Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now, for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Shawn, you were born in San Diego, you went to high school in North Carolina, and you've lived across the US and multiple countries. How did moving so often shape the way you see people, places, stories?

Shawn Peterson: (00:45)
Yeah. So I think that moving around at an early age has really helped form my, um, mental way of seeing the world and processing things. I think that has helped me be able to adapt fast and quickly compared to a lot of kids my age. And I think that that has helped with the way of not having a fear of moving forward with things that I have ambitions towards.

Grant Freking: (01:09)
Sure. Um, and I know your family is really important to you. Who in your family would you say has most influenced you today? ?

Shawn Peterson: (01:16)
The person that has most influenced me to this day is probably my grandmother and my mother. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
And why is that?

Shawn Peterson: (01:24)
So for one, my grandmother, she has really shaped the way that I, you know, handle my photography work. I think that when it comes to her, she, she passed away before I had a lot of memories of her and experiences with her, but it has helped me realize the worth of memories and how fast they can kind of, you know, quickly fade. And with my mother, you know, she's always been a very supportive person of what I do. Whether she knows, you know, or understands what I do. Exactly. It doesn't matter. She's always gonna be there and stick by my side. So she's a very loving woman and I respect her a lot for that. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:59)
And you mentioned photography, which is part of why we're here today. You were gifted a camera at 16. Were you already hooked on photography then, or that was sort of that sort of kickstart there?

Shawn Peterson: (02:08)
Yeah, so when, actually when I was 16, I did not even know if photography existed, you know? Okay. I've always had an interest in editing videos, you know, doing a lot of graphic design work. But at the age of 16, I was going through a little bit of a, a stump in life. I had a little bit of negativity going on when it came to school, sports, all the kind of things that teenagers go through, right? Yep. Of course. And, um, I remember one day coming home from school, a little bit upset, crying to my mother. I'm a very emotional person and she, you know, without hesitation asked me, you know, are there any hobbies that you're interested in? And I said, you know, I don't know, maybe photography. And without hesitation, she quickly said, all right, let's go. And we head straight to the best buy. And she got me the first camera that she saw.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
And what did that mean to you?

Shawn Peterson: (02:59)
Uh, you know, that really showed, you know, how much my mother really supports me, even though there are times when you might think that you're, you know, your parent, you know, doesn't love you and you're being very exaggerative about that. Yeah. It really shows that, you know, they're willing to do whatever it takes to, you know, help you achieve your goals and be happy in life. And, um, just going out there and, you know, she didn't even look at the price tag. Wow. She asked, you know, the staff, what's the best, you know, beginner camera, I can get 'em. And then we walked out and first thing she said is, I love you. You know? So, um, that really shows the type of person that she is. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (03:32)
That's amazing. That's transition to actually how you ended up here in this physical location, Lindner Hall where we're at right now. When you were looking for a college experience, um, what were you kind of looking for? What seemed, what was gonna be a kind of a good fit for you in, in your eyes?

Shawn Peterson: (03:46)
So when it came to looking for colleges, the thing that really was my main priority was what school can change who I am as a person. And I think growing up in a town in North Carolina, next to the beach in a small town, a lot of people say stagnant and stay in that one area. And I was afraid of being that person who would, you know, be there for the next 40 years. I see. I wanted a lot of growth and I think coming to a school that prides itself on its business aspect in the co-ops, which is something that I think, you know, needs to be out there at more schools, I think that was a real, you know, benefit, you know, and a big factor of why I chose this school. You know, I think that this school can support me and my goals and give me the knowledge that I need to succeed in what I do. And I know that this school can stand behind my back and I can represent this with, you know, full confident and pride.

Grant Freking: (04:38)
Yeah. And so the real world experience kind of aspect that co-ops kind of bring, that was like an one of the main draw for you. Um, what, what were some, were there any other traits or programs that kind of stuck out to you? Or was it just like the real, the kind of the overall arc of the real world experience experience?

Shawn Peterson: (04:52)
So one of them was not really a trait of the school, it was more so, um, you know, something that ties back to my mother, right? Okay. She had me at the age of 18. Okay. And she didn't really have a lot of opportunities after that because she has to, you know, fend for a kid. And she's a Cincinnati native. And so while I've traveled and lived around the world, you know, she grew up primarily in Cincinnati and she never had the chance to go to school. So I figured, you know, might as well rep as University of Cincinnati, because at the end of the day, a student of the University of Cincinnati, their family's also part of the University of Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (05:25)
Absolutely. Let's talk about your business, Shawnie's Cinema. When did you decide to go into business for yourself?

Shawn Peterson: (05:33)
So that was a kind of a no brainer for me when it comes to creative stuff and you know, the generation that we're growing up in, I believe that a lot of the creative things you can do, you can learn online. We have YouTube, we have TikTok now to look at courses and how to do certain things. And I think that when it comes down to running a business, 90% of it is not the work that you do, it's the knowledge that you have to actually operate it. Mm. And I can easily, I can teach anybody how to pick up a camera in less than a day. But teaching them the skills to run the business smoothly and operate is something that I can't learn unless I come to University of Cincinnati. And I think that this school is helping me currently at this moment take those skills and apply it into the work that I do.

Grant Freking: (06:21)
Can you think of like some specific examples? Maybe if it's some, we talked a little bit about what classes you are you're in today before you, you came to the podcast studio. What are some, maybe some specific things that are kind of ticking those boxes and that you're implementing or being able to implement to your business like right away?

Shawn Peterson: (06:36)
Yeah. So one of the classes that has really helped me recently was financial accounting. Okay. I'm taking managerial accounting right now, and that has really helped me with the finance aspect of it. Sure. Handling all the, you know, the paperwork, the accounting side, the budgeting when it comes to doing my work. Because if you don't handle the accounting, you're gonna kind of run out of the money. And it's helped me with a lot of the travel work that I've done where I've had to go outta state to do destination engagement sessions and other type of work such as weddings and proposals.

Grant Freking: (07:07)
So I'm curious what kind of like business problem, or maybe it was just a personal goal, were you trying to solve for yourself when you started your photography business? Or was it a vacancy maybe you saw in the field for, to fulfill for others?

Shawn Peterson: (07:21)
Yeah. So by vacancy in the field of like the wedding industry, yeah. It was primarily the feeling that the clients aren't getting somebody to take the photos that have a deep connection towards them and the event that's going on. Mm. A lot of the times when you get a photographer for a certain event or just like family photos, it kind of feels just like a client to, you know, personnel feeling. Yeah. Like

Grant Freking: (07:46)
Trans transactional.

Shawn Peterson: (07:47)
Yeah. Transactional. And that's not something that I really, you know, enjoy. I'm there for the people at the end of the day, it's their biggest day and you don't want to ruin it. Mm-hmm . And so when I go into a wedding, it's, you know, I'm their best friend. I've learned a lot about them before even the wedding happens, all their family members where they had their first kiss, you know, so my goal is to make their day be memorable. And when they're able to look back at that photo and realize and remember that exact scenario and that feeling that it invokes that, that means my mission was completed, that I did my job properly. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (08:22)
Absolutely. Do you remember getting your first client?

Shawn Peterson: (08:24)
Yes. So my first client was when I was in North Carolina. Okay. And it was honestly a very nerve wracking, you know,

Grant Freking: (08:33)
Well, naturally, yeah,

Shawn Peterson: (08:34)
Yeah. Event. And how it happened was it was actually my counselor. Oh, okay. And so my counselor, you know, said, you know, I know you take photos for people for free and stuff, and I was wondering if you could do a family photo session for me. And I was like, okay, sure. We will do it on the beach. It's nice. Unbeknownst to me though, that it was actually a pregnancy reveal. Oh. And that she was having a baby. And if I knew that, I probably would've said no. But she knew that I needed that little step forward to push me to venture out there and, you know, tackle something that I'm not comfortable with. And it has really helped me be able to engage with other people and keep continuing to push my work forward.

Grant Freking: (09:14)
And how, how did that go?

Shawn Peterson: (09:16)
It was, um, a lot of it of haywire in my head. You know, a lot of things jumbled around thinking, I need to do this, I need to do that. But at the end of the day when I just calm down and I enjoy the moment with them, I think that's what really matters to them. Mm. They don't necessarily care about the poses and how, um, you, you know, handle it. They're more so there for the vibes and if the photos turn out nice and, you know, they recall he was a great photographer, we had a fun time with him. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:41)
Getting an authentic experience, which I think is what you're trying to convey too. Mm-hmm . So how do you balance operating a business full-time and being a student full-time? How was that like for you?

Shawn Peterson: (09:52)
I wouldn't say there's necessarily a, um, a way to balance it. I think that there's priorities. Okay. And so at the end of the day, you need to sit down and think what needs to get done, if there's a high priority to it, priority to it, or if there's a low priority. And I've always put myself a student first and then a business second. And that's also been applied, you know, in earlier aspects of my life, I was student first, athlete second. Mm-hmm . You know, my coaches always, you know, you know, put that into our souls and, you know, preach that all the time. Right. And so I always make sure, you know, the work is done first when it comes to school, and then we handle the business side of things. Now, obviously if it comes to a wedding and it's a huge importance, it's their biggest day, we need to sit down and look at our schedule and see what we can work and move around. Right.

Grant Freking: (10:41)
What's the hardest part about running a business right now?

Shawn Peterson: (10:44)
I think the hardest part is the limitations when it comes to age. That's something that a lot of people don't necessarily realize. Um, when you don't real, when you don't manage a business, is that there's things that I cannot do and there's, um, things that I can't prevent. You know, when it comes to transportation or lodging, when I go for long distance, you know, events, I can't rent a, a driver like a

Grant Freking: (11:09)
Car. Right. Yeah. You gotta be 25, I think, to do that in Ohio. Yeah.

Shawn Peterson: (11:12)
So I have to rely on Uber, and that's kind of an issue in some rural prices where there's only like three Uber drivers. Yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest limitations is being able to safely get to where I need to be and to be able to move around.

Grant Freking: (11:27)
Sure. And what's, like, what are you enjoying the most right now about your business?

Shawn Peterson: (11:31)
I think the thing that I'm enjoying the most about my business is honestly interacting with new people. Okay. I think that that's something that I have been trying to work on since I've moved here from North Carolina, is just interacting with a lot more people and having a good time. And I think that, you know, like I told you, as long as you can make this session feel amazing and great for them, it's gonna work out amazing. And I had a good time all my sessions and you know, my clients, they loved me. They all had a good time as well. So just interacting with people, having a good time is what definitely makes my job feel special and it doesn't feel like a job.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Right. Um, your business, the photography business is one that's based on feedback. Um, your clients are probably consist, are consistently weighing in on your work. I'm sure most of it's positive, but how, how do you manage that? Um, kind of taking in like, I guess the compliments and like patting yourself on the back and also maybe receiving comments that maybe look may maybe make you look inward and be like, all right, I have room to work on this.

Shawn Peterson: (12:28)
Yeah. So how I handle feedback is I always take it in a open, you know, I'm an open-minded person. Mm-hmm . I always take it with, um, you know, care. I'm always looking for feedback, you know, I help, it helps you with growth. Um, that being said, I am a very independent person and I like to test things out before moving with, you know, suggestions. And a lot of the times, you know, being at a young age, um, it backfires. There's a lot of backfiring moments. And my mother, if she was here today, she could say the same thing, like I told you so, you know. Yeah. But I think that's great because it has really helped me become a more of an independent person and be able to learn, you know, I am at that stage in my life where I'm able to make risks. I'm able to fail. I'm not at a, you know, absolutely. A later point in my life where I can't, you know, afford to take those risks.

Grant Freking: (13:16)
Yeah. Try things out. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Absolutely. Do you deal with self-doubt at all? And if so, how do you push through it?

Shawn Peterson: (13:22)
Yeah, so I do deal with self-doubt, even though I am a really confident person. Mm. I think it really stems down to, you know, being in that situation where, let's say I'm in a wedding, right? I'm a 19-year-old photographer in an industry that is typically owned by older people, you know? Yeah. And so it's pretty easy during the wedding with a wedding party, we're having great fun time, and then it comes down to after the ceremony where there's a hundred people there and you need to take photos and control and be a leader. And I don't necessarily take it as a worrisome, you know, weight, I take it more as a responsibility and that they respect me and that they chose me to take control and lead their biggest day of their life.

Grant Freking: (14:04)
Yeah. Get through all those different family photos and everything they want on their checklist. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the sort of the transportation issues that you run into. What's sort of a, a shooter travel experience that presented like maybe other unique challenges for you? I know you mentioned, you know, Vermont, uh, and a pre and a pre-conversation we had, but what, what other things come to mind there?

Shawn Peterson: (14:24)
Yeah, so I mean, if we can go to Vermont for this story actually, um, in case people, you know, haven't been to Vermont, it's kind of a rural area, right? Yeah. And so my, my client, you know, he wanted to take photos at Quee State Park, which is right near, you know, New Hampshire and, uh, Lebanon, that little border Okay. Of Vermont. And so when I fly into there, it was all going smooth and everything we had, I prepped everything, the travel, the logistics, the budgeting, you name it. However, the thing I did not account for was it's a rural area with no Ubers. It's not like Cincinnati where you can get an Uber in five seconds. Mm-hmm . You have to plan for it a day before. So it's nine 30 at nighttime. I can't rent a car and I'm struggling. I'm thinking, well, I might have to walk 15 minutes to get to the hotel. You know? So I think that that was a real opener, uh, and a good experience, you know, to, um, take forward and learn from that, that, you know, I need to, um, be more precise and I need to be more focused on the things that I can't control and figure out solutions to work around that. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:30)
It's like all aspects of, of the trip, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm . Let's close with a couple of thoughts on, um, a more advice I guess for, um, from you to maybe other Lindner students that are maybe looking to take the leap to have an idea about starting a business. Um, maybe they even have their own business. What are some like top tips you would give them? Um, I guess maybe besides just like going for it and like following your passion, what are top tips that you maybe you kind of have learned now, but like in the early days, kind of like stumped you a little bit?

Shawn Peterson: (16:01)
Okay. Besides those few, you know, generic kind of answers, I think that you should honestly start before you're ready. Mm-hmm . I think that's something that's not really said a lot. A lot of people can say, you know, um, your dreams don't move without you. And I think that's true and you need to start before you're ready. And that's something that, um, Stephen Pressfield has said. That's his quote, his famous quote, start before you're ready. Mm. You know, if you start before you're ready, good things will happen. And I think that's something that, you know, really insinuates that you shouldn't be afraid to start, especially when you have the opportunity to take risks. Like I said earlier, if you just are so, if you're so hung up on, you know, the qualifications for that job, then you're never gonna actually get there. Because at the end of the day, it's all about reps, reps, reps, reps. And that helps you get that experience. And so you might as well get those reps starting out before you even learn, even are even qualified for the job. Yeah. That way you can learn the ups and downs of it. And if you actually even like the job.

Grant Freking: (17:02)
Yeah. Give it, give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. Get those, get that some of that real world experience.

Shawn Peterson: (17:06)
And it's okay if it fails, you know, we're all gonna have opportunities to grow from that. I fail, you know, I failed a million times. We've all failed and we've had those type of moments, but it's really about how you can come back from that. And you know, your parents have probably told you that as well. It's, you know, it's how you get back up, you know, and I think that's a great thing to, you know, carry forward is, you know, to start Before you're ready.

Grant Freking: (17:29)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Grant Freking: (00:32)
Phil, tell me about like your entrepreneurship origin story. Where can you trace that back to, um, in your younger years? 'cause you started really early on, I think, even earlier than even most entrepreneurs do.

Phil Santoro: (00:44)
Yeah. So my journey started really with an obsession for building and helping people. And at the age of 12, I built a computer for my grandparents as a gift. I had so much fun that I decided to build a computer for myself, mostly to play age of Empires. And so, you know, I was the youngest one in this gaming community. Naturally I was the most tech savvy, and so I was the one to set up the forum for us to all talk on. And if you remember, back in the early two thousands, forums were the center of the internet. I mean, everyone was on forums, and yet they were incredibly difficult to set up. You had to be technical enough to know PHP and MySQL. You had to buy a domain name and, and web hosting. And so my thesis was remove all the friction and then create a platform where people could sign up for free.

Phil Santoro: (01:33)
And I started my first company when I was 13 in 2002 that did just that people could sign up for a forum. And then in 2007, that's when I launched free forums.org, um, when I was at Madeira High School. And that was an improvement on the platform, you know, more features, easier to use. I spent a lot of time just thinking through every single thing that people needed to talk on the internet. And it took off instantly. We had all kinds of forums. The the largest was a Twilight Moms form where a bunch of moms would talk about the Twilight Movie series, but we had cyclists, gamers, um, sports leagues, any, anything you could think of right. Was on Free Forums. And yeah. At, at our peak we were doing over 125 million monthly page views, which this was pre-social media. That's incredible. Pres smart phones. This, this was a lot of traffic. And here I was in my parents' basement in Madeira, , you know, operating this large platform. And so this really taught me my first lesson about business, which is you take a technical problem and you solve it with an easy product, people will use it.

Grant Freking: (02:42)
So what was like, did you have a template you were working off of? Was you started your, even your journey with Free Forums, did you have like a template or something, an idea in mind? Or were you, was it more learning as you go in this process?

Phil Santoro: (02:51)
Yeah, I completely, first principle is learning by doing. And I didn't even start out to run a business. I started out because I wanted to help people make forums. And it was, it was pretty cool to do that on the internet, you know, back then. So really by, by 2002, there wasn't a way to make money on the internet with forums. That monetization came much later. And eventually in 2008, that's when Google Ads came out. So you could run ads on your website for the first time, right? To make income. Um, but originally it was just to do something cool and, and help people.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
Right. And you spoke earlier about sort of the vacancy you saw with for something as, you know, forgive me as simple as, as a forum mm-hmm . Is that something that you, even going back to your even younger years before you built your first computer for your grandparents starting to see when you started Stu, when you studied and zoned in on something was like, all right, how can I, what's the missing part of this? And how could I possibly make it better?

Phil Santoro: (03:51)
I, I think so, but I think it was more foundational for me. I just like building. Yeah, okay. And I think there's a very unique part of entrepreneurship where you have an idea, you write it down on a piece of paper, and these ideas could come at 2:00 AM or or 2:00 PM during launch any hour of the day, you write it down on a piece of paper, you execute it, you build it, and then you watch millions of people interact with it and enjoy it. And you get a rush from that. That is very unique to entrepreneurship. And, and I picked up on that early. Sure.

Grant Freking: (04:22)
So fast forward a couple years, you're getting ready to pick a, a college, and I'm sure you had many options. Um, and you had, you're also unique in the fact that not many students were like you and had successful business ventures. What made, um, what were the factors that led you down to staying close to home and choosing the Lindner College of Business? In University of Cincinnati,

Phil Santoro: (04:43)
I was living a double life. You know, during the day, , I was a student at Madeira, struggling with biology exams and playing baseball. And then at night I was leading this global forum platform and conferencing with my team until 3:00 AM So I, I knew I wanted to stay somewhere around Cincinnati because I had my business there. I had infrastructure, my computer development, server advisors, mentors, uh, my bank, you know, all the physical component. So I knew I wanted to stay around there, but it was really meeting Dr. Chuck Matthews in the entrepreneurship department. I met with him, had a great conversation, was really impressed by his vision for entrepreneurs and, and student entrepreneurs specifically. And so he was the one that really put it, um, uh, sort of decided, you know, I decided I wanted to go to uc after meeting him.

Grant Freking: (05:37)
And so did he appealed to that part of you that wants to build and scale?

Phil Santoro: (05:40)
Yep, exactly. And then I moved into uc. I actually had two dorm rooms, um, one for me to sleep in. I was at Stratford Heights and then UPA and I had one dorm room to sleep in and one for my business. I had my development server in there and all my computers. And so in the morning before class i'd, I'd roll out of bed, go to the dorm room next door, you know, check on my business, make sure nothing had broken overnight, and then would walk to class. And I, I still remember to this day how hot that room got because they're, you know, they're tiny rooms and I had all this equipment in there, so it, uh, it would heat up.

Grant Freking: (06:16)
What was the reaction for, I guess, your, your fellow classmates and also maybe your other professors that weren't Chuck when you told 'em about this sort of actual business you were running in addition to being a student?

Phil Santoro: (06:26)
Yeah, I think I kept a lot of it private until I sold Free Forums. Okay. So there, there was an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer. So a lot of high school students knew about it at that time, but I kept most of it private. I was just heads down building. Uh, and then when I came to uc, I, I, there were so many great professors that I would meet with during office hours and learn from because I had this unique ability to learn something in the classroom and then apply it literally that next, that next day, maybe even the same day in my business. And I found that very valuable. I, I had a lot of great relationships with professors, and I think they ultimately realized that, um, I was interested in the subject, not just getting a good grade in the class. And so they were willing to help out. Sure.

Grant Freking: (07:15)
And you decided as a sophomore to exit Free Forums. So the first thing that you actually created, how was, was that difficult or did you know you were wanting to move on to something else? How, what was that process like as your first exit?

Phil Santoro: (07:26)
I was burnt out by my sophomore year of college. You know, they say, at least for me at the time, they said, uh, grades, social life and sleep. And you can pick two of those as a college student, except I had a business to add into that, and I could still only pick two. And so I was burnt out. I was tired. I had been working seven years plus school at that point, and I just wanted to be a normal student for, for part of my college. Um, and so I, I sold Free Forums to a public company crowd Gather in, uh, spring of 2010. And that was, that was a big milestone for me. It, it was financially great, but more importantly gave me my time back and I got to really enjoy the last two years at uc.

Grant Freking: (08:14)
What was your overall experience like as a, as a student entrepreneur at this time? Maybe also looking at other things, even be maybe before you an you exited free forums and then maybe after free forums. What did you do with the time? I guess you had left before you got like a, a real job, so to speak.

Phil Santoro: (08:29)
Yeah, it was, it's, it wasn't as glamorous as it sounds talking through it because, um, I was just sort of heads down on the business and grades, so it was definitely challenging, but I would say the ability to apply what I was learning was very cool. And what Lindner gave me was a more structured approach to business. I had the first principles, I, I was running a business, but I didn't know how to read a balance sheet, for example. Mm. And there's actually a, a funny story. Uh, professor Nugent, corporate Finance, incredible class. I learned a lot from it. So we do this project at the end of my senior year where a company's going through a transaction. You have to make a balance sheet, reflect that transaction and model it out in Excel. And I'm, I'm here post Free Forums just wanting to dive in and make the perfect model. I had time, I had the experience of going through an exit. I wanted to work in finance. I'm like, this is it. And I worked for weeks on this. And he, he said at the beginning, he said, balance sheets are called balance sheets because they balance assets have to equal liabilities and equity. If you don't balance your balance sheet, I will give you a zero on this. And some of you will not balance your balance sheet. So he said that over and over and over. I bet you can tell where this is going. I

Grant Freking: (09:54)
Have an incl

Phil Santoro: (09:55)
, so I work on this and I'm getting the perfect model dialed in, and I'm, I'm working very hard. Uh, I get to the, the very last step before I submit it, and I wanna make one tiny change. And after I do that change perfect model, I, I, I feel like on my side, so I submit it, balance sheet doesn't balance. And he was so disappointed. I was, I was more disappointed. Um, but luckily he didn't give me a zero on it, and other students did that, but he, he knew exactly that that would happen. And that's the type of knowledge that you learn in school that now to this day, I look at a lot of balance sheets and I will never ever forget that lesson. Uh, and so having that, that ability to make mistakes and learn from things in school and then apply that later, really gave me that more formal business acumen education that I didn't get running Free Forums.

Grant Freking: (10:54)
Sure. It sounds like Lindner almost helped fill in some of the gaps you didn't have from running a business. What were some, any other examples you can think of of like, you know, I didn't even experience this sort of thing, um, with Free Forums, but I'm experiencing it now in an actual classroom.

Phil Santoro: (11:10)
I'd say all the soft skills. Yeah. Um, you know, I was in student government, director of technology, tried to get involved with campus honors program and all of that. And just when you're online, like I was in my parents' basement on Skype at the time, you don't learn the actual soft skills, leadership, public speaking, just the whole gamut. You don't learn that stuff. So getting that through a different avenue is very important because when you start a company, you have to wear all the hats. Literally, you're wearing all of them until you hire people to do those things. And so, whether it's finance or accounting or BI or business law or public speaking, all of these more soft skills that you don't pick up until you're in a group with people working on them, uh, was very helpful to have.

Grant Freking: (11:59)
Did you know you needed all those skills at the time? Or is it, were you just kind of take them in stride when you kind of learn them?

Phil Santoro: (12:07)
I think one of the benefits of starting young with a business is you don't know what you don't know. Mm. And so you sort of just rush into it and you do it and you don't think too much about it, which I think is actually a good thing because most people overstate the risk, and that's why they don't want to take the leap. So I don't think at the time I was thinking about that until I was in the moment and going, wow. Public speaking, like, this is going to be useful later. Right. Um, so most of that came while I was doing it.

Grant Freking: (12:38)
Were you actively, like, mapping out your future, you know, and thinking like, oh, we'll get to your next step after Lindner here in a second. Were you actively mapping out, like, this is where I wanna be, in your five years after graduation, 10 years after graduation, having, you know, already founded and sold your own company? Were you the type of person that's planning out that far in advance?

Phil Santoro: (12:56)
It's easy to look back at my resume and think that everything just sort of lined up perfectly since I was 12. And that's definitely not what happened. Um, I had wanted to work for Google after I sold Free Forums. My, my sophomore year. I had wanted to work for Google since I was a kid, since I built my first computer. And so finally senior year throw in my application and I waited and I waited and I waited and never heard back, no rejection, just didn't hear back. And, and I thought, well, okay, I guess I'm not going to Silicon Valley. And so I started going down my option B, which was law school. I wanted to work in intelligence for the FBI wanted to get my master's in finance and become a lawyer, which would have increased my odds. And then for reasons I don't really know, I decided to apply for Google again, same job, same role, same application package. Three months after I just had applied and I heard back the next day and, and they flew me to California. I had my interview and ended up getting a job there. And that was, that was a very important lesson for me on just resolve, if you want something just because you're told no, or, or maybe they just ignore you, that doesn't mean that you can't ask again, what's, what's the worst thing that can happen. Once

Grant Freking: (14:18)
You were settled in Google, did you ever bring this story up to anyone about like, Hey, I never heard from you guys the first time and I suddenly, you know, you know,

Phil Santoro: (14:25)
I, I didn't, but having worked there, I know what happened. It's just big company. Yeah. Problems. It, no one, it wasn't even necessarily about me. It was that there were, there weren't roles at that time. They have specific hiring windows, and when they reopened that window, nobody's going back to look at the past applications from the last four months. They're just looking at the applications coming in now, because there's enough of those. So I, I sort of understand how big companies function now, but at the time it was, it was a MiiR it seemed like a miracle.

Grant Freking: (14:58)
Yeah. That's like really pertinent I think, for any students, whether the current or just graduated that are looking for co-ops or Yes, yes. Some jobs is like, just because you hear no, that window still open, you may have another opening. Yeah, absolutely. So you, you go to Google, you spend two plus years as a growth strategist. Is, was this, did the position you ended up being in, in Google, sort of meet your, I guess, personal expectations that you had when you were younger that you, you mentioned you wanted to always be at Google. Did those, did those coalesce at the end?

Phil Santoro: (15:24)
Yes, it was, it was very intimidating, which I wasn't expecting because Google is just operating at a different level of scale than, than any other company, maybe even globally. And so I'm there as a recent graduate managing tens of millions of dollars of ad spend for these advertisers that are growing with Google. And I'm sitting there after I moved across the country from uc, going, why aren't adults doing this job? I mean, seriously, there's tens of millions of dollars. Why, why am I doing this job? And what I realized is sometimes technology is moving so quickly or things are changing that the college graduate that's hungry, willing to grind for 60 hours a week, they are the right people to work on a specific challenge or problem. And I think that's very applicable to the concerns. Now with ai, there's a lot of concerns about AI and, and how will college students and college graduates, you know, fare and in AI first world? And I think the way I think about it is, if you're in college, you graduate and you embrace ai, you, you learn as much as you can. Those are the people that will pave the future, um, just like it was, you know, at the time. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (16:38)
What were some memorable challenges or obstacles that you encountered that sort of, if I, I mentioned that to you, that sort of popped straight to your mind from your time at Google?

Phil Santoro: (16:48)
For me, it was the scale, just everything. Everything was larger. And so you would work on something and the, the stakes were just higher than you were used to or maybe even comfortable with. You really had to be comfortable being uncomfortable and, and just the scale, uh, the ability to learn on the fly, uh, but also know that, you know, millions of dollars were at stake if, if you made a mistake. I think that's, that's a very valuable lesson that I took and then applied it later when, when I went on to start Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (17:22)
When you got to Google, were you, would you say you were already comfortable being uncomfortable or is it something you had to learn?

Phil Santoro: (17:28)
I'd say I'm learning to this day. Every single day. I have to push myself constantly. It's something I try to do is become a lifelong learner and not just feel like, you know, school is over, learning is is done. Now it's time to do. I've tried to be a lifelong learner and I catch myself all the time. It's okay. I know I'm starting from zero. I know that I'm not going to be the best, you know, starting this now type of thing. Um, but I think especially moving across the country, starting a new job, not knowing anyone, I was sort of fully embracing, you know, being uncomfortable.

Grant Freking: (18:05)
Yeah. And so you decided to leave though, you left Google your, yeah. What was then your dream job? Why? Yeah.

Phil Santoro: (18:11)
So Google is an awesome place. I met a lot of incredible people. I met my wife Ruby there. I met my co-founder David. And after about a year and a half, David and I started brainstorming startup ideas, and we would get lunch every Wednesday and just brainstorm ideas for the whole dinner. And finally, after a year of that, we had a problem. We had so many ideas we wanted to work on and start that we couldn't just leave and start one company. And so we decided to leave and start a startup studio, which is a company that builds companies and that would become Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (18:48)
And so what, what do, when you think about the early days of Wilbur Labs and those, during those lunches, what was, what was the thing that bonded the two of you together and like that and that idea?

Phil Santoro: (18:57)
Yeah, so I, I had started Free Forums. I wanted to work, I wanted to start another startup. David had worked for a startup. He knew that he would eventually found a startup. So we sort of came together because of that mutual interest. But then it was really brainstorming these ideas and thinking about people say the AI bubble or the AI phase that we're in started now, but it, it really started back in 20 15, 20 16. That's when we were exposed to automation machine learning that this is taking over every aspect of business. And David and I just saw across the landscape that companies were too risk adverse. They, they weren't adopting automation the way they could. They had these legacy infrastructures or cultures that were holding them back. And we both thought that we could go industry by industry and really take a first principles, the latest technology with the latest best practices, ignore what had been done previously, just think of the problem, how it would be solved today, and build a company for that. We, we felt like that was a great way to start a portfolio.

Grant Freking: (20:07)
So what were the early days like? Were you back in your, um, you know, res I guess collectively maybe mom's basement again? Or how, what was, how was, like, how did Quickly did, were you guys able to scale? How did that happen?

Phil Santoro: (20:18)
Yeah, so we left in 2016 to start Wilbur Labs. We worked on my couch for the first five months. So

Grant Freking: (20:25)
Traded, traded up a

Phil Santoro: (20:26)
Little bit. Yeah, exactly. Traded the basement for a, for an apartment. And, you know, we, we tried to take this process that normally is like bottling lightning is what I call it. That's what entrepreneurs deal with, is they, they try to bottle lightning and get this idea and bring it to market and hope that people want it. There's a, a lot of luck with that process. We wanted to build a systematized, repeatable process where we generate ideas, we research them, we hire people, we go to market, we launch a company, and we're building expertise along that full end to end journey. Um, and to give you one example, vacation renter. So Vacation Renter was one of our earlier companies. We were a small company at the time. And so we would take these offsites just to get away, you know, change of scenery from the city, and we would work in these apar uh, these vacation rentals or hotels with our team. And David and I were the ones booking them. And we just realized what a nightmare it was to book travel. I mean, literally you'd have 50 tabs open Airbnb and Booking and VRBO and hotels.com, and then all the apps on your phone, and you'd have so many tabs open, your computer would start to heat up and the fan would spin like a jet engine. Yep.

Grant Freking: (21:44)
I can, I can relate to that.

Phil Santoro: (21:45)
Yeah. And we thought, this is awful. Why don't we just aggregate everything together, all the hotels, all the rentals in one place. We launched a vacation renter, and it went on to be the fastest growing travel startup ever to reach a billion dollars in gross bookings. And so clearly we were not the only ones that had that problem. And we went on to take that same approach to other industries as well. We have a job list, which is a job search engine. Bark Bus is monetizing health, uh, pet care, largest mobile dog grooming company in the country. So we look for problems that are affecting a lot of people that we feel like we can build a company to solve as simple as possible. You know, going back to my earlier learnings with Free Forums mm-hmm . And, and we look to do that in as many industries as possible.

Grant Freking: (22:34)
Sure. Now, I'm sure you guys have, and back, even back then, when you founded over labs a a decade ago at competition in the sort of what you call, you know, systemized ideas, what sort of, what set you apart in your mind from the competition?

Phil Santoro: (22:49)
Yeah. When it comes to competition, we, we don't think that we have competition in the typical sense because our competition is really anyone who builds a business. So whether it's, you know, a bootstrapper, someone getting VC funding, private equity, I mean, there any, any business out there could be competitive for us. But all of our ideas are sourced internally. We have a, a r and d team internally that is coming up with ideas. We then do the research and diligence ourselves. We hire management teams to come in and help do the research and lead the company. And so we don't really compete with anyone necessarily. What we're competing for are good ideas for businesses. And so that is anyone who's making a business.

Grant Freking: (23:37)
How have the goals of Wilbur Labs changed since you founded the company, if they have at all?

Phil Santoro: (23:43)
I would say the goals are the same. We, we look to turn bold ideas into market leading companies. The tactics have changed a bit, especially with AI the last few years. We're thinking more and more towards being able to create leaner companies. Instead of having to spend one to two years building a company, people are able to get something out to market in three to six months. And so that speed, because it's happening from other companies, you know, we're looking to bring that in-house and get to market with the same speed.

Grant Freking: (24:16)
Does that make your job more stressful?

Phil Santoro: (24:19)
I'd say it's, it's different. It, it, it is both most the most exciting time to build a company ever, just given the opportunities out there. And also the most, um, I'd say the most stressful because you feel like the stakes are higher.

Grant Freking: (24:35)
Yeah. What prepared you for being an employer now that you have your company has grown to the, to the fact that you're a boss of many people now. How, what was, what's that journey been like for you?

Phil Santoro: (24:48)
Yeah, I think sort of working backwards. You know, people want to work at a company that's doing well, that is making an impact beyond just the paycheck, which is very important. But they want to make sure they're doing something. And so one of the principles we've tried to believe from the beginning is to solve real problems. And that's easier said than done. I think there's a lot of very smart people, especially in the Valley, who are building very complicated solutions to problems that nobody really cares about. And it's, it's very easy and tempting to get into that, um, because it's really about the building and, and you, you sort of have this vision for the future, and you want to build to that. And then at the end of the day, nobody cares. And so one of the things we've tried to do from the beginning is just solve real problems. Have our teams work on things that are actually impactful. They can see their work, they can see the impact they're having on others, whether it's dogs getting groomed more fairly, uh, so they don't have to be locked in cages at the, at the groomer, or whether it's helping people find a vacation rental for their family reunion. Being able to just work on cool things that are impactful. It really goes a long ways.

Grant Freking: (26:06)
So it sounds like the entrepreneurship pitch is still being scratched you in this job.

Phil Santoro: (26:10)
Very much so. Every every day is different. That's

Grant Freking: (26:12)
Great. Talk to me about giving back and where this sort of mindset, um, entered your, if it's, maybe it's always been there, um, maybe if it's something recent, but you know, you have some scholarship and, and giving that you do with your alma mater, your various alma mater mad and, you know, Lindner College of Business. So what's the story behind that?

Phil Santoro: (26:34)
So when I first started, I was, I was very young, and so got to see the sacrifices required to start a business. And then the further sacrifice is required to be a student entrepreneur. And so I, I think there's really three, three things I think about. One is entrepreneurship is critical. It's critical for our country. It's critical for the world. I mean, America was built by entrepreneurs. The, the products we use, the services, the jobs that are created, the economic empowerment that comes by people being able to lift themselves up by starting a business that is very powerful, and that's not going away anytime soon. Number two is, it is very challenging to start a, a business when you're young. And I would even say the system pushes against you in a lot of ways. And I don't think we'll necessarily change the system. And so we have to do what we can to help young entrepreneurs push through that.

Phil Santoro: (27:33)
And then the third thing is, I've just seen over the years starting so many companies that the younger you start getting into entrepreneurship, the better. Lots of reasons for that. But, and, and you might not even succeed the first time, but you will get so many lessons, so many learnings that you can then take to your second business when you launch that second company. And so starting earlier is almost always better. So for that reason, I started the Santoro Entrepreneurship Scholarship at Madeira High School in 2018. The entrepreneurship teacher there, Jennifer Jordan is incredible. She has this entrepreneurship class. It, it's always full and people have a, a, there's a wait list for it. There's competitions and, and it is incredible. And so I started giving a scholarship to high school students that are operating a business. And one surprising thing I saw with that, which I wasn't expecting, is that the number of student created businesses increased after my scholarship came online.

Phil Santoro: (28:31)
And it wasn't just because people wanted the money, that was certainly something, but people were just aware for the first time that, Hey, I can start a business in high school. Not only can I, but other students are doing it. And that really empowered students to build businesses. Then I brought that mission to uc and Lindner in 2023 with this inro Family Fund for entrepreneurship, helping student run businesses and funding a pitch competition. And then my wife and I now are researching what it would look like to start a private foundation to bring that scholarship nationally. And so I'd say the goals of all of this is help student entrepreneurs, but also increase awareness that, hey, you don't, you don't need to wait until after you graduate to start a business. You know, this might be your life calling and you can start it while you're in school.

Grant Freking: (29:22)
When you meet, uh, young entrepreneurs, whether they're at Madeira, Lindner or elsewhere around the country these days, what are some of the attributes that kind of come to mind? Do you, when you look at them, do you see a lot of yourself in them, or do you see different, is it a mix? I'm, I'm curious about that.

Phil Santoro: (29:37)
I think one of the great things about entrepreneurship is there isn't a single path. There are so many roads into entrepreneurship. I mean, pro the, a number of combinations. So you definitely don't have to go through a single path. I think the curiosity, sort of willing to take calculated risk. I don't consider myself a risk taker. I think that I take calculated risk and are able to sort of think through different outcomes. But there is some degree of calculated risk that you have to take. But really just a curiosity, desire to learn plus, you know, the ability to do something that isn't easy. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Um, that, that's really what sets young entrepreneurs apart.

Grant Freking: (30:23)
Does the calculated risk play a role in you being a licensed private pilot?

Phil Santoro: (30:27)
It, it does. I've, I've tried to be a lifelong learner, and this was a childhood dream. There's something about being thousands of feet up in the air on top of the world in full control with the freedom that is very hard to articulate just how cool that is. And, and I actually was able to bring some of the aviation learnings to Wilbur Labs, really, and, and aviation. We use checklists and risk risk management as a way to compensate for human error because human errors are fatal in, in aviation, in business not so much. And so a lot of our companies have embraced checklists, which we use for repeated work. So anytime you have something that you need to do more than once, we make a checklist for it. And whoever's doing it goes through the checklist, just like a pilot up at 40,000 feet. And that's made a pretty big difference for our companies.

Grant Freking: (31:21)
Was on your own personal checklist, where did, um, holding a Guinness World record for a fastest time to eat a jam donut with no hands come in .

Phil Santoro: (31:30)
This was another, this was another childhood dream. One of my favorite achievements, uh, I actually as a kid was reading these Guinness World record books. Oh, yeah. Flipping through it. Oh yeah.

Grant Freking: (31:42)
I we're, I'm, we're in the same wavelength here. Did the same

Phil Santoro: (31:44)
Thing, yep. Looking at all the weird things people were doing, . And I said, I have to be in there. Yeah. And I wasn't picky. I couldn't add three feet of height and become the world's tallest man. I had to pick what I could actually beat. And it turns out competitive eating is a unique mix of physical and mental ability, but it's more mental, which, which I enjoy. And so I, I actually tried to beat a world record at uc, fastest time to eat a onion. I failed. I could not get past this onion. Uh, and then, so finally in 2014, decided to try donuts, ate 22 donuts in one week, practicing getting the technique down. beat the world record for fastest time to eat a jelly donut with no hands, 11.4 seconds. And the hilarious thing is that every year there's a national donut day.

Phil Santoro: (32:35)
I don't know if you celebrate June 5th, um, you should add it to your calendar for next. I need to. Yeah. And so every every year national donut date comes across and my record goes viral every few years. And it's been picked up by, um, Newsweek, Yahoo SFGate, business Insider. I was in page 86 of the Guinness World Record 2016 book. And then also in this book called The Mammoth Book of Weird World Records. And the funny thing was, we're launching Wilbur Labs while all of this is going on, and we're trying to get some press for our company launches. And journalists not that interested. There's just, there's a lot of companies that are, are going, uh, and launching. Um, and so on the same point, these same journalists are covering my, my donut record. And, and I'm like, really? Like , but hey, every, everyone loves donuts

Grant Freking: (33:29)
And the marketing that comes along with it, apparently for a new company. Yep. That's right.

Phil Santoro: (33:33)
No matter how many companies I start, people just want to talk about donuts.

Grant Freking: (33:37)
, have you, have you, have you attempted to beat the record anytime lately?

Phil Santoro: (33:40)
I have not, but I, I would, I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. And people ask me all the time, are people trying to beat this? And I say, of course they are. You know, it's, there's only, you can't come up with your own record. It's only the records in the book. Mm. And so there's only 40 or 50 food related records. This is one of them. So I think, uh, I think you should try it. Try it one day.

Grant Freking: (34:02)
Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'll have to . Maybe we can find one of those books and find a record that I can go through. I don't know. Yeah, I definitely don't, couldn't do onions. That's, I don't, yeah, that sounds really tough. Let's make that great transition from, from donuts to closing advice. Um, there are students to listen to this podcast. And I'm curious about, you know, a couple of points that you maybe wanna leave anyone who's made it to the end of this podcast with about, you know, if they're thinking about entrepreneurship, if they're having trouble making that last clearance over that hurdle to like actually wanna start their company. They had the idea. What are some, from your own personal experience, both with starting a company and just being in the business for a while now, you're handful of bits of advice to leave with, you know, current students or maybe even recent graduates with?

Phil Santoro: (34:43)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I wish I had in college was, um, a different perspective on risk and being open to taking more risk. I think I, I objectively took risk, but I think everyone always overstates the risk in their own life. Whether it's starting a company or applying for a job or following up twice because you didn't hear back from someone there. There's a million different risks that, that go on in your life. And for me, what's been helpful later in life is to actually think through what are the downsides if I do this and it actually doesn't happen, or it goes terribly. Um, and it's usually not as bad as you think. And we did a study on why startups fail. We surveyed 300 founders. We did a meta-analysis of all the literature out there on failure. We then combine that with our knowledge and we publish this report on why startups fail. It's been cited in a few different books so far. And one of the things that surprised me is that of the entrepreneurs that experienced failure, 84% said they would do it again. 84% would start another company after going through the worst thing imaginable. And you have to ask yourself if that many people are able to do it again. It's actually not that bad to fail. And I think that applies to everything, not just startups, because

Grant Freking: (36:10)
It what it teaches you about yourself, both personally and I guess professionally

Phil Santoro: (36:13)
Too. Yep. Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (36:15)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.