Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Learning is a lifelong pursuit. Whether you're seeking to level up your skills, pick up a credential or pivot into a new industry, Lindner's graduate program offerings can help you achieve your goals. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. My guests today will shed light on the graduate student experience at Lindner, why they selected Lindner for the next phase of their academic journey, their personal and professional backgrounds, and much more. Let's meet our guests. Lucas Lodato is pursuing a Master's in accounting while Bob Clark is seeking a master's in finance and a graduate certificate in real estate. Lucas and Bob, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Lucas Lodato: (00:41)
How you doing?

Grant Freking: (00:42)
I'm doing great. How are you, Bob?

Bob Clark: (00:43)
Good, good. How are you?

Grant Freking: (00:44)
I'm doing great. I appreciate both of you again for joining me. Now let's get a handle on your respective backgrounds and how you ended up at Lindner. Bob, I'll start with you. You accumulated a great deal of private industry experience before deciding to return to school. Why, why'd you decide to come back?

Bob Clark: (00:59)
Well, yeah, I do have, uh, quite a bit of previous work experience. So I just turned 40, um, my wife when about the same time that we decided to have start a family, um, decided to go to medical school and just, uh, recently she was accepted to a surgery fellowship at UC.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
Awesome.

Bob Clark: (01:23)
And that event kind of gave me the opportunity to, I guess, put my head above water and think, you know, what do I wanna do for the next 20 years? You know, everything had been focused on, you know, surviving, you know, raising the kids, getting dinner ready, making sure that, you know, she could do all her studying and prepare for exams. Um, balancing that with my work, once she matched into a surgery fellowship, I felt like, you know, are we gonna move? Like, what's, what's the best next direction for me? I also have a background in physics and mathematics. So while I knew I loved business, um, I was seeking some sort of a way to pull more of that natural economist back into my day-to-day work life. Ultimately, I just decided to take a sabbatical year and, uh, pursue an MS in finance, sort of to give myself the time to think about how to do that.

Grant Freking: (02:25)
Certainly a non-traditional pathway. We're glad you're here. Lucas, your journey is a bit different as well. After graduating with your BBA in accounting from Lindner, you went straight into the Master's in Accounting program. What was the rationale behind that decision?

Lucas Lodato: (02:37)
Well, mainly it was because KPMG, who I'm, or they're sort of waiting for me, so they, they require you to have 150 credit hours to start as a, as a audit associate. And I didn't really know about the whole 150 credit hour thing until it was sort of too late to either do a double major or anything like that while I was an undergrad. And, you know, once, once I looked further towards it, it was like, okay, well the master's program will help you a lot with getting ready for the CPA exam and just furthering education for things that'll look good on your resume. Um, and you know, I loved it here in undergrad. I had no complaints about the program and, you know, I wanted to stick around for a little while longer. Uh, I got, uh, my girlfriend is a year younger than me. She goes to Ohio University. So like, it all sort of worked out well where we, you know, that way we're all, we're both kind of done with school at the same time now.

Grant Freking: (03:26)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (03:26)
And we could sort of move forward with what we wanna do as a team, you know, as a duo together in the same time span. So it works out, you know, I, I like it here. I didn't want to leave . I wanted one more go around.

Grant Freking: (03:40)
All right. Again, we have, we appreciate you sticking around for another year too, and hopefully, and this, this will be a boon to your professional career as well. And, uh, Lucas, I'll stick with you. Walk me through how you navigate day-to-day life as a graduate student so we can sort of paint a picture for listeners on and potential future students on what it's like to be enrolled in a master's program at Lindner.

Lucas Lodato: (03:58)
Yeah, I mean, it's no different than being an undergrad, really. Um, for me personally, I'm also a graduate assistant, so I have two days a week where I'm in the accounting lab. Uh, it's a great resource for anybody that's looking for help. Um, it's actually something that I didn't really even know about before I became a grad student and started working down there. But, uh, you know, that gives me a lot of time whenever students aren't coming in to help me knock out other work that I have to do either, you know, schoolwork or work for my, um, for my faculty member. But, you know, it's just like any other program. If, you know, if you've gone through undergrad, you're gonna be fine with going through master's. It's just different classes, uh.

Grant Freking: (04:33)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (04:34)
You know, you gotta take 30 credit hours worth of classes, so, you know, you take 15 and 15 or, you know, 12 and 18, however you wanna do it. And it, it's really not too bad. There's a lot of options available, a lot of online, different specialty things. Um, it's, it's really similar to undergrad in my eyes.

Grant Freking: (04:52)
Sure. And Bob, aside from, uh, the children aspect of, of your existence, how is, uh, your day-to-day life as a graduate student, uh, at Lindner? And we spoke off air before we recorded about how you were thinking about doing online, but the tour of the building sort of convinced you to do in person here at Lindner?

Bob Clark: (05:09)
Yeah, I, uh, when I thought about taking a sabbatical to study, um, I looked at different finance programs online. I actually came here and met with the director who gave me a tour of the building. I was explaining earlier, and when I saw the building, I thought, um, like, I have to be here. Uh, this is gonna be a great place to learn. That was a fantastic decision. Um, I love the university environment. Having, you know, spent 10 plus years working out of school. For me, it was exciting just to be free to learn to pursue your thoughts and your curiosities really without constraint. To take the classes that you want to take to be able to, through the exposure to faculty members and all the sort of brilliant people that you find at a university to ask questions, to seek out mentorship, um, that was, that was like a huge draw to me.

Bob Clark: (06:07)
I felt like doing it online, of course you would get some of that, but, um, it, it's hard to replace an in-person experience. Um, as far as like, you know, graduate school, I think, uh, one thing's always stuck out to me. So I went to graduate school at Kelley uh, school of business at IU and my program director there, I, I went there like Lucas right out of undergrad. Um, I'll paraphrase, but essentially what he said to my cohort when we started was, you know, you guys have all been used to being the top student or getting the best grade, being prepared for every exam. And everyone around you, if you look around, has been in that same position. As you move through life, as you progress in your company, you'll only feel that pressure more and more and more. And so our job here, my job, is to sort of get you ready for the real world.

Bob Clark: (07:07)
And in the real world, there's always gonna be someone smarter. There's always gonna be people who are willing to work harder. There's gonna be others who are willing to sacrifice their friends or their family for their career. You'll have too much reading assigned to get it all done. You'll have too many exams to feel totally prepared, and you need to be able to figure out how you are gonna manage your time because when you go out and get a job at a great firm, no one's gonna do that for you. And so you're gonna start to learn how to do that, uh, right now. And I don't know if that's advice or it was just a nugget of wisdom, but, um, it's something that stayed with me for the rest of my life. And I think for some people maybe that creates stress. So graduate school, uh, like college I guess can be a stressful experience, but it's also an exciting experience, one where you feel like you really take on a lot of autonomy and at the end of the day you learn that only you can be held accountable for, you know, what you do and how you use your time.

Grant Freking: (08:15)
Sure. We always appreciate keeping it real, too. Lucas, I'll go back to you. How do you feel about how your master's degree program and accounting in your case is preparing you for the next phase of your career? What sort of real world experience is your program providing to you?

Lucas Lodato: (08:27)
Yeah, I think it's a lot of people teaching along the lines of the, the, the CPA exam. You know, obviously the CPA exam classes that you could take that's alongside with Becker and you can get that taken care of while you're in school. Uh, that was a big attraction to the program for me. It's just actually like forcing myself to study and be on the right track and get a grade for it. Um, and you know, a lot of the professors that are teaching master's programs are people who have been there and done that, you know, hold the credentials and, and can give you that sort of advice to, to get where you want to go. Um, you know, I was fortunate enough to have enough college credits coming outta high school, uh, where I could take a semester off in undergrad here and not be off track.

Lucas Lodato: (09:09)
Um, so I was able to do that internship with KPMG and they wanted to have me back. So, um, definitely do that as an accounting student. If you can, get as many internships in as you can, especially if you could do it during the busy season like I did, if you have enough credits where you could take a semester off, definitely do it. It's, it's a good thing to know as you're going through the rest of your schooling, like, what can I expect once I get out? Do I find a place that it, that I enjoy? Maybe you go into audit and you hate it, maybe you go into tax and you hate it. Right? There's a lot of options for you to go through with, with an accounting degree. Um, and so it's good that while you can find your way before you're more or less sort of stuck in it, you know, and you're, you're.

Grant Freking: (09:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (09:54)
In there full time and you don't have as much flexibility.

Grant Freking: (09:57)
Sure. An accounting co-op, an accounting internship during busy season puts the real, I think, in real world experience.

Lucas Lodato: (10:02)
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Bob Clark: (10:03)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:05)
Bob, what, what about you? What sort of a real world experience would you say you're getting through the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (10:11)
Um, you know, the part of the, what drew me to the finance curriculum was that it was, you know, there's a breadth of classes that you can take. Um, I was naturally interested in investments in portfolio management. I didn't really know how to tie that directly to my previous work experience. So I've worked building startups. I used to work at PricewaterhouseCoopers, um, and I've run and built a construction company over 10 years. But like I said earlier, I kind of have this mathematician, you know, inside of me. And I wanted to feel like, how can I do something more analytic, more quantitative? But that still leverages that experience. It took me a while, uh, but eventually I realized through taking my courses that I was really interested in alternative investments, and I discovered real estate as an investment asset class that would allow me to, you know, sort of leverage my experience in construction and marketing and business in general with, you know, what I had interest in finance, you know, analyzing and thinking about a deal so I could sort of, you know, whether it's new development or a value add transaction. I realized that real estate, you know, sort of provided me this opportunity to leverage everything I've done and couple it with some new found sort of finance skills.

Bob Clark: (11:34)
That's when, um, I decided to add the real estate certificate at Lindner. And so I feel like that has, you know, totally prepared me, you know, to move on. I think there are a number of roles that, you know, I can pursue now that I I, I either wouldn't have known were available to me, uh, or I wouldn't have even thought about.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
Sure.

Bob Clark: (11:58)
So I feel like it's really given me a very clear vision about what the opportunities are that I have in front of me.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Sure. Now, neither of you are native Cincinnatians. Bob, I'll start with you. How do you find living Cincinnati and the UC campus in general?

Bob Clark: (12:14)
Um, so for, for all the listeners, uh, I grew up in Indiana, so I'm a Hoosier. Um, I moved to Cincinnati, so close to Indianapolis. I spent a lot of time in Bloomington, lived in Indianapolis a couple of times. Um, I came to Cincinnati periodically growing up, mostly to watch Reds games. Um, had an uncle, still do, that lives here. Uh, but I always thought of Cincinnati, even when I worked at PWC and had clients here, I just thought of another city like Indianapolis or like Columbus. It wasn't till my wife and I with our kids moved here a few years ago, uh, that I realized that Cincinnati's a really unique place. Um, it's a older city and it's more of a federation of lots of little towns sort of clumped together into one city. Indianapolis and Columbus, they, they have their different, you know, areas, but they feel much more homogeneous. Cincinnati has a lot of personality and a lot of character, a lot of old buildings. You sort of get a sense as you drive through town that you're traveling through all these different, unique places. So to me, uh, that was something that surprised me and I really enjoyed, I think Cincinnati has a certain cosmopolitan feel, maybe if you want to call it that, that some of it's the cities that it's often compared to, in my experience, don't have. So, uh, that's been great. I, I love Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (13:45)
That's great. Yeah. As someone who grew up in the suburb of Cincinnati, I wasn't even aware of all the different character between the neighborhoods until I actually moved within city limits. And it is fascinating to get that picture and you can just almost tell just driving through the different neighborhoods, as you mentioned, Bob, of the different identities that each of the neighborhoods have. What about you, Lucas? What have you, what have you learned through your time here?

Lucas Lodato: (14:04)
Yeah, I, I, my family's originally from Long Island, New York. Then we moved to Cleveland for the majority of my childhood growing up. Uh, I lived on the west side of Cleveland in the suburbs. And then when came time for school to, for college, I visited a couple schools, didn't really, didn't really enjoy them. And then I came down here and I remember on my visit, like being able to like walk onto the football field. And that being like, that's really crazy to me. , like, how cool is that? Um, and so when I committed to come here, it wasn't, I didn't really know much about the city, you know, growing up, you're four hours away from it. Everybody in Cleveland says, oh, Cincinnati, it's just part of Kentucky, basically, you know, there's nothing down there. Uh, and then you actually move down here and you're on campus and you sort of broaden your horizons a little bit outside of Clifton in this area. And you realize like there's some really cool stuff around like that Cleveland doesn't have like. And I'm not like a Cleveland for life or like a lot of people from up there are, you know, I, I find my allegiance more towards New York anyway. 'cause it's where my, you know, my family all grew up.

Grant Freking: (15:12)
You are wearing a Yankee hat.

Lucas Lodato: (15:12)
I am wearing a Yankee hat today. Yeah. A big Yankee fan. Um, but I have merit, that's what a lot of people try to give me , you know, stuff for, for being a Yankee fan. But I'm like, I was born my, my birth certificates to the city of New York on it.

Grant Freking: (15:26)
But it appears you do have like, at least a soft spot now for Cincinnati, having moved here for a couple of years.

Lucas Lodato: (15:29)
Oh, absolutely. I'm not, I don't plan on leaving here. Uh, you know, I'd mentioned my girlfriend, she goes to Ohio University, and every time I go visit there, I'm like, there's nothing to do here. It's like, there's nothing wrong with Athens. I love it there, but like, whenever we we're here, it's like there's, we could do so many things. There's so much stuff around, and there's still a lot more to learn. I'm starting to get a little more comfortable with things inside the 275 loop. You know, I'm trying to.

Grant Freking: (15:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (15:55)
Sort of understand where everything's at, and I have a few ideas on where I wanna move after I'm graduated. But, um, you know, I'm excited to at least start my career here. And, um, yeah, I love it here. It's, it's a great place. I don't really plan on leaving unless if the wind takes us somewhere else, but.

Grant Freking: (16:12)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (16:12)
You know, I, I love it here. I don't plan on leaving.

Grant Freking: (16:15)
Sure. We'll close with some recommendations that each of you would give to students considering graduate school at Linder. And Lucas, I'll double up with you and say, what would you recommend to undergrad students since you have that experience as well, but also to graduate students, maybe specific, specifically wanting to pursue the MS accounting program.

Lucas Lodato: (16:32)
Yeah, I found it, you know, super helpful. Like, it, it's been an enjoyable time. It hasn't been like super crazy. You know, I had a lot of anxiety coming in, not knowing about like, how much are these graduate classes gonna really throw me for a loop here? I've, you know, I didn't get to take any undergrad or graduate classes while I was an undergrad. You know, I sort of traded that off for the internship a semester, which I don't regret. Um, but I didn't really know what to expect. Um, I didn't really know anybody coming in. I've made a lot of friends along the way now since we're all, you know, it's just a group of, you know, 10 to 15 of us.

Grant Freking: (17:08)
Yeah.

Lucas Lodato: (17:08)
All in the same sort of classes. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you're thinking about wanting to broaden your horizons, if you're thinking about wanting to, you know, give yourself that extra step. I know now with the CPA requirements in Ohio going down 120 starting next year, that, you know, the, the people like me who need to get to 150 but only graduate undergrad with 120 are sort of going away.

Lucas Lodato: (17:33)
But I would still highly recommend coming to the master's program. It's a, it's a great experience. There's a lot of actual specific, you know, you can indulge into a lot more like specific topics. Um,

Grant Freking: (17:47)
You customize your education.

Lucas Lodato: (17:48)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I, uh, I think it's a great experience. I don't, I don't have anything against it at all.

Grant Freking: (17:57)
Great. Bob, what about you, you, again, we've, we've sort of emphasized your sort of non-traditional background, but what about, I guess, stood out to you that made you wanna pick Lindner besides, I guess the, the proximity and, you know, uh, what advice would you give to students considering the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (18:15)
Um, I, I guess this would, would be relevant to students interested in MS Finance, but graduate school in general, um, having, having worked, um, what, what you realize when you leave school is that you leave the dozens or hundreds of faculty that you essentially have free access to as a student.

Grant Freking: (18:39)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (18:40)
Uh, you also feel like when you say study finance, whatever your degree track is, you feel like you're very specialized. And what you realize when you start working is that you don't really know what specialization is yet. Uh, in your work life, you start to work with a group of people who are very focused on like a small set of things within the universe of business. And when you're in school as an undergrad or a graduate student, you have the opportunity, sort of to echo what Lucas was saying, to really customize and to think broadly about what you want to do.

Bob Clark: (19:20)
So it's really a unique learning experience that you are not gonna get anywhere else. You know, you could learn a lot about, you know, fixed income at a bank or risk management working for somebody, but you're not gonna have the chance to sort of build a full view of, say, the financial industry, the full view of all the investment possibilities, um, at a firm that works in a niche or at a bank. You know, you're gonna have to go to grad school, uh, if you want to do that. Um, so I would say if you, if know, love that, if you love learning, if you're really curious, um, if you like to be in school, then I would say it's, it's great. Um, obviously like Lucas, if you have a very specific thing that you have to go to grad school, .

Grant Freking: (20:09)
mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:10)
To get, then you should, you should probably be wise and do that.

Grant Freking: (20:12)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:13)
Um, but yeah, I, I would just say, you know, grad school's a gift. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do and, uh, it should be taken advantage of, uh, by those who are interested in it.

Lucas Lodato: (20:25)
Yeah. And I, I think like, you should do it while you can, while it's fresh, like when you come outta undergrad, if you can. But also, I mean, I think Bob and I are really good examples of the two totally different, you know, sorts of students that are here. You know, a lot of my classes are sort of later evening or in the nighttime, you know, you have the once a week, three hour night classes, and you look around and you see a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life, you know, coming in and maybe they're just taking one or two classes, but it's like part of continuing professional education, or they're just trying to get their master's degree. But you see a lot of people that are coming in and doing it at night or that, that have a couple days a week where they can come in and take classes.

Lucas Lodato: (21:03)
And it actually, it really helps you like broaden your, your sort of contact portfolio there where you can meet a lot of people with backgrounds in industry.

Grant Freking: (21:13)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (21:14)
And start to get connections and, and, and, you know, your network grows that way. And I found that very interesting. Or it's not like, you know, when you're in undergrad, you're used to seeing classrooms of 150 people that are all in the same thing as you, especially in like the Lindner core classes. Whereas in grad school, I think the most people that I've had in one class so far is like 15 or 20 maybe for the, for the, um, capstone class so far. There's really not that many people. You can have a very personal experience with your faculty member in each of your classes. Um, and I found that very valuable, you know, to actually get to know these people and what they've done and hear their experience and actually get more of a, you know, tailored education towards you since there's so few people in each of your classes. It's been, it's been really cool.

Grant Freking: (22:05)
Excellent. My thanks to Lucas Lodato and Bob Clark for joining me today to shed light on the graduate student experience at the Lindner College of Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. His research has been published in many journals, including Sage Business Cases, the Journal of Organizational Behavior Education, the Journal of Small Business and Enterprise Development, and the Journal of Business Research. Now, in addition to his work at UC, Dan serves in the US Army Reserves as an adjunct instructor for the Command and General Staff Officer Course.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Vicki Buckley is a senior instructional designer at Lindner, a PhD student in educational studies at UC, and an adjunct instructor in UC's College of Education, Criminal Justice, Human Services and Information Technology, working with pre-service teachers. Vicki's professional and research interests include amplifying student voice through course design and creating vibrant communities and online courses. Welcome and take it away, Dan and Vicki.

Vicki Buckley: (00:56)
Thanks, Grant.

Dan Peat: (00:56)
Yeah, thanks.

Vicki Buckley: (00:57)
We're glad to be here.

Dan Peat: (00:59)
So let's just start with the basics of what is SOTL? What is the scholarship of teaching and learning? So it's a, you know, this is something that I've gotten into more and more. I took on the educator position back in 2020, so I really started to, get into this idea of pedagogy and andragogy and things like that. But it's a little bit more than that. So, Vicki.

Vicki Buckley: (01:21)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (01:22)
How, how would you describe SOTL as the, the education expert?

Vicki Buckley: (01:25)
Yeah, I've got a couple of different ways to explain it. So, SOTL is a form of inquiry around teaching and learning. It's usually around one's own classroom, and students, but, you know, you can partner with others, it could be cross-disciplinary, and it's, it's an outlet for new knowledge creation and also a place to learn new pedagogies to try out in the classroom. So, as an instructional designer, I reach to SOTL when I wanna try and figure out how to help a faculty member do something in a different way. The big thing is that it's, it's research and application. So it's, it's two sides of that. I have a fun quote from a SOTL adjacent book that I'm reading that I wanna share about SOTL. So this is a book from Jessamyn Newhouse, she's one of my faves. So she describes SOTL, in this way. So teaching offers us an infinite number of puzzles, problems and research questions. And an abundant SOTL offers us endless avenues for identifying, exploring, and discussing those questions and problems. So we notice things when we're teaching and we have these problems and puzzles, and SOTL gives us an opportunity to dig in, dive deep and kind of sort through them.

Dan Peat: (02:31)
Man, I felt every bit of that quote, .

Vicki Buckley: (02:33)
Yeah, Yeah. Absolutely.

Dan Peat: (02:34)
So I teach somewhere in the neighborhood of like 240 students any given semester. So it's, you know, it's always a challenge to, to, to figure out what are the problems, are they getting it? How do we get them to get it better?

Vicki Buckley: (02:45)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Peat: (02:45)
And then in addition to that, I've always got these adult learners, the army too, that, that are also interested in it. So I think we've got some experiences here too, of how we've worked together as instructional designer faculty and you know, how, how to coordinate on those. But, I think Vicki said it best when she said, trying to figure out a problem for a faculty member in the classroom is one avenue that it, that it comes up. Another avenue is the instructor has an idea and wants to, take it forward. And how do we align this with best practices when it comes to the, the learning objectives of the course and things like that.

Dan Peat: (03:25)
So I found this gee whiz neat article I want to use in class. How does that relate to the class? And, you know, I, we can walk through this with an example. So a few years ago when we went online for Covid, I had this great first day activity in business strategy. And, if you remember this one.

Vicki Buckley: (03:43)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (03:44)
It was having them, create a business using paper. So they're throwing paper at each other and building an industry out of it. And there's no way to mimic that online. So what I, I reached out to Vicki a few days before the class, and I think in the span of two days, we created a whole new exercise around creating crossword puzzles mm-hmm . And selling the crossword puzzles to different teams in the class. And I think I came with just an idea, right?

Vicki Buckley: (04:12)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (04:12)
That was, that was it. And, I, I still remember the very first thing you asked me was what were the learning objectives of the last activity?

Vicki Buckley: (04:20)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (04:20)
And then how do we build it out? So that's kind of how we, how we, approached that one in, in one of the classes. So, and, and this is the faculty side, but it's not just important for faculty. So, I mean, students are also a part of this too.

Vicki Buckley: (04:35)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (04:36)
And, I can honestly say it's kind of cool. I've published with several of my students.

Vicki Buckley: (04:40)
Oh, nice.

Dan Peat: (04:41)
Now at this point, I think we've got three or four publications with undergrad students, case studies, exercises, things like that. And there's also a student role in them providing it back to us too, of giving us feedback and helping us craft these.

Vicki Buckley: (04:58)
So, Dan, can you talk a little bit about your experience with SOTL and what it looks like comparative to, traditional education research, or non-business disciplines?

Dan Peat: (05:06)
Yeah. This has been, kind of an interesting one. so if I dig into different literature that are out there and different scholarships on there, some of the other ones may not always have this organizational focus.

Vicki Buckley: (05:18)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (05:18)
So the, the business side is always gonna come back to how is this improving in their organization? Or how are we teaching our students skills for their future working careers? Some other fields may be more focused on how do we make society better? Things like that.

Vicki Buckley: (05:34)
Mm. Yeah.

Dan Peat: (05:35)
But we, in the business school, we have to, we always have this focus of, we have to make our students better at business. And I can compare and contrast this a little bit with like the adult learners I work with, where trying to teach somebody leadership in the context of a military setting has a lot of crossover and similarities to business students, but it's not a one for one.

Vicki Buckley: (05:55)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (05:55)
And it's adjusting and always keeping that business focus in mind, kind of in the background. So, and we talked a little bit about how students aren't just the ones that are participating in it too. They're, they're a big part of the collaboration.

Vicki Buckley: (06:10)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (06:12)
And their feedback is kind of how we improve new teaching methods. This semester I'm trying out a debate in my, design thinking, ethics and inclusion classes. And part of that is, that's been asked for, for several years by my students.

Vicki Buckley: (06:26)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (06:26)
Yeah. They, they asked, we should do a debate on this. We should, you know, you have the structured reflection discussions we do, you should do a debate.

Vicki Buckley: (06:34)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (06:35)
And it's funny because when I was having 'em sign up for the presentations, the first class, the two weeks, I have debates, nobody signed up for those to the very end.

Vicki Buckley: (06:43)
Oh, geez.

Dan Peat: (06:43)
So, of course. but then when I was talking to 'em afterwards, they were really, really excited about it. And this is really how students can express their voice back to the instructors and instructional design. And again, that, that symbiotic relationship. I get my course evals and I can share them with instructional design. Hey, this is what I'm seeing. What can I do to improve going forward? So, I don't know that, that's kind of a question. So I've, I've come to you, I've come to, to Becky before, if I get a negative comment, Hey, this is not working in the class, how would you as instructional design help me kind of fix, like, this isn't working.

Vicki Buckley: (07:20)
Yeah. So there are many, many different ways. I think that's one of the beauties of SOTL in general, is like, there's not one linear path to teach well, to create an impactful learning experience. And honestly, sometimes like those negative comments from students, they're still learning.

Dan Peat: (07:36)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (07:37)
Even though they didn't enjoy the experience. Like, there's still some benefit there. So I've got two, two kind of thoughts on this. So sometimes it just comes down to making your, your pedagogy visible for students. So maybe you got that negative feedback or that comment because they didn't, the students didn't truly understand the purpose of why you did things a certain way. So it could be as simple as running the same activity or, or running, you know, your class the same way, but just framing it differently and, and letting students know, this is why I'm doing this, and this is the benefit to you.

Dan Peat: (08:13)
That's a good argument for sharing the learning objectives with the students.

Vicki Buckley: (08:16)
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. you know, and sometimes those learning objectives, are easy to breeze past.

Dan Peat: (08:23)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (08:23)
Because you think it's just like another thing. But really connecting those dots for students sometimes helps. The other thing is, I, I would say let's reach into the SOTL research and do some digging and see what other folks have been doing. 'cause again, that's that application piece. It's not just sharing what you did, but it's sharing it with the intent of helping someone else or helping other students or, or garnering feedback from your students so that somebody else can apply it in their own context. So that's probably where I would start. My, my favorite thing about being an instructional designer is kind of that hypothesis testing. So like, let's try something different.

Dan Peat: (08:57)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (08:57)
For that next semester. so that's always an option too. It's just like making little tweaks to see how we can nudge, the learning or student response in one way or another.

Dan Peat: (09:06)
Yeah. I'm a big fan of that, like, trying stuff up differently to see how it can be received differently as well.

Vicki Buckley: (09:10)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (09:11)
Yeah, and just keeping it in mind, the broader audience too. Like, there's a lot of stakeholders involved.

Vicki Buckley: (09:18)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (09:18)
And, you know, we don't want to ignore the business partners, the people that are hiring our students, or the people that are quite often paying a lot of money for our students to be here.

Vicki Buckley: (09:28)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (09:29)
So kind of what's the benefit to parents? What's the benefit to, to external businesses, and I'll, I'll kind of take that second question myself, but how do you see like a benefit to parents of students seeing the SOTL and the faculty doing SOTL?

Vicki Buckley: (09:44)
Yeah. I, I think it, it goes back to that reflection piece of SOTL. So with the scholarship of teaching and learning, the idea is that the instructor reflects on an experience and then they share and kind of close the loop. But I think that's, that's there for students too. We know students learn best when, when they have an opportunity to reflect on what they did and communicate that out. And I think that's something, hopefully, that our students are sharing with their families is, I, I did this thing. I did experiential learning this semester in my business course, and this is how it changed me as a student. Or like, this is how I'm thinking about my job at the rec center because I see this connection when I'm doing x, y, z task. So I definitely think, for family members and for, stakeholders in general, like, students are better able to articulate what they're doing and, and our stakeholders can then ask more questions to our students.

Dan Peat: (10:40)
Absolutely. And that goes hand in hand with how the businesses, the business partners that are hiring our students get the benefit to.

Vicki Buckley: (10:46)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (10:46)
Because they know if the faculty are doing evidence-based learning.

Vicki Buckley: (10:50)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (10:50)
And they're using SOTL to get the best ideas out in the best way. It's not just some esoteric theory that I'm teaching.

Vicki Buckley: (10:58)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (10:58)
You know, X leads the y it's, I'm teaching the theory and they're experiencing it, and they're building both the tactile and the, the, the mental skills that go hand in hand. So it's one thing to say, I understand how X leads the Y now they actually have experienced how X leads the Y.

Vicki Buckley: (11:17)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (11:18)
So that our business partners know when they're getting students from here, maybe they don't have the work experience, but they have experienced these problems and these tasks 'cause the faculty are building out the best options for them. So I think that's a huge benefit.

Vicki Buckley: (11:32)
. And we also in Lindner, I think we are fairly unique. we have such a close relationship with a lot of our, our local business partners and some national ones as well, that we get a lot of feedback through our career services or other folks who come to our classrooms. So we know what, what questions they have and what they want our students to learn. And we can kind of shape our experiences in a way that benefits both those stakeholders but the students too. So it's like a very reflective, reflexive process of, of learning here.

Dan Peat: (12:04)
Absolutely. And if that's not enough motivation to do it.

Vicki Buckley: (12:06)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (12:06)
The college has recognized the importance of it. So now it's actually part of faculty reappointment, promotion and tenure to do SOTL research as part of a total package. And especially for the teaching faculty, that's a huge component of it. 'cause you should be getting better. You should be if you, if you have all these touch points with students, you know, start getting better. And, and I see, and this is another argument for doing it, is I see a lot of faculty that have these really cool, really innovative tools and, and processes and projects and case studies and all this stuff they bring into the class and they don't share it with other people.

Vicki Buckley: (12:43)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (12:44)
And SOTL is like the best way to share it with others.

Vicki Buckley: (12:48)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (12:48)
And, and I know I kind of just went through all of those different examples, but I think that's probably the next section is what is the different types of SOTL? So that's kinda the baseline, right? Yeah.

Vicki Buckley: (13:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so Dan, can you share, I know we talked a little bit earlier about what we did during Covid, but do you have other examples of a teaching exercise or case that you've developed as part of your SOTL work?

Dan Peat: (13:13)
Yeah, absolutely. Anytime I develop something for a class, I always try to think forward of how can I share this outside? And, and I know it's happening, I actually wrote a case study with with a doctoral student, Olivia Anger here, and one of our, advisors, Jen Lewis. And that case study is published.

Vicki Buckley: (13:34)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (13:34)
It's on mental health in the first year. And we had two, stories for a, for a couple students up in the northeast. That one was struggling with just the course load at an engineering school and not keeping up and, and started having some, some, issues with that. And the other one actually had an acute mental health episode.

Vicki Buckley: (13:54)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (13:55)
And we published that case study, and now that's being used at the University of Maine's Business School and their first year to teach their students.

Vicki Buckley: (14:02)
Nice.

Dan Peat: (14:02)
So that's kind of one example of a, of a case study.

Dan Peat: (14:06)
I, I teach leadership and I'm always looking for cool new leadership exercises.

Vicki Buckley: (14:12)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (14:16)
And this is one that I've been working on. This one, it's been under review for a little while where, they have to work on different roles in a team and do a task. And they have roles like the social loafer who's just playing on their phone the whole time.

Vicki Buckley: (14:30)
Gosh.

Dan Peat: (14:31)
the devil's advocate who's, arguing with every single thing that comes up. They want to, they wanna push back on it, and they still have to do this task, and then they're planning a trip. And it's just a really good experience for the different kind of people that they're gonna run into.

Vicki Buckley: (14:46)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (14:46)
On teams and the leaders trying to keep this all together. So I've done exercises, I've done case studies, there are, like lectures and things like that, that, that surround it. Yeah. So those are, those are some of the examples. So, so once we got that, and I've, I've mentioned this a couple times, what, what is the difference between pedagogy and andragogy? That's kind of a, an important thing to come back to.

Vicki Buckley: (15:10)
Yeah. So pedagogy and andragogy are ways to approach teaching. Pedagogy is typically for younger children around K-12 and andragogy is focused on adult learning. In higher education, we tend to teach with pedagogical practices. So there's, there's a set, it's not like it's an official list, but there are ways that we approach teaching and learning. And we tend to focus more on a pedagogical lens in higher education. We are teaching, young adults, you know, 18 to 22 ish. But definitely we want to start considering some anagogical principles as well. With pedagogy, it's focused more on, instructors supporting students along the way. So there might be more, supports or assistance. It's, it's not self-directed. It's, it's very much, the instructor will lead you in a particular direction. But with andragogy, especially with, with older adults, and maybe you've experienced this more, it's, it's more open, learning needs to be connected to specific tasks. You need to see the purpose. You have the opportunity to create meaning and ways that are important to you. So it's, it's more open-ended and that tends to support, our older students or older adults when they're learning.

Dan Peat: (16:29)
And I think that's an important distinction too, when we're doing SOTL to keep that in mind of.

Vicki Buckley: (16:33)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (16:33)
Which framework you really want to, work towards. And I've done exercises and, and case studies and things that work for both.

Vicki Buckley: (16:42)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (16:44)
But, you know, some, sometimes it just doesn't. And yeah, just keeping that distinction in mind is, is kind of important. And, and, and coming back to these different types of case studies and how students can, can be involved in this. Yeah. Uc has the undergraduate scholarly showcase. Yeah. And I'm always really sad to see the business school is very underrepresented there. I've seen maybe four presentations from business students. Half of 'em were my students.

Vicki Buckley: (17:12)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (17:12)
So it's, it'd be nice to see more undergrads from Lindner over there showing, Hey, business research is a real thing, and this is the kind of scholarship of teaching and learning that we're doing in Lindner.

Dan Peat: (17:24)
Yeah. So I had one student that presented on an ethical lapse that a, a teacher had and ended up resigning and, and everything went into that. That was a case study. I've also had a student present on a vignette exercise I was using in my ethics course of a, of an ethical dilemma.

Vicki Buckley: (17:39)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (17:40)
And we actually have some student data of how they react to that. And they're analyzing that and giving some feedback. And we're, we're gonna take that one forward for publication.

Vicki Buckley: (17:48)
Great.

Dan Peat: (17:48)
So it's really cool because these students come out of their undergrad education with a publication.

Vicki Buckley: (17:55)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (17:55)
They are published authors. I have one that's probably gonna have two case studies by the time they graduate. So I think that one's pretty awesome.

Vicki Buckley: (18:02)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (18:02)
And I think that has some pretty important meaning to parents too. Like, this is the kind of innovations that your students are doing. It's not just the faculty here, the, the students are co-creating, like we talked about with those teaching methods.

Vicki Buckley: (18:15)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (18:16)
And we talk about this in the army, they always leave it a better place for those in the future.

Vicki Buckley: (18:21)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (18:21)
That's what they're doing for future students and how they, they can, play that.

Vicki Buckley: (18:27)
So for the undergraduate scholarly showcase, it, it gives students the opportunity to use other skills. So not only is the researching there, obviously, but they get to present and share out. So it's a little bit of public speaking, a little bit of critical thinking and being on your toes if you're asked questions you're not prepared for or you didn't know. So I absolutely think that these opportunities give students different ways to flex their skills, and practice for when they are in an internship or their first professional opportunity, which ultimately benefits our partners.

Dan Peat: (18:58)
Yeah. And I think, one of the other things with that too is that, there's an opportunity there for a business to get a decision point out there.

Vicki Buckley: (19:06)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (19:07)
And have students evaluate it.

Vicki Buckley: (19:08)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (19:09)
And I had this conversation with somebody who, wants to remain anonymous, but they've asked me to write an anonymized case study, and I'm doing that with a student now. Change the industry, change the company, but keep the decision the same.

Vicki Buckley: (19:20)
Oh.

Dan Peat: (19:20)
And this person wants all the analysis that the students do and anything else. And I'm gonna feed that to this, this person as a way of getting some, you know, analysis on, on what a company could do. Yeah. And we've got a lot of local companies that it's a good way to get their name out there. Now part of that is probably shouldn't write something negative about that company if you're gonna partner with somebody.

Dan Peat: (19:46)
But this is a, a good way if somebody's willing to allow their name to be on a case study or a project to see, to expose themselves to the students. Yeah. And to get kind of the student's feedback and analysis on those, on those cases. I'll never forget my, my intro to management class when I was in college, the faculty member had us analyze this company and then had the CEO of the company in there for our final projects.

Vicki Buckley: (20:12)
Oh, geez.

Dan Peat: (20:13)
Oh, yeah. And we were, we were definitely throwing some barbs and daggers about the decisions that were made.

Vicki Buckley: (20:19)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (20:20)
And that CEO took a lot of notes and he gave us some ribbing, but it was such a great experience and, and to meet this person and, and to do that. And I've always kept that in mind when I'm designing these. So I talked before, like, you do this stuff and you keep it in a vacuum and nobody sees it. So what's our outlets? So how do, how do we get it outside the walls of Lindner?

Vicki Buckley: (20:41)
Yeah. The, there are many, many ways. And Lindner has some great, well, I think we'll talk about it later, but Lindner has some great, opportunities to share SOTL work as well. there are a lot of journal publications that, produce just SOTL works. So, within discipline. So you can look discipline specific, business specific, management specific, you know, you could drill down as as finely as you want. There are a lot of, publications that are books. So I mentioned my favorite SOTL adjacent books. So there's a lot of narrative writing you could do if you don't necessarily want to, produce a work that's like a journal article. you can write something more narrative and not casual, but, more accessible for folks. So you could be reading that, you could be writing that. And then there's a couple conferences that are nearby that we both have gone to for many, many years. So the Lily conference, the annual Lily Conference on Teaching and learning is at Miami University. It's the original Lilly Conference, . There are many different, Lilies that you could attend, but the one up the road is, is very great. And then we also have the LT, so learning, learning technology at UC conference, which happens every spring. So those are great. low cost, low to no cost opportunities to, get your feet wet with what's going on at local. so venues.

Dan Peat: (22:09)
Yeah. And if anybody's looking at how to try to find those.

Vicki Buckley: (22:12)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (22:15)
Google Scholar's a great place to look, or ebsco, which is our, our, search engine that we have on our library is a good one. Like you said, discipline specific, almost every discipline, if you search Journal of Discipline Education Yeah. There's one there.

Vicki Buckley: (22:28)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (22:29)
So I've published in the Journal of Organizational Behavior Education and the Journal of International Business Education. And, and they're, they're good publications to get it out there. That's their sole focus. Some different journals will require data of evidence that the teaching, mechanism has improved learning, things like that. and that can be quantitative or qualitative data in most cases. Some journals will take, it based entirely on a conceptual, as long as you're arguing how you've used it in the past. I've got one under review at a journal like that where it's, they, they, they don't want data.

Dan Peat: (23:07)
In fact, they specifically prohibit it, but you have to explain how you've used it in your classroom and, and show it evidence by arguments of how it's worked well. So that's on the journal side, and I think that's like the, the, the best way to get it out there. But those conferences are so good.

Vicki Buckley: (23:22)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (23:22)
And they're, especially LT at UC is, it's kind of low hanging fruit for us here at Lindner because it's a, it's an internal conference.

Vicki Buckley: (23:31)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (23:31)
And most of the audiences other faculty at UC. Yeah. And I know you and I have presented there. We've, we've done other presentations and then a lot of our, our, field specific conferences, like the Academy of Management Conference has a teaching and learning component to it too.

Vicki Buckley: (23:49)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (23:49)
And getting involved in that. So, I got a question for you.

Vicki Buckley: (23:52)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (23:52)
What advice would you give to faculty members that are gonna try SOTL for the first time? Yeah.

Vicki Buckley: (23:58)
I would say, I have a whole list here, but, the first is like, start small. You don't have to make it a big thing. it is a systematic process of inquiry. So there are connections to the literature and educational theory that you wanna be paying attention to, but you can engage in SOTL and like, not publish in a top tier journal, like.

Dan Peat: (24:17)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (24:19)
The act of going through SOTL and being reflective and reflexive and sharing your work in, you know, maybe an informal way I think is still just as valid, and might be more accessible to you based on your time. The library here at UC has a great SOTL guide. So does, our CETL so Center for Excellence and Teaching and Learning, they have, some great resources for getting started, or if you're nervous about the literature review or you don't know how to connect this thing that you did, that's great to educational theory.

Vicki Buckley: (24:49)
They've got some help guides to help you make those connections. I think reading a lot of SOTL research is helpful so you can kind of get the feel for the flow and the vibe. And then, here in Lindner, I've got two specific suggestions. So in the summer we have our communities of practice and also our Lindner teaching fellows in the summer. So those are opportunities to engage in SOTL work. There's no, you don't have to publish as a part of those, those opportunities, but I think it's a good way to get started and get your feet wet. And then my last one is just to find a buddy who's already engaged in SOTL work at UC. So Dan, I know Natalia Mintchik is also pretty, well published in, in the SOTL research. So finding somebody who has done it before, I think is a great way to, you know, kickstart your own process.

Dan Peat: (25:36)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as a, as an instructor, when we pick up, again, these, these tools and these exercises that exist is looking beyond just the exercise and the tool itself and looking at what went into creating it and what went into the backbone, what were the learning objectives. And as you read that understanding, I think that helps us to frame it going forward if you want to do it yourself. And then I always recommend talk instructional design because.

Vicki Buckley: (26:01)
oh yeah.

Dan Peat: (26:01)
they know this, this research, they know what they're doing in this area.

Vicki Buckley: (26:05)
Hey, thanks.

Dan Peat: (26:05)
And they're kind of our experts in this. And I, I don't think I would've been as successful as I have been without having some of our awesome instructional designers there with us.

Vicki Buckley: (26:14)
Thanks, Dan.

Dan Peat: (26:15)
and I, and I wanna talk a little bit about collaborating across departments too, because I think this is an important one.

Dan Peat: (26:20)
I have a another case study that's under review right now that has a very heavy information systems and legal component to it. So I worked with a lawyer who, was a former instructor at another university and who also is really heavy in the information space. So we're bringing in information systems theory.

Vicki Buckley: (26:41)
Mm.

Dan Peat: (26:41)
And legal theory. And I'm bringing, bringing in the ethics and the human resources theory. And we're writing a case study about using ai, as a recruiting tool at, a major company.

Vicki Buckley: (26:51)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (26:51)
And just being able to see those connections, I think is, is a really beneficial way to show people even outside and to teach our students, like, look, you're taking all these different courses, but they're all interconnected.

Vicki Buckley: (27:04)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (27:04)
They're not like one-offs.

Vicki Buckley: (27:05)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (27:05)
And especially when we get into some of the, the BA courses like design thinking, ethics, inclusion and business or business Strategy or foundations in the first year, to show how there's cross departmental, coordination on these SOTL projects, I think is very, very important.

Vicki Buckley: (27:23)
Mm-hmm . I also wanna echo that. I think in the past couple years, now that we're back from covid, some departments have started doing brown bags.

Dan Peat: (27:31)
mm-hmm .

Vicki Buckley: (27:33)
around SOTL like topics. I would love if those were more widely shared so that we could all start seeing, what other folks are doing. I think that's a great way to start talking.

Dan Peat: (27:44)
I'll take that as a good hint, hint, nudge, nudge. I need to do a brown bag or a brown bag or a, lunch and learn on

Vicki Buckley: (27:49)
Oh yeah. Lunch and learns.

Dan Peat: (27:50)
on SOTL.

Vicki Buckley: (27:50)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Peat: (27:51)
Yeah. Okay. I'm on board, but if I'm committing to that, you're gonna help me out with it, right?

Vicki Buckley: (27:54)
Yes, sure.

Dan Peat: (27:55)
Awesome.

Vicki Buckley: (27:55)
No, .

Vicki Buckley: (27:58)
So Dan, what role can students play in helping faculty bring some SOTL projects to life?

Dan Peat: (28:03)
Yeah. And I mentioned data earlier and I probably should have more generally said feedback.

Vicki Buckley: (28:08)
Mm.

Dan Peat: (28:08)
And any of my leadership students that are listening to this, they're gonna start laughing because I say feedback so many times in that class that they write it and they get nauseous when I say it at the end of the semester.

Vicki Buckley: (28:19)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (28:19)
Or it's just a big joke, but I think it is critical.

Vicki Buckley: (28:22)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:22)
Because you don't know if something's working or not until you get the feedback.

Vicki Buckley: (28:26)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:26)
And that includes people that have graduated and are now working. Give us the feedback of, Hey, you remember when you took that course? You remember this thing that you said was really fun and cool? How have you used that?

Vicki Buckley: (28:38)
Ooh.

Dan Peat: (28:38)
And I'm gonna give a couple shout outs to, a couple alumni, Lindsey Jones and Amanda Reed, who have graduated a few years ago.

Dan Peat: (28:46)
And both of them have contacted me afterwards to say how much they learned in the classes.

Vicki Buckley: (28:50)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (28:52)
And have pointed to specific projects and things that I gave them to do.

Vicki Buckley: (28:57)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (28:57)
And they've seen that in their careers now.

Vicki Buckley: (28:59)
Oh, that's great.

Dan Peat: (29:00)
And, I think that's a, that's a really good selling point for doing this in a, in a little bit more professional, methodical way.

Vicki Buckley: (29:09)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (29:10)
so the more students give us feedback and, and help us out with this beyond just like helping write a case study.

Vicki Buckley: (29:16)
Right.

Dan Peat: (29:16)
But giving us feedback on how things go in the classroom, I think is critical.

Vicki Buckley: (29:20)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (29:20)
And I talk to a lot of recruiters too, to ask 'em what kind of projects they're they're seeing and what their feedback is on students.

Vicki Buckley: (29:26)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (29:26)
And I use that to reintegrate that into the projects I'm doing as well to make sure it's mimicking the real world experiences.

Vicki Buckley: (29:32)
Mm-hmm . That's great. Yeah. I love, for me as an instructional designer, anytime we give students the opportunity to use their voice and to share their experiences, instead of just, operating from, I am the expert, I know what's best. But to really take the time and hear what students are saying in that moment, but then also in the future as well. I think that's so important and meaningful for them because it, it helps them reflect on what they did and what they're thinking and how, it shapes them.

Dan Peat: (30:02)
And man, do, they come up with some good ideas.

Vicki Buckley: (30:04)
Oh my gosh, they totally do.

Dan Peat: (30:05)
I mean, I've, I've had things like, how do I teach this in the class? And I've asked students and they come up with some great ideas, and if they're good enough, hey, come on to the projects. Let's go do an independent study or something and present it at the.

Vicki Buckley: (30:17)
Yeah.

Dan Peat: (30:17)
The scholarly showcase. I keep highlighting that one.

Vicki Buckley: (30:20)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:20)
But I think that's such a great opportunity for them. And then they get the more confidence they.

Vicki Buckley: (30:25)
mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:26)
They can show that they've done something. And I, I think this is another selling point to parents and external partners too, of, look, your students are helping shape the future of the education at Lindner.

Vicki Buckley: (30:39)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:40)
And the more we can get external partners involved, the more they're able to make sure that the innovations that we're using in class actually reflect the real world.

Vicki Buckley: (30:49)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (30:50)
And I think that's probably the most important thing that they can, they can handle.

Dan Peat: (30:54)
So, just one last piece of advice for faculty, and I think it's kind of a, a challenge to them is share what you're doing in the classroom.

Vicki Buckley: (31:02)
Mm-hmm .

Dan Peat: (31:03)
Make sure it's grounded well, in theory, work with the instructional designers that know what they're doing, make sure that we're actually building real world skills for the students and share it and get it out there. Because I've learned so much from other people. I, you know, I've talked a little bit about my own projects and experiences, but I've used just as many of other people's innovations, and I think that's a really, really important part of the, the, knowledge dissemination we do at the university.

Vicki Buckley: (31:30)
Mm-hmm . Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (31:32)
My thanks to Dan Peat and Vicki Buckley for stopping by the Lindner podcast studio today to educate listeners on the scholarship of teaching and learning at the Lindner College of Business and beyond. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so that we can continue to bring you enjoyable content. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. We're back from winter break. How exciting. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at Lindner. Today I'm joined by Vaishnovi Palaparthy and Megha Pawar, two international students enrolled in Lindner's master of Information Systems program. I am so excited to learn about their respective journeys to Lindner and their experiences so far. Welcome Vaishnovi, and Megha. Thank you so much for being here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (00:31)
Hi Grant. Thank you so much. I'm Vaishnovi for people who are listening and I'm pretty excited for the opportunity of getting to speak about, you know, our admissions and our life here at Lindner. And yeah.

Megha Pawar: (00:42)
Hi Grant. I'm Megha, to the people who are listening. Thank you for having me. And I'm, pretty excited to share my experiences at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:50)
Well, thank you both again for being here. Both of you have fascinating backstories, and Vaishnovi, I wanna start with you and your path to Lindner and Cincinnati, which is more than unique, I would say.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (01:00)
. Yeah, mine is a long story. So, I was working in India and I worked as a cloud DevOps engineer back in India at TCS and everything was going great. And then I got married, so , which is also great. Let me just add.

Grant Freking: (01:15)
Yeah. To clarify. Yes.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (01:17)
Yes. So then, basically my husband lives here. So I moved to Cincinnati almost three years ago. And ever since I've been in Cincinnati and I just fell in love with the city. So people think that Cincinnati is like a small city and you know, how is it gonna be? It's not like New York or any big city. What experiences am I gonna get? But to everyone listening out there who's probably wanting to apply, I would say that this city brings in so much peace and calmness. It is also a city, but at the same time it's also a very, very you know, like a calm, slow place to stay at. And with getting your master's started and everything changing in your life, that sort of calmness is actually very, very important, which you will get over here, I assure you. But on a side note, I love snow because in India we don't get to see snow.

Grant Freking: (02:06)
Yeah, you're getting plenty of it right now.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:08)
A lot more than I asked for, but, yeah, that's pretty exciting. And I fell in love with the city, the culture, the people, the people are so welcoming, they're so warm and yeah, that's my story.

Grant Freking: (02:19)
Yeah. So a little bit of like small town feel with a lot of big city features here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:23)
Yes. Perfect. Exactly.

Grant Freking: (02:24)
Okay. And Megha, what about you?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (02:26)
So my journey to Lindner and Cincinnati has been transformative. I grew up in Mumbai, India and worked as a research operations analyst at Merkel, where I analyzed market survey data for clients like Nielsen IQ and IRI worldwide to deliver actionable insights. After gaining valuable professional experience, I realized that I needed to enhance my technical and business skills with a deeper understanding. And Lindner stood out to me with the focus on experiential learning and Cincinnati's welcoming community and abundant career opportunities made it an easy choice. Since arriving, I have engaged in research, taken on leadership roles like student ambassador and truly found a second home here.

Grant Freking: (03:11)
That's great to hear. Now, what was it, I guess specifically about Lindner and the city that has made you feel, or what is it about the, the, lemme start over. Danielle. 3, 2, 1.

Grant Freking: (03:19)
Megha, What is it specifically about Lindner and the city in general that has made you feel at home specifically after relocating half a global way?

Megha Pawar: (03:27)
Yeah, so the sense of community and the opportunities at Lindner were key. The faculty and staff made me feel welcome from day one. And the college's focus on hands-on learning, aligned with my career goals. Additionally, Cincinnati's vibrant sports culture, I've attended every football game this year of Bearcats.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (03:46)
She did, she did.

Megha Pawar: (03:47)
I think excluding only one because it was very snowy then .

Grant Freking: (03:50)
Okay.

Megha Pawar: (03:50)
And the thriving arts scene and extensive co-op opportunities sparked my interest, making it an ideal place to grow both personally and professionally.

Grant Freking: (04:00)
Awesome. Awesome. To clarify football, you mean American football or are we talking about soccer?

Megha Pawar: (04:04)
American football.

Grant Freking: (04:05)
Yeah, . Okay. Okay. I just, because I know, I know to the rest of the world, football is actually football and not American football, so.

Megha Pawar: (04:10)
Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (04:11)
Vaishnovi, what about you? I'm, you know, I'm assuming you came to Lindner not just because of location, but because also because of some other features.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (04:17)
Yes. Like obviously like I had everywhere to apply, but I still chose it here. Of course, my home is here and that weighs in, I agree. But then, so my husband's as well a graduate from University of Cincinnati from the BANA program, and he keeps telling me, talking about his experiences and about the faculty and how it transformed his life and you know, how it made it better, which kind of did convince me into coming here, . Other than that, you know, the ranking of Lindner itself is pretty convincing if I'm being honest. And, just being here feels like home right now for me. So, yeah.

Grant Freking: (04:53)
Well, I'll have to give your husband a big thank you if ever meet him one day. Vaishnovi, I'm sure potential and current Lindner students are interested to know how you've transitioned, you know, to to Cincinnati. How has your experience been? I know you've been here for three years so far, but again, iandn your experience is a little bit different than Megha, but how, how has your experience been in the city?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:12)
It's been pretty amazing, if I'm being honest. of course, like just moving across the globe, it's not easy. And the transformation of, you know, completely new country, new people, new culture

Grant Freking: (05:23)
New climate, as you're experiencing.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:24)
New climate, yes, there are all these factors, but then also the people here are very, very nice. Let me add something on a side note. The driving here is very peaceful 'cause I've been to New York.

Grant Freking: (05:36)
Oh wow.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:37)
I've been to Miami and then I decided I'm not gonna drive there, here like people are good. And, other than that, being in Cincinnati experiencing, you know, the October Fest and, you know, stuff like that, it makes you still feel like there are things to do and

Grant Freking: (05:54)
Sense of community is kind of what I'm, what I'm picking up on here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (05:57)
Yeah. I wasn't finding the right word, but yeah, that's basically what I'm trying to say. Other than that, also for people in India who are listening, I would like to say that don't assume that there are no Indians here or there's no like Indian facilities or like Indian community. Cincinnati is so welcoming that there is a rich Indian community which is well respected and you know, you'll still get your food, you'll still get your groceries, everything will be good. That's what I wanna say. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (06:24)
Yeah, it's an important everyday life.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (06:25)
Yep.

Grant Freking: (06:25)
Some things to know me. What about you?

Megha Pawar: (06:27)
Yeah, so the transition was smooth. When I attended the orientation with, professor Rokey. I can't explain how thankful I was to him that day because the moment I heard him talk, it felt like we had somebody to fall back to or go to, with all our problems. And yeah, he's been that sort of a person with all of us in the MS IS program and he's the program director. Then also the events that were held in the college, there were too many events going on by the different student clubs and organizations throughout the campus, in TUC near the rec center. And, yeah, the strong support from the staff and faculty and these experiences not only helped me to settle in quickly, but also made me feel truly in home here because

Grant Freking: (07:18)
It's, it's, you're not just here for academics, you're here for the rest of your life or you're not outside the building. So it's great to hear that you've felt that sense of community. Not to say another phrase again, but Yep.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (07:27)
I would actually like to add something to what she just said.

Grant Freking: (07:29)
Sure. Yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (07:31)
In terms of the sense of community. So for me, like my situation is different. Like I already live with a person here, so I'm not technically alone, but like most of the people who move here are like, they, they, you know, starting out a new life. If you're joining the graduate's program, you're like literally you left off where you were working and you like left everything behind. And you've come here to start a new life in the true sense. And, it's very easy to be, get depressed very soon, feel homesick very, very soon because you are, at the end of the day, you're going back home and you're alone. You're not seeing your family as regularly as you would in back at your home, wherever you come from.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (08:09)
But the college actually takes effort to make sure you don't feel that way. As she said, various cultural, various clubs, various, various events keep happening so that, you know, the students mix, the students meet each other and the students like they mingle with each other and make good friends so that, you know, these friendships like they last for a lifetime is what the college looks at. And of course, speaking about the professors and our, godfather, which I would like to say Professor Rokey , he'll definitely, you will never feel alone for a minute. Other than that there are like services, like the CAPS and everything, who's there to help you and not make you feel awkward even once mm-hmm . So, you know, there are all these things that just, you know, add confidence to your choice of actually coming to UC and like if you'll not even question your decision even for a second , that's how comfortable we feel. Yeah. Let's just put it that way.

Grant Freking: (09:04)
Like, thank you both for sharing that. It's very refreshing to hear.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (09:06)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:06)
Let's zero in a bit on the MS IS program. If, if you don't mind that each of you are enrolled in. Megha, what is it about this program that you felt would not only meet your expectations academically but also prepare you for the next step of your professional career? I'm assuming you don't wanna be in school forever. So what about your professional career?

Megha Pawar: (09:22)
So the MSIS program at Lindner offers the perfect balance of technical and business skills. Courses like web development with.net and information technology management are directly aligned with the industry needs. The program's small cohort size fosters close connections and personalized learning while the one-year format ensures a good return of investment. Additionally, the emphasis on real-world projects, co-op opportunities and networking has given me the confidence to take on challenging roles in the tech industry.

Grant Freking: (09:56)
Awesome. Vaishnovi?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (09:58)
So of course I've spoken to people who've studied in the MS IS program before and I actually do have a couple of friends who graduated from UC. And when I spoke when I spoke to them about this and about joining masters here and why specifically MS IS, it's because MS IS actually offers a holistic approach to the program and the way the course is designed and the type of electives we are offered, the type of course subjects we have, everything actually, if you put it together in one plate, it makes like the perfect, you know, meal, if I would put it that way. You know, there's enough balance of subject and also professional experience. And most of our professors are our adjunct professors here who basically work full-time and also come here to teach us. And they have like a lifetime of experience. What can get better than that?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (10:51)
Like they literally, speak to us about whatever we are learning how it's actually used at work every day, which is actually kind of important 'cause you can only understand so much with books, right? You, and then you gotta go out there and work. So they actually help us focus on, you know, where we are supposed to be focusing at, looking at working on, and they are so helpful, so understanding they'll not judge you no matter what. Like if you don't know the most basic things, they are still going to take the time out to explain it to you. I, myself have experienced that a lot of times and they don't make you feel, you know, because people here come from different backgrounds. Like I, she herself came as an analyst previously and I'm a cloud engineer. Like there's no relation between these two . Yeah. But we are still in the same program and we are still doing very well. It's because of the way our professors are making sure that we learn. And that is something in Lindner that I am very, very happy about. And I will tell it a hundred times to people listening that they need to, they need to know that what great stuff is actually happening here and these are things you don't know until you don't start studying here.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (11:58)
So yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:01)
Yeah. We can promote as much as what you just said in marketing, but until you're in actually in the program and experiencing that, that's, you know, yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:08)
It's like a risk at the end of the day, you're just putting in a lot of your time, your career, like your future career, everything based on this degree. And I understand the type of fear people might have. Like what's gonna happen next? Is this the right choice? I should have taken that program probably, or this, but this program actually will give you the comfort that you've made the right choice.

Grant Freking: (12:28)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:28)
That is something I can assure.

Grant Freking: (12:30)
Right. And it, I'm assuming it's very helpful for those professors that you spoke about that have not only the academic experience, but their professional experience.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:37)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (12:37)
They can come in fresh off, you know, talked about having night classes tonight.

Megha Pawar: (12:40)
Yeah, yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:41)
They come, they might be coming off, they're teaching at night too. They might be coming off at five o'clock, like, Hey, listen to what happened to me at this job I work at. Yeah. And, and relaying those sort of issues and real world problems to you.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (12:52)
I would actually add something to the same thing. So we've had, professors who work and who are also coming back to teach us and like if we actually faced a problem in class, because we do like these in class lab sessions and activity sessions with real software and we faced like a, like some dead end. They actually tell us what actually happened at their work and how they got over it. And like, you know, and the way they tell it, it makes us remember how to not do it again. So this is the type of teaching you want to have in your life. Right. So yeah.

Grant Freking: (13:24)
Excellent. Have more of a bigger picture question for the both of you, and I'll start with you Vaishnovi. How would you differentiate information systems from similar but different areas of study? I think people outside of, you know, you're in the program, I do marketing for the program as well as many others, but maybe confused with BANA or some other.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:42)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (13:42)
Similar programs here.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:43)
Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (13:43)
At UC or elsewhere. How would you differentiate IS?

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (13:46)
So, as I said IS, is is, it's gonna be mine forever, but Oh, so my husband did it from BANA and I'm doing IS we chose different programs. Even though I knew what he studied it, it would be very easy for me to just get his help and, you know, study and get through. But then I specifically chose this program on my own and not wanting to get into that. It's because, as I just answered as well, that this program gives a completely different approach. There is analytics and it's very easy to get, confused between BANA and IS the way the courses are designed. We have a lot of similar subjects. We mostly in our class as well, we have BANA students sitting with us. That's, that's the amount of similarity we share. But also we are different at the same time because, we do other subjects as well, which are, are at this point of time in market, have a lot of demand.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (14:41)
And that's how adaptive this course has been. So what I would like to say about how is it different, but also same, but also different kind of a thing is.

Grant Freking: (14:49)
. Yep.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (14:52)
Basically, it can look lucrative to, you know, get confused like BANA, IS or, MBA and stuff like that. But this program offers like a good amount of, you know, knowledge in terms of, books I would say, I don't know how to put it, but like in-class knowledge, but also real world practical experience. Like we are preparing, in future and we are not sure what type of job roles we are looking at, but we are prepared to be analysts if we get an analyst role. We are prepared to be a data engineer if we get a data engineer role. We are also prepared to be a web developer role. I mean, get a web developer role. I mean,

Grant Freking: (15:24)
Yeah.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (15:24)
So that's how the program is getting us ready. Like there are multiple roles that we can adapt ourselves to because of the type of courses we've chosen and the type of courses that they offer.

Grant Freking: (15:34)
Right.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (15:34)
So we are not like, you know, directed into one direction to study just this. So Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:40)
Sure. Yeah. It's not too rigid. Megha, how would you classify IIS

Megha Pawar: (15:43)
So as Vaishnovi said, yes, it's very easy to get confused between BANA, is and all, but, is has more of a technical focus too with respect. Like that is the differentiating point between BANA and IS we have a little more technical edge over them. Yes, it is prepare, it has prepared us for, various roles like data engineer or maybe, front-end web developer or maybe mobile app developers because we have done subjects like, exam and web services, et cetera. yes, we do have similar courses with them, such as data angling and et cetera. But yeah, it is similar but still different, with the approach that we have. , they do more of case studies. We do have a subject which had case study, but we are more sort of hands-on experience with sub like projects and everything.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (16:45)
Yeah. As she said, the types of, the type of projects that we are doing, like in the previous semester, we've, we've been done with one semester. So we've already built a website, fully functioning website.

Megha Pawar: (16:54)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (16:55)
We've hosted a website. We've, at the same time we have also done system analysis projects in which we are literally seeing the skeletal structure of a particular process or something. We've also done like statistical computing projects of like, that's a subject that I took that's a, that's a subject that Megha didn't take actually. She's taken data wrangling and I took stat comp and we've like, I've created HTML pages and websites, but we've also done Core Python and coding. So that's what like I'm trying to put out here that, you know, you get a lot of experience and the type of projects that we actually get to do, it just brings so much more experience to the table that, you know, it's something that you don't wanna forget.

Grant Freking: (17:38)
Now what recommendations, and, Megha I'll start with you. Would you have for fellow international students who may be considering the Lindner College of Business? Whether it's, you know, fellow students from India or anywhere, what, what, what sort of priorities should they take? And then also how would Lindner factor into those priorities?

Megha Pawar: (17:57)
So my advice to them will be to embrace every opportunity. Engage with the community, participate in the networking events. Like Lindner hosts a lot of networking events, like Data Science Symposium. We have career fairs now. We have a OBAIS night wherein we will have, various companies and we can engage with them. We have Friday seminars, which are done by Professor Rokey. And that is especially only for the MS-IS cohort. So, yeah. And don't hesitate to seek help when needed. The faculty, staff, students, alumni, everybody are incredibly supportive and most importantly, stay curious and open to new experiences. It'll make your journey even more exciting.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (18:47)
Okay. So my recommendations to people who are going to apply firstly would be, of course check out the curriculum check out the website, see how everything's going. That's like the most basic thing.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (18:57)
So when it comes to curriculum there are a lot of options for our electives actually. It's just you can keep scrolling and then they just keep coming.

Grant Freking: (19:03)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (19:04)
Because that's the type of offers offering we get from college. I would like to say that, don't assume that probably this subject is not something that I have been working on so it doesn't align with my work experience or something. I would actually motivate them to take the new subject. It'll give them more experience. And the faculty here, I can assure you, are going to make sure that you learn. There's a lot of encouragement here for making sure that we learn something out of what we are doing, because that's basically the core point of doing your masters. And, don't try to, judge based on the city or you know, it being a small city, because I understand the excitement, like, you're moving to U.S., So you want to live here, you wanna live there.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (19:48)
Don't do that. Like, I get it. But I would definitely tell that the type of course and the type of curriculum is something that will really, really help people no matter what background you're coming from. So that would be my number one recommendation to make sure that, don't even, think about, is it gonna be good? I'll assure you that it's gonna be good. That is one thing. And for the people who already applied and like are gonna come in for the summer or for fall, my recommendation would for them would be something similar to what Megha said. There are so many events happening in terms of academic and non-academic, focusing on the academic part for now. There's like so much professional experience that you get to interact with. And as she said, professor Rokey, he arranges Friday seminars and stuff like that in which there are like real working people who are taking the time out to come and speak to us and to, you know, show us how it's going to be in real world and how they are going to, how their needs and our needs actually coincide basically.

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (20:51)
So what I would say to the people who already applied is be excited, make sure you mingle, make sure you go to these events. Make sure you network, which is, professor Rokey's favorite word.

Grant Freking: (21:02)
Mm-hmm .

Vaishnovi Palaparthy: (21:03)
Networking, . So make sure you network and don't try to limit your opportunities on your own because there is, so, there's a lot to offer here. And grab every opportunity you get.

Grant Freking: (21:16)
My thanks to Vaishnovi Palaparthy and Megha Pawar for sharing their experiences today on Bearcat Mean Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five star review for Bearcats MeanBbusiness on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Grant Freking: (21:29)
Attention UC undergrads. If you are interested in learning more about the highly ranked graduate programs at the Lindner College of Business, be sure to attend the Lindner Graduate Program Showcase, being held Thursday, February 13th from 4 to 6:00 PM at Lindner Hall. Attendees will hear from current students have access to personalized guidance from Lindner's graduate programs team, and receive free food and swag. Seats are limited. So click the link in this episode's description to register. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Megha Pawar: (21:56)
Go Bearcats.