for uc students to get involved in sustainability initiative initiatives inspired by COP30, both on campus and beyond?

Brienne Blair: (09:17)
So COP30 is, um, sparking a wave of opportunities for students to connect global climate principles with local action. Um, uc offers over like a hundred sustainability related courses across its seven colleges plus certificates and minors that allow students to specialize in areas like environmental policies, sustainable design and climate science. And also students can team up with faculty on projects about renewable energy climate, um, justice or sustainable urban development. Kind of like, um, what Sarah did, she was, you know, very involved with her faculty member. That's how she was able to come to COP30. And this, um, all matches Cop thirty's focus on education and innovation and there's also opportunity for student led initiatives as well. So, um, as you guys are all part of, um, student orgs, you know, incorporating hands-on programs where students team up with local groups to tackle sustainability issues like food security, renewable energy, and cutting down waste, as we know when we were in Brazil, cutting down waste. Yes, .

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (10:31)
Alright, serenity, were there any specific discussions or innovations at COP30 that connected with your role in Leonard Tribunal and your interest in justice or policy?

Serenity Pastor: (10:41)
Yes. Um, one thinging about business practices, I remember a session where they mention organizational change and how they can utilize organizational change to be able to push sustainable initiatives forward. Um, and the way that I feel like that resonated, the way that I feel like that resonates with my role, um, is because I am making sure that all of the roles of the tribunal are aligned to best serve the Leonard community and our student leaders within the Leonard community. And so organizational change and making sure that everyone is aligned with that, um, can be used in sustainable practices and initiatives, but also can be used, um, for student government and community initiatives.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (11:24)
Were there any like specific instruments of organizational change that really struck you of like, I need to go back and I need to learn this, or I need to go back and use this?

Serenity Pastor: (11:34)
One of the main pieces of information that I got from the panelists was that incentive is a short term solution to drive organizational change. Um, they mentioned that what drives people to be motivated to come in and really push the initiative forward was that they know that the work that they're doing is important and the way that they align importance with the work that they're doing on the day to day is making sure that, um, they are constantly tracking the KPIs and making them evident towards the people that are producing those KPIs. Um, another thing that I learned about organizational change was that you don't have to don't cut short term profit for long term solutions. Um, that goes along with what I mentioned earlier about how the way we can really drive sustainable change is that if all companies or mi majority of companies are aligned with, um, sustainable practice is not about nitpicking at the, the beehive is just about making sure that, um, over a long term scale that you are continuously to cut, you're continuously cutting down

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (12:40)
Free. In your view, why is it important for university students to participate in global conversations like COP30 and how does it influence their academic and career growth?

Brienne Blair: (12:50)
Um, as a faculty and staff member, um, I think that it's important for students to have, um, a voice. Um, you guys are the stakeholders, so everything you say, I think we need to incorporate it. Um, I think this type of experience, um, allows you guys to show that what you're learning at uc, coming into a Lindner, this is what we're learning from our classrooms, incorporating it, sharing it with other organizations, sharing it in your leadership roles. So

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (13:22)
Serenity, what leadership skills did you strengthen through attending COP30 and how do you see them impacting your future career in business? At

Serenity Pastor: (13:30)
Cop, I saw myself being an a person that was ready to jump into action. Oftentimes I have calculated, um, responses and calculated actions. And so with cop, with everything going on, there's thousands of people there. Um, it's hot and it's a like a live and energetic, um, area. And so as a leader, I just saw myself just constantly jumping into action, whether it be something or a workshop that I've heard of last minute or someone of importance that I need to get some information from or interview or network with. I just saw myself jumping into action because I knew that, um, the return on investment for the Leonard community and my peers relied on the information that I was getting in this short amount of time. So it wasn't about, no, it was no time to think, just jump into action.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (14:18)
And I actually wanna pull that string a little bit and bring up an experience that you had. Serenity. Um, you had the opportunity to interview a really important person. Could you expand upon that and, um, just your, your, your courage that it took even doing it?

Serenity Pastor: (14:33)
Yes. So Sarah and I were sitting in on this session that Sarah learned from someone else at another session. Again, follow along the lines of people that are speaking English and you know, we can readily communicate. So I made a point to Sarah, let's sit in the front and let's go in on a session. And so as we're sitting in the front, we're seeing people just funnel in, funnel in, and we're like, there's people with badges and we know that the people with badges are from the blue zone. If you, you need a badge to get into the Blue Zone. So I'm like, okay, this is an important session because they're the important people are coming over to the Green Zone . Not to say the green zone is important, but we were like, okay, this is some serious matters. So as the session was going on, um, we are have, we have our translators on and we're seeing these people talk in such a, an energetic way.

Serenity Pastor: (15:17)
They're talking really strong and they're just trying to get their point across. Um, Aing then comes on and says that, that Germany is pledging $1.8 billion to, um, indigenous climate justice. And I found it interesting. Um, so as he, when he made that announcement, I made it, um, again, jumping into action. I made a point of mine to follow him because I found it interesting about how he pledged that large amount of money from his country towards such, um, an impactful group of people. So then again, I dropped the mic, I hopped on the, I hopped on the, the wagon and I went out and I basically held up my voice recording Mike to his first, and I asked him, what does this $1.8 billion mean? And I later found out that he was a delegate representing Germany. And basically the totality of what, um, the $1.8 billion meant was that, um, they felt that it was a major contender in helping the indigenous communities and helping drive against sustainable change. And so I was really grateful to have the opportunity to get so close to someone that was, um, such an of importance for the country of Germany.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (16:30)
Brie, what role do you see student engagement playing in fostering a future where business and community solutions are aligned for sustainability?

Brienne Blair: (16:38)
Yeah. Um, I think that we had a really great opportunity and seeing that COP30 wasn't just for important people, quote unquote, with the blue passports and the and the yellow passports, you know, um, we, we saw indigenous people mm-hmm . You know, and I, I think that, um, we need to mention that experience. Um, those are people who are natives of Brazil, of Beem and, um, they were protesting. They got together as a community, they protested and they said that, um, what about us? You know? So I think that when I was watching it on my, um, phone, um, unfortunately I got to miss the, the protest, but when I saw it on my phone and I saw that they came together as a community and they were all in line with each other, it spoke something to the uc community mm-hmm . Like we could come back and say that as a community, we are going to be one unit and we are going to stand for this just like the indigenous people did at COP30.

Brienne Blair: (17:56)
And um, so to me that was, um, a very humbling experience seeing the Natives come. Um, I think that was something that we can bring back to community engagement, um, department and see that this is how they did it. You know, they came together as one. And, um, that's something that I think we need to kind of follow and lindner coming together as a college of business and, um, we have very bright sustainability majors, economic majors, um, accounting majors, so for all these student organizations that's, um, accounting and we have different, um, different business, um, student orgs coming all together and just building a tighter, stronger community. Yes.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (18:43)
That's amazing. And Serenity, I would say like that, that's exactly what like Lindner Tribunal is for

Serenity Pastor: (18:49)
Mm-hmm . Yeah. Um, I just wanted to just come off of what Bree's saying is that, um, the whole, the whole reason for COP is to drive energy and to just create interest around sustainable practices and eliminating uncertainty and just creating that availability of demand to increase impact mm-hmm . And so with this energy doubt they were bringing and you have all of these different assets that are just, you have all of these different facets that were working together. I feel like that really did Enco encapsulate, um, the 30 year long tenure of COP itself was to really generate that energy, um, to raise awareness and create impact is what we're here for in general.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (19:28)
My thanks to Serenity and Brianne for joining me today on the episode of a sustainability and business, a Bearcats means Business Student series. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who's ready to take the leap at Lindner. Your feedback helps more Bearcat discover the show. Until next time, keep showing the world how Bearcat mean business.