Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:01)
Straight lines are an anomaly in higher education. The road less traveled, marked by twists and turns is the norm for students. Such as the manner in which many students find their way to Lindner, too. Students from a range of backgrounds, locations, and stages in their lives turn to Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:15)
The same could be said of my guest today. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at the Carl Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. Joining me today is Dr. Ryan Gaffney. A three time, yes. Three time Lindner graduate, who is now a professor at the Owen Graduate School of Management at Vanderbilt University. Ryan, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Ryan Gaffney: (00:42)
Yeah, thanks, grant. Uh, happy to be here. Uh, you know, if, if you would've told me, you know, the 18-year-old version of myself, uh, would've ended up with three degrees all from, you know, Lindner, uh, I, I thought you would be, you know, trolling me. I, that's just beyond my wildest imagination.

Grant Freking: (00:58)
Rightfully so. I think, yeah,

Ryan Gaffney: (01:01)
. Yeah, it's crazy. I, I had no idea what professors did outside of teaching, to be honest. Mm-hmm . For a while. Uh, I even thought I was gonna major in, in something totally different outside of business. Uh, I, I was taking a lot of, uh, theoretical physics classes. Uh, it turns out that those are, are really hard and, um, you know, there's no, there's no experiment. So we, we kind of just sit around and, and think and do math. Uh, so that wasn't really my, my, uh, cup of tea, if you will. Uh, but that all changed when I, I took a marketing class, um, and it, it completely like reframed how I thought about business. I, I wasn't a big business guy until I took this class called Consumer Behavior. I, I believe, uh, professor Frank Kardes was teaching it. And I, I remember on the first day we were talking about experiments and, you know, we were really diving into how do people think and how do people behave in, in the marketplace? And I'd never thought about business that way. And so, uh, that one class, you know, set me on a path I, I never saw coming. But, um, you know, looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. So that, that really got things in motion. And, uh, now I'm here. So, uh, happy to be here and, uh, excited about this, uh, this episode, this podcast.

Grant Freking: (02:09)
Well, thanks again for being here. It sounds like you're blending a little bit of the science background with, with your marketing studies there, but we'll get, we'll get to that. I wanna start at the beginning though. You're a first generation student, and you've got, as we've mentioned, three degrees from Lindner. You've got your BBA, your MS marketing, and your PhD, all in marketing again. So walk me through what you do, I guess, uh, now and then how, let's, let's go to the, the, the beginning and how you kind of got your start, which you sort of touched on at the beginning in, in your intro there, but let's expand a little bit more on that.

Ryan Gaffney: (02:40)
Yeah, yeah. I'm, uh, I'm a sucker for origin stories. Those are my, uh, my favorite Marvel movies, you know. Um, so this one will be a little less, uh, interesting. I think, uh, you know, there's no superheroes involved. But, uh, I did start, uh,

Grant Freking: (02:54)
.

Ryan Gaffney: (02:54)
I, I did start at UC in, in the fall of 2013. Uh, I, I went to, uh, high school over at, uh, Sycamore High School, um, over on the east side there. Um, and like a lot of students, I was, I was figuring out things, uh, as I went. I, I, uh, you know, I was a first generation student. Neither of my, neither of my parents had gone to a university or had college degree, so I honestly, I relied a lot on the resources that UC had to offer in, and later Lindner. Um, but yeah, real quick, shout out to my first gen students, uh, listening now, uh, . It, it's tough, you know, not really knowing what's, uh, in the path, uh, in front of you, but

Grant Freking: (03:32)
Absolutely. Yep.

Ryan Gaffney: (03:33)
But that, you know, that's one of the reasons why Lindner and, and UC is so special. I mean, they, they really helped me kind of guide me down, uh, which paths were available to me as a, uh, someone that was interested in marketing. Um, but anyway, I, I'm deviating a little bit. I, I'll go back to my, to the origin story, uh, . But, uh, when I, uh, after 2014, I transferred into, um, marketing, uh, the marketing major transferred into Lindner. And, uh, that eventually led me to, uh, conduct research in consumer behavior. Uh, for those that are familiar with it. Uh, this is the science of marketing and, uh, really like how people like you and me grant think about, uh, buying and making decisions and navigating uncertainty, um, and, and that sort of stuff. Um, but yeah, one thing led to another. I I ended up staying at UC for my master's in marketing, uh, graduating in 2017. Uh, during that time, I worked in the behavioral lab and spent time in what was, uh, at the time the brand new 3D printing lab at Lindner. That, that was with professor, uh, Elliott Manzon. Uh, great, great professor. Uh, if you're listening to this now and you're, you're a student, uh, re recommend, uh, taking his class. It's a lot of fun.

Grant Freking: (04:45)
Yeah. Elliot Elliott's great. A lot of fun classes from him.

Ryan Gaffney: (04:48)
Yeah. And, and generally, uh, you know, very empathetic guy. You know, he offers a lot of knowledge, a lot of wisdom. Um, yeah. So, uh, after my master's, I, I decided to pursue my, uh, PhD. Uh, I, I studied under, uh, professor Frank Kardes, which, uh, yes, is, is the first marking class I took that I talked about before. Uh, he, he was teaching consumer behavior in undergrad, and I decided I would study consumer behavior with him, um, as I pursued my, uh, PhD. Uh, I also had guidance from other professors like, uh, Bob Wyer, uh, Josh Clarkson, uh, amongst a few others. Um, I graduated in 2021, and, uh, I headed to Vanderbilt, um, at the Owen Graduate School of Management. Uh, that's where I am today. Uh, here I conduct consumer behavior research and teach marketing courses like, uh, advertising and experiential learning. Um, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Both my research and my approach to teaching are, are rooted in what I learned during my time at Lindner. I can't say this enough. I mean, UC isn't just a place with opportunities. It's a place where students, you know, make, make things happen. I, I know that sounds incredibly cliche, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (05:56)
But it's a, sometimes those are true, right?

Ryan Gaffney: (05:59)
. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, what, what I really appreciated about UC was were all the opportunities that were available to me. And, uh, I, I think that is so, so unique, um, for undergraduate program. Um, you know, they don't just put you on a track and then expect you to graduate, you know, checking off all these boxes, right? There are so many different opportunities. There's so many different resources, and, um, you know, you combine that with the grittiness of your students who are motivated to, you know, go and, and get everything that they can. Um, I, I think that's what makes UC special. I mean, I, I read the other day that I, uh, y'all have the, the most unicorns in the country, right? Uh, the, the most, uh, funded entrepreneurship ventures and, and a lot of these things. And I, I, I credit that to a lot, uh, the student body as well as the, uh, you know, the, the building, you know, the Lindner, the, the dean, the professors, so on and so forth.

Grant Freking: (06:51)
Ryan, you're, you're sort of Lindner life cycle as I kind of like to coin it, uh, is really fascinating to me. And I appreciate you kind of walk walking listeners through your journey there, which is lengthy. You, we were talking off air beforehand about how you, you had the experience of, of both buildings, right? You were in the old Lindner Hall, the new Lindner hall. You, you signed a beam that is now, uh, keeping this one of the beams, keeping this building upright. So that's, it's such a cool, a cool story.

Grant Freking: (07:17)
And let, let's touch a little bit more on, as you say, the origin, uh, story. I'm, I'm interested in your sort of aha moment and your, your original consumer behavior course with Professor Kardes. That seems to not, seems to definitely altered the course of your academic career. Let's dive a little bit more into that. 'cause I think lots of students have that have that moment where they kind of, maybe the switch flips. I know for me, I, it happened to me in high school when I decided I wanted to study journalism when I was 16. But some students, it takes a little longer than that, and they, and they come to them in college like it did, like it did for you.

Ryan Gaffney: (07:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I, I want to, you know, preface this with, uh, undergraduate college, especially the first couple years that, I mean, that's the time to explore. And honestly, for me, the first couple of semesters were finding out what I didn't like to do. Right. And, uh, you know, I thought the idea of physics was really cool. Uh, the math got really hard. And you know what, I, I wasn't great at memorizing formulas that that wasn't, uh, something that I was particularly gifted at. Um, however, I, I love the idea of, uh, discovery of, of experimentation of, you know, kind of the, the sciencey kind of nature of things and how to think about science. And so, um, I, I took a business course, uh, my, my father's in sales. And so I, I thought, you know, uh, why not give it a shot?

Ryan Gaffney: (08:38)
And, uh, you know, so I, I, I remember the first day of class, I, I don't know, I, you know, the listeners now, if they've taken a, a class or course with Frank Kardes, they, they already know this, but Frank teaches from a very, very scientific perspective, right? So we, we will go over experiments, right? And he, he will go into detail. I mean, that, that is his jam. Uh, he's a, a, uh, you know, he's kind of legendary within the, the, uh, academic, uh, research, uh, field. And so I, I remember the first day we were talking about experiments, and I was like, I did not think about business from a scientific perspective, right? To me, business was about, you know, talking to other people and persuasion and, and these kind of things. And, and then all of a sudden, you know, I have this professor who's breaking it down, like, you know, I, I saw in the physics department, and I was like, oh, this really resonates with me. And I, I think that actually that aha moment, I, I think that's more common than, uh, maybe we, we give credit to, right? I mean, it happened to you for journalism, um, you know, in high school, which I, you know, I'm envious of, but 'cause it took me a little later, uh, .

Grant Freking: (09:46)
Yeah.

Ryan Gaffney: (09:47)
But, you know, uh,

Grant Freking: (09:51)
But you just, you decided, you, yeah. You decided you wanted research, but sort of in a different way. So still sort of the science background of what you originally kind of wanted, but just a different spin on it right? In inside the business school.

Ryan Gaffney: (10:03)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I guess I, I never realized that business could also mean the study of people and how we behave. And, um, that, that was something that I, I mean, that, that gripped me. And I, I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I remember I kept bothering Professor Kardes, so I apologize for that if he's listening now, uh, . But I was so , I was so interested in it. I read that textbook, uh, you know, from cover to cover. And, uh, you know, eventually I, I studied, uh, under him, uh, when I was pursuing my PhD. So I, I think, uh, you know, I, I made up for bothering him my, my freshman year. But, um, yeah, I mean, I, I think that can be used as an example for, for other students that are maybe uncertain about what they wanna do. Um, you know, go ahead and, and ask professors for the courses that you appreciate.

Ryan Gaffney: (10:52)
You know, kind of what, what is the journey? What is the pathway to, um, you know, work and kind of that area, right? Whether that's digital marketing, um, I know Professor Mantel taught digital marketing when I left, and, and she, um, was excellent at, um, kind of getting students in a position to, uh, achieve a, a digital marketing career. Uh, that's just one example. But, um, you know, definitely reach out to your professors. They, they love talking to students, and especially students that ask about how to, you know, pursue a career in the thing that they teach. Um, as a professor myself, I, I, I have to say, when a, when a student asks me about, you know, the subject that I teach, I mean, sometimes I, I talk too much, right? I, I think you'll find that a lot of these professors are so passionate about this stuff that, you know, you may get too much advice.

Grant Freking: (11:41)
Right. I like the trial and error approach, though. 'cause that's something we teach the students here at Lindner about co-op, right? It's not only about figuring out what you want to do, it's about figuring out what you don't want to do. And sort of, hopefully it's not a big long process of elimination for you, but hopefully, and hopefully you land on something soon, but it, it does help rule out, I think, you know, and maybe narrow down your, your eventual job search. Ryan, I wanna transition a little bit to some outside of the classroom experiences. You had some study abroad experiences that had, that you, uh, that you, you were pretty passionate about. And walk me through how those impacted you. How do you sort of landed on the few experiences you had and, and your overall, um, experience with your experiences outside of the classroom here at Lindner?

Ryan Gaffney: (12:27)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just background here, you know, first generation student haven't really left Ohio very much. Um, and then, uh, I, I remember I, I met, uh, professor Armstrong, Lee Armstrong, um, and, and she was running the, uh, the, uh, study abroad program at, at UC. I, I think I went to an information session and I, I remember, you know, her just talking about, um, anyone, any student is, is eligible for, uh, the study abroads. Um, and here's how you do it. And I, you know, this is another moment where you, you see Lindner, they really provide these opportunities, um, for those that that won it. And I, I thought this was, this would be incredible to go to the other side of the globe. Are you kidding me? Uh, that, that would be why.

Grant Freking: (13:17)
Yeah, of course.

Ryan Gaffney: (13:17)
Uh, yeah. And, and so I, I decided to, uh, sign up for, um, this study abroad in China.

Ryan Gaffney: (13:25)
Uh, I, I was interested in how, how factories work and in global business in general. This was around the time that I decided to add, uh, international business to my, to my major. And so I, I remember talking to Professor Seiple about it. She, she was all on board. Um, and she, she really helped me kind of prepare for that, that study abroad. And then I, I have to tell you what, what we learned on that study abroad was very important. We toured factories, uh, like P&G and, um, I think that was in the Sichuan province, right? So we, we actually got to go inside the factories and see how things are made, which is really cool. But honestly, you know, the, the most I got out of that was just seeing how people in other places in the world, you know, behave and, and interact. It, it was really eye-opening for me and really kind of changed my mindset on how the world works. And so I, I highly, highly recommend, you know, to, to the undergraduate students listening now, um, you know, to check those opportunities out. You know, maybe they're not for you, but, um, you know, at least, you know, give them a a a once over, right. Um,

Grant Freking: (14:30)
Yeah. Some real world applications of international business on those trips. And so that was one for you. Then another one was a, a trip with the, uh, very famous professor here at Lindner, uh, Chuck Matthews, who is also famous for the, the, the second trip that you went on, which I think he makes yearly. Yearly now. And that's to the, uh, United Arab Emirates.

Ryan Gaffney: (14:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Pro Professor Matthews, uh, just a great guy, uh, . Um, you know, he, he's really committed to, uh, helping you, you know, learn while you're studying abroad or studying abroad. Um, I, I remember one of the most, uh, you know, at the time was kind of frustrating, but, uh, to be honest, but, uh, valuable things looking back, was that we had to keep a journal, right? So every day we'd have to write about our experiences, and I honestly, I still have that journal today. And, uh, so I, I highly recommend taking a journal with you when, if you study abroad or, um, even if you, if you venture into new areas, uh, in, in the world. But, um, but yeah, that, that study abroad and, uh, the UAE was, was really, really cool. Really, really eye-opening. I mean, uh, you may notice the theme between my, uh, both of my study abroads, that they're not kind of your, your typical, um, you know, trip to, uh, you know, maybe Europe or, or, uh, a different place in America. I, I was really interested in how people not like me, uh, kind of operate in society. And, and so it was really eye-opening from that perspective. Um, you know, a culture that, you know, doesn't drink for example, or doesn't drink alcohol, I should, maybe I should be more specific. They drink water, don't worry. Mm-hmm

Grant Freking: (16:09)
. Yes, they hydrate, uh,

Ryan Gaffney: (16:11)
. Maybe I should drink some more water.

Grant Freking: (16:13)
Yeah. And you also note that you, uh, you, you told me beforehand that how this, uh, this co this the co-op with, with Chuck and at the UAE, uh, helped you very significantly with your first co-op and, um, a little bit of context around market research analysis for some, for some startups.

Ryan Gaffney: (16:31)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, Chuck is, uh, or Professor Matthews, uh, is, uh, you know, really into entrepreneurship. I, I know that that's kind of his, his jam over there. And so that was what this whole study abroad was about, and it was really interesting to see how this startup community works and the similarities between how it works in America and, uh, and the UAE. Um, but this, this knowledge that I, I learned from, uh, this study abroad and, and from Professor Matthews, uh, really helped me get a job, uh, at, at a, uh, for my first co-op where I helped, uh, Cincinnati based startups with their market research, uh, needs. And so I did a lot of market penetration analyses. Uh, you know, I, I was getting startup, uh, companies onto QVC, uh, . So you probably, the listener don't know what that is, but your parents do, um,

Grant Freking: (17:27)
Or if, or if maybe if they watch Hacks on HBO, they might know, so

Ryan Gaffney: (17:30)
Oh, yeah, good point. Good point. Um, but yeah, so that really helped me gain experience in, in a industry, in an area that, um, you know, it's hard to get into. And, and so that really helped me with my co-op, and honestly, that, that helped me as I, uh, started to, uh, push forward in, in that, uh, area. You know, I, that wasn't my first, or that wasn't my last, uh, job in, uh, kind of the startup world.

Grant Freking: (17:56)
Mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (17:57)
Um, I, I kept working through my master's, um, at, at different companies. I, I believe I was at Luxotica, uh, at the time for my master's. Um, but yeah, all, all around startups. At, at the time, Luxotica was onboarding a, a new company, so they, they wanted the startup folk. Anyway, I digress. I know, uh, . But, uh, the, the things I, I learned from, uh, that, that study abroad really helped me, um, you know, kind of learn about this area, learned that I liked this area and led to my first job. Sure.

Grant Freking: (18:29)
Yeah. Let's transition into your master's studies. Um, I know you, you graduated your undergrad early, which, uh, I think may have been a, a different notion back, back when, when you did it, but I, I know currently more and more students are doing this because they're, they're entering Lindner with more and more college credit, right? So they're graduating early and they're often, uh, just graduating early to get jobs, or they're also moving into a master's program or an MBA program here at Lindner. So walk me through that thought process from you and the ability to sort of customize your education and your master's, uh, master's of marketing program.

Ryan Gaffney: (19:06)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That, that is one thing that I, I really appreciate about Lindner itself is, you know, once again, there's not one single track that, you know, the, the college puts you on, and it expects you to check off the boxes. I, for me, what was best, uh, was to, um, you know, graduate early, so I can transition to that master's program as, uh, as you just mentioned. And eventually my PhD. Um, I, I didn't come in with a lot of, uh, AP credit. I, I don't think I came in with any AP credit, actually. Uh, but I, I tested out of intro to marketing, uh, . I, I don't know if you can still do that. I think that was in like a testing phase. Um, however, uh, you know, one thing that Lindner did let me do is I, I just took 18 credit hours a semester, and, uh, once I realized that consumer behavior was kind of my passion was, was something I wanted to pursue going forward, um, you know, I kind of buckled down and just knocked out those, those courses. And, uh, that led me to the master's program, um, that, that led me to, uh, just a, a plethora of opportunities. Um, the amount of job offers and, and networking opportunities in the Master's program are, are really, uh, astounding. Um, I, I think a lot of master's programs, uh, at least in marketing, could learn a thing or two from how Cincinnati has it set up. So, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (20:24)
Yeah. Then you, you also, I know, spent a great deal amount of time in the consumer marketing insights lab, some sort of different sort of, uh, subsets within that too.

Ryan Gaffney: (20:36)
Absolutely. Yeah. I, uh, so I, I worked in the, the 3D printing lab, uh, at the time. Uh, I worked in the behavioral lab as well, um. And in this behavioral lab, I, I had the role of research assistant, and my job there was to, uh, help conduct those studies. And so for the first time in my life, I got to see, you know, these studies, I learned so much about in this consumer behavior class, so much that I learned about, you know, from these other professors. Um, and I, I don't know how many Lindner students know this, but the, the marketing department at Lindner is, you know, worldwide famous. Um, they're, uh, absolute rock stars over there. And so to see their research, um, in progress, which is invaluable to me, something and an opportunity that most undergrads do not have. So, uh, I, I recommend if you're, if you really enjoy your consumer behavior class, um, you know, maybe reach out to see if you know a research assistant is kind of the next step for you. Um, I, I loved my time there and, and ultimately that, that led to me deciding to, um, quit my job. Uh, my parents weren't thrilled about that, but quit my job, and, uh, enroll in the, uh, the PhD, uh, program at, at Cincinnati, at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (21:50)
Yeah. You, uh, you had two degrees and you decided why not? Let's go for one more. So, uh, decided to get, get, spend even more time as you, with you, as you mentioned, some, some world famous researchers in marketing and get, get your PhD in marketing.

Ryan Gaffney: (22:05)
Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it, it was, it was kind of a, a thrilling experience. Uh, once again, you know, as a, as a first generation student, I, I didn't know how PhD programs worked. I didn't know how Master's program worked. You know, looking back, maybe I compensated a little too much for, uh, being a first gen, I, I felt like I had to get all the degree degrees now. Right?

Grant Freking: (22:28)
Right, yeah. Yeah. There's plenty more for you to get if you, if you're still interested. So.

Ryan Gaffney: (22:32)
Yeah, I, I think my parents would be even more upset, uh, . No, but, uh, you know, there, there's great programs there. And, and for my PhD, I, I studied consumer behavior. Uh, I, I benefited from learning from some of these, these great researchers. Um, at the time, uh, we had Bob Wyer, uh, in the marketing department, and I, I know that Dean, she, she's famous for, uh, Dean Lewis. She's famous for this paradox mindset, right? And, which is, you know, really cool research. I believe that research was published in JPSP. It's a really fancy scientific journal, so, you know, very prestigious. Um, Bob Wyer, uh, was the one that kind of discovered mindsets, and so he was a huge deal as well. Uh, I think at one point he was evaluated as one of the top a hundred scientists in the world. Um, and so, uh, it was really neat just to see how people like Bob talk, right. People, how, how people like Frank, uh, interact with him. And, um, so that, that led me to conducting my own research. Uh, I, I ended up giving a, uh, I don't know if you know this, I, I ended up giving a, uh, TEDx talk at, um, it did, uh, for the University of Cincinnati, um, that I think that was ran by Professor Matthews, now that I think about it. He, he kinda weaves in and out of this, this story, uh, ,

Grant Freking: (23:47)
He's, he's everywhere, man.

Ryan Gaffney: (23:48)
Yeah, yeah. All at once. Um, yeah, so I, I gave this, this, uh, TEDx talk about, uh, my research on omission neglect. And, um, I'm, I'm honestly, I'm still researching that. So I'm coming out with a, uh, a chapter to be published in August on the same topic. Um, so, uh, yeah, that, that was kind of my time at, at, in the PhD program. Uh, that was another four years of my life. If, if you're a listener and you're trying to add up how many years I spent at, at Cincinnati, it's too many. Uh, but, uh,

Grant Freking: (24:21)
Well, and part of the, yeah. Part of the PhD program is also you're making the transition from student to instructor, right? And so, uh, I know there was a couple other professors that we haven't mentioned yet that had an influence on you, that a couple other marketing professors where you were, you served as a TAs for.

Ryan Gaffney: (24:41)
Absolutely. Um, I, there's two professors that really changed how I thought about teaching. And, uh, the, the first one was, uh, Jane Sojka. Uh, I, I was her ta and she, she was teaching Introduction to Marketing, and we're talking these large classes, right? I mean, auditorium sized classes. And it, it just astounded me how she taught. And she always knew her student's name, and there's probably 400 different students in this course, and she always knew the student's name. And she always thought about, you know, these questions or concerns that students had from the student's perspective, and just the amount of like, active empathy that she had for these students. Um, and how how motivated she was for these students to succeed really impacted how I teach even now. And so, you know, even even here at Vanderbilt, I, I think to myself, you know, maybe one day I can be half as good a as Professor Sojka. I mean, she's really a, a rockstar, uh, all, all-star, um, professor. And so, um, she, she really had a, a large impact on, on how I teach and, and really has shaped, um, my teaching program here at, here at Vanderbilt. Um, yeah, so shout out, shout out Jane Sojka. She's, she's listening now. But the, uh, the other professor that I I worked with as a TA was, uh, James Kellaris. Uh, I'm, I'm not sure. He just retired.

Grant Freking: (26:04)
Yes, yes. Unfortunately. So, but yes, he had a long, great career.

Ryan Gaffney: (26:07)
Yeah. Yeah. And he, he approached it from a, a very different angle, and so he also had just a ton of students. Um, but he was really good at being efficient with his assignments. He never assigned busy work. Um, every, everything he said or assigned all had purpose. And so it was incredibly efficient. And, uh, what what was really neat was with that efficiency, he had so much more time, um, to really, you know, put himself in the shoes of the students or, um, you know, really, you know, give back in terms of teaching or individual, uh, mentorship, uh, to, to the students. And, and so the, just this efficiency of, um, disseminating knowledge was just, you know, unparalleled for James. He, he is the best at it, and I, I think most people would agree with that. So, um, both of these professors, um, are people that I look up to still today, um, when it, when it comes to teaching and, um, have, you know, entirely shaped how I teach here at, at Vanderbilt. So, uh, like you said, um, going from student to instructor, that's what the PhD program's all about. And these two had a, a massive impact when it on me, when it comes to, um, how I teach today.

Grant Freking: (27:20)
So. Sure. Now that, that we've completed your, your long winding academic journey, I want to go from a little bit of like a a thousand foot view and maybe some general advice, tips and tricks from your years of accumulated wisdom for both current Lindner students and perhaps perspective let students about college in general, navigating Lindner, and just kind of getting through school in general.

Ryan Gaffney: (27:43)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so just starting from a kind of a university perspective, and I'll kind of narrow down to, to Lindner here. Um, you know, I, I should start by saying, uh, my, my nephew has just enrolled into the University of Cincinnati, and so, uh, it's kind of a full circle moment for me. Uh, you know, he's, he's experiencing his first year and, you know, there's a lot of, uh, similarities, a lot of overlap. And, and so, um, a lot of this advice is fresh, uh, is what I'm saying. Uh, but the, the first thing that I would recommend, um, you know, if you're a first year or, you know, soon to be first year, right? Um, definitely look at, uh, clubs, uh, or, or different hobbies, right? Um, that are available at the University of Cincinnati or available within Lindner. I always recommend to choose one professional club and one, uh, like passion club, right?

Ryan Gaffney: (28:37)
For, for example, I'll give an example for me. Uh, I, I joined the American Marketing Association for my professional club. That was something that I was interested in. It gave me the ability to network. Um, I'm, I'm very introverted, believe it or not. Um, however, uh, you know, joining these kind of clubs, being around these people, uh, it allows you to naturally kind of connect with individuals. And I, I still keep in touch with people, um, that I met from a MA today. Um, the other club that I was a part of was Colleges Against Cancer. Um, I was really big into, um, you know, raising money for the American Cancer Society. Uh, you know, that that was the, I spent my three years of undergrad, uh, you know, completely enthralled into this, this club, this hobby. And, uh, eventually that led to, uh, tobacco free uc.

Ryan Gaffney: (29:28)
I don't know if that's still a thing over there, but, uh, you know, that that club, uh, when I was president, authored that bill. Um, and, and so that was a, a big moment for us. We raised over a hundred thousand dollars, you know, so that, that was something that, um, really helped me outside of, you know, my, my career path, my career pursuits. And I, I think that's important because, you know, you'll have bad days when it comes to classes. You'll have bad days when it comes to networking or your career path, but when you can.

Grant Freking: (29:57)
mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (29:57)
You know, kind of put that to the side, you know, for, you know, a day or, you know, for a meeting, um, I, I think that gives you enough, uh, breathing room to, you know, kind of pick up, you know, where you left off. Um, but yeah, so I, I don't know if that makes sense. I, I feel like maybe

Grant Freking: (30:14)
No, that's, it's all, it's all very cogent, uh, and potent advice, I think, and, and it's pertinent. And I think another point, I think to wrap up, uh, our conversation is sort of the impact and reiterating the impact of your experiential alerting opportunities. Um, many of which you've mentioned the study abroad, the lab work, the co-ops and internships. The other ones maybe that we probably didn't even get to, um, because at the end of the day, I think college is about building the foundation for your career. So tying a bow on it, what, what sort of closing statement can you offer to the impact of the experiential learning opportunities that Lindner can offer and how they've, how yours and impacted you?

Ryan Gaffney: (30:56)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, that's a great question. Uh, at, at the end of the day, you know, college is about building the foundation for your career. I mean, that's, that's why we go to college, right? Um, however, it is also the best time to explore and try something new. And I, I really believe that, um, you may never have this much freedom again to experiment with what comes next. Um, you know, for me, I can't sign up for a study abroad, um, that, you know, I've.

Grant Freking: (31:23)
mm-hmm .

Ryan Gaffney: (31:23)
too many obligations, too many responsibilities at home. I I'm sure it's the same way for you Grant as well. You, uh, I'm sure Lindner has you doing a lot over there. You, you do a lot for the students. Um, so you have this freedom, um, use it, right? Why not make the most of it? So, you know, if, if you're interested in, uh, operations management, go see what the hubbub is about in Asia and how they deal with manufacturing.

Ryan Gaffney: (31:48)
You're interested in international business and, and how startups work, um, you know, try your, you know, talk to Professor Matthews. I, I think you said he's still doing that, that study abroad. Talk to him and see if that study abroad makes sense. And the really neat thing is, if it does make sense, Lindner has a way of making it happen for you, right? If it's something you wanna do, Lindner can help you get there. And I, I really appreciate that that's something that's special at, uh, universities, uh, especially for undergrads. That definitely does not happen at other universities. Um, you know, lastly, I, I know a lot of listeners are probably not thinking about their PhD, Grant. I I don't know if, if that's true, but, um, ,

Ryan Gaffney: (32:32)
Um, if, if you are interested in research, you know, try your hand at it, uh, reach out to the, the behavioral lab, uh, I'm sure that they're hiring. Um, they're always interested in bringing on research assistants. Um, and, you know, last but not least, uh, you know, take that class you're unsure about. You know, for me it was marketing. I, I didn't even think I wanted to go into business, but I took that marketing course. Um, I found out that like, oh, this is the thing I wanna do for the rest of my life, and it brought me here. So you never, you never know what might end up shaping your future. For me, it was that class. Um, for you. It could be, you know, a journalism class, you know, uh.

Grant Freking: (33:13)
And you could grow up just to be like me. Yeah. .

Ryan Gaffney: (33:16)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (33:18)
All right. Well, my thanks to Ryan Gaffney for joining me today on Bearcats Mean Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
The Grau Center for Professional Selling, which sits within the Lindner College of Business Marketing Department, combines classroom teaching with experiential learning to create unique sales-focused academic and real world learning opportunities to all students. We develop graduates who are extremely prepared for a successful sales career.

Grant Freking: (00:16)
One of those opportunities, the Spring Sales Expo is quickly approaching, slated for Wednesday, March 5th, at Tangeman University Center's Great Hall on the campus of the University of Cincinnati. The Spring Sales Expo is an opportunity for students to engage with employers about co-op, internship and full-time and part-time openings. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing, the Carl H. Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. Joining me today to talk about the Spring Sales Expo and all things sales at Lindner are Jennifer Barlow, the Grau Center for Professional Sellings executive director, and Sophie Legue, a fourth-year student at Lindner studying marketing and professional selling. Jennifer and Sophie, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Jennifer Barlow: (00:59)
Thank You. Happy to be here.

Grant Freking: (01:01)
Glad to have you. So sales center, I'm gonna talk to the executive director first. Jen, tell me all about the sales center. What's the who, what's the where, what's the when, why there's plenty of stuff going on right now. What do the people need to know?

Jennifer Barlow: (01:12)
Absolutely. So we've been around since about 2011. Uh, the great thing about our program is that we are drawing students from across campus. So not just business students are taking our classes, but we've got students coming from A&S, from DAAP and Engineering. So it makes the classroom conversations really diverse and interesting when you have an international business students sitting next to a ballet major with a civil engineering student. Um, it just really makes for great conversations.

Grant Freking: (01:39)
Yeah. Truly interdisciplinary as we'd like to say in the academic world around here.

Jennifer Barlow: (01:43)
There you go. Absolutely. Yes.

Grant Freking: (01:45)
And so what are, and so what are some of the opportunities, I just read one off in the intro. Do students have to get involved and get critical career experience?

Jennifer Barlow: (01:52)
Yeah, so we do, I work with several, uh, student organizations. Uh, one is our sales leadership club, um, and then our elite club, our varsity sales team, that's the competitive sales team that is traveling to various collegiate competitions. And then our newly launched medical sales club. Uh, 'cause there's an interest from students to get into medical device sales or pharmaceutical sales. So really working with a lot of those students on, uh, bringing companies into the classroom or corporate partners into the classroom. Working on a lot of different activities if it's their elevator pitch, how to have a proper handshake, how to have, make eye contact with somebody. Um, also teaching students how to have very good posture.

Grant Freking: (02:30)
right.

Jennifer Barlow: (02:30)
And confident posture when they're talking with, with strangers and talking with different employers.

Grant Freking: (02:35)
And so they take all these elements and go to career opportunities. Perhaps Sophie, I don't, I think you've already got a job lined up, so maybe you won't be attending the spring sales Expo coming up March 5th. What do people need to know about that?

Jennifer Barlow: (02:46)
Absolutely. So for students, I say please register on handshake ahead of time so I can print your name tags. So the companies that are coming are from a wide variety of industries.

Grant Freking: (02:54)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (02:54)
So we have, you know, financial industries, uh, we have packaging industries that are coming as well as logistics and transportation. So really just wanna expose students to the various industries that are there, a lot of different opportunities. And what I tell the students are that when the, when you're meeting with that employer or that campus recruiter, keep in mind that they're also hiring for other opportunities.

Grant Freking: (03:15)
That's right.

Jennifer Barlow: (03:16)
So if somebody is a digital marketing student or if they are a graphic designer, you know, have that conversation with the employer to see what else might be available if they're not necessarily wanting to go a sales route.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
And Sophie, for students who might be interested in going to the sales expo, what's the experience like as someone who's gone to a couple and plans to go to the one coming up in a couple of weeks?

Sophie Legue: (03:38)
Yeah, so it's a really great experience. I mean, I remember going to my first one and honestly, when you're kind of younger, you don't take it as seriously. At least for me, I was like, I'm a freshman, I have plenty of time. But I would encourage, even if you're a freshman, sophomore, going to really try and make connections, network, building your network earlier than later is gonna be very beneficial when you're, I know internships are now required for the incoming freshmen.

Grant Freking: (04:04)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (04:05)
So it's great to get your foot in the door, even if they're only looking for sophomores, juniors, getting your foot in the door, making your name known to some of these companies, like early on, is gonna help you in the long run. So I say just make the most of your experience, try and make it to every single company if you can, and be open to different opportunities and different companies because there's a lot out there and um, some really great people to meet. So.

Grant Freking: (04:27)
Sure. And I imagine it also helps break down some of the barriers and of the fear factor that maybe goes along to talking with strangers, but strangers who are also could be offering you a job.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:36)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (04:36)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:38)
Absolutely. And I will say with the sales expo, I limit the number of companies that are there, so I'll cap it at about 50.

Grant Freking: (04:43)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:43)
Because I don't want it to be too overwhelming for students to walk into the great hall and, you know, you hear that buzz, but all that excitement.

Grant Freking: (04:51)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (04:51)
Uh, but it's also from only from one to 4:00 PM and so it's a very tight timeframe, which I think benefits the students as well as the recruiters because people aren't exhausted. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:01)
, right. Yeah. Yeah. There's only so much talking everyone can do.

Jennifer Barlow: (05:04)
Exactly. Yes.

Grant Freking: (05:04)
Three hours sounds good. Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (05:05)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (05:05)
Sophie, let's talk a little bit about the why for how you ended up involved with the sales center and just sales academically in general. So walk me through your academic path and how you got the Lindner and then found your way into the, the, the sales realm.

Sophie Legue: (05:18)
Yeah, absolutely. So actually my older sister went to the University of Cincinnati and I visited a few times and I was like, this is a place I could see myself going to school. So I decided to come here. And, you know, business has been in the family. My parents both work in a business setting, so it's kind of what I've known. And I was like, you know what? Marketing is a very broad, um, major. So I was like, you know what, let's just start with this and see where it goes. And, um, my dad actually is kind of like my mentor. He kind of has been helping me figure out my career path. And when I was talking to him about what I wanted to do, uh, he was like, you know, sales, I have some buddies that are in sales that really enjoy it.

Sophie Legue: (05:56)
'cause you know, I'm a people person. I enjoy talking to people. And, um, I didn't really wanna be sitting behind a computer on an Excel sheet for my career, so,

Grant Freking: (06:03)
yep. It's not for everyone.

Sophie Legue: (06:04)
Um, exactly. So, uh, you know, I, I started thinking about sales and then I declared a sales minor and professional selling minor. And, um, after that, that was around my sophomore year. And then I heard about the varsity sales team and, you know, I was a little unsure, but I decided to go to one of the practices and I ended up loving it. I mean, uh, junior year my, um, second semester I got to, um, compete in the Toledo competition, which I was actually chosen in as an alternate. And the alternate basically is just a backup competitor if the competitors aren't able to compete. But they, I was put in a raffle and I was chosen to compete.

Sophie Legue: (06:44)
And, um, it was the best experience I've had honestly in college.

Grant Freking: (06:47)
Wow.

Sophie Legue: (06:47)
Um, it, I learned a lot from it. I learned, you know, going into that setting is really scary, being with someone that actually works for the company you're selling for. So they really know the product. And I'm sitting here like, you know, I've, I've never done this before, so it was really scary and I didn't have a ton of time to prepare 'cause you know, I wasn't planning on competing. So,

Grant Freking: (07:09)
yeah.

Sophie Legue: (07:09)
Um, but it ended up being kind of like the switch for me when I knew that sales is what I wanna do. I'm like, I could really envision myself doing this as a career. And so the more I, I was on the sales team, I enjoyed it, got very involved. And I competed last semester, um, the spring or fall semester of my senior year.

Grant Freking: (07:29)
Mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (07:30)
And I competed in Wisconsin and that was a really great competition as well. Uh, we were selling Hormel ribbon pepperonis, which was very interesting and fun. Um, and

Jennifer Barlow: (07:41)
It's quite the road trip too.

Sophie Legue: (07:41)
Yes.

Jennifer Barlow: (07:41)
You have to drive up to Wisconsin for that.

Sophie Legue: (07:43)
Yes, it was, it was honestly fun. Lots of practice, lots of time to practice. So, um, that was really great. And then, uh, at the end of the semester I competed in the internal competition and I actually won my room, which is one of my goals that I had set for myself. And, uh, I was named the new student coach. So my last semester, uh, I am the new student coach for the sales team. So, um, just through all that experience, I realized that I'm really interested in sales and kind of what I want my career to be. So yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (08:14)
So a lot of, I mean, I haven't met one person that says I'm going to college to get into sales. You kind of fall into it.

Grant Freking: (08:19)
Sure. Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (08:19)
And so I always encourage students to take one of the professional selling classes because you're always selling yourself. The life skills that the students are learning here is something that you'll just take forever, no matter what business setting you're in, no matter what position you're gonna be holding, you're always gonna be, um, working with salespeople really. Right.

Grant Freking: (08:35)
Yeah, exactly. And I was, my follow up to your question was going to be if her path is similar, where students obviously, like you said, don't necessarily come in wanting to do sales, and then it's sort of like they get introduced to the sales club and the, or the sales team and then they're hooked. Maybe not quite as hooked as Sophie. 'cause she's, you might have to drag her quick and screaming away from this varsity sales team when she graduates . But is that, is that something that's comes up, there's like a similar path where students get involved that way?

Jennifer Barlow: (08:59)
Yes, so it's interesting because we've had quite a number of students that have joined their senior year.

Grant Freking: (09:03)
mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (09:04)
And they're like, dang, I wish I would've known about this sooner. And so we're always trying to get the messaging out about the varsity sales team. It is a lot of work. Uh, they meet weekly for about an hour and a half on Monday evenings in our sales lab. Um, and they're always practicing. And so it's, it's a lot of work, but they also have a lot of fun. And the friendships that they make is, is forever really. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:24)
Mm-hmm . And Sophie, let's transition to some of your experiential learning experience of talking co-ops, internships that you've had. Tell me, tell me about those and, and I think you've already got a full-time job lined up as, as far as I understand.

Sophie Legue: (09:34)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
So let's hear about that too.

Sophie Legue: (09:36)
Yeah, absolutely. So my first internship was with a logistics company and, um, I got a lot of experience, you know, talking to customers and well, potential customers.

Grant Freking: (09:45)
Sure.

Sophie Legue: (09:45)
And just some negotiating skills. So it was really interesting setting, being full time for the first time, being in an office setting. It was very new. I had never done anything like it. So it was a really great start and a really good first, um, first step internship Yeah. To get my foot in the door. So, um, after that, you know, I actually, my current internship, I've been here, this is my second semester, mill craft paper company. I'm kind of in a customer service role right now. I'm getting to work with customers and take orders, learn the computer system, a new CRM system. And it's, um, we have customers coming in every day. I really enjoy the relationship building aspect.

Sophie Legue: (10:23)
Some of the customers that come in, I know a little bit about their life and just different things like that. So something I've really enjoyed. Um, and I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to do for full time. And, uh, I actually know a recruiter from the sales team.

Grant Freking: (10:39)
Okay.

Sophie Legue: (10:39)
Her name is Alicia Flora, and she's a recruiter for Gartner. And I have met her through many events networking with the varsity sales team. And I kind of just reached out to her. I was like, Hey, I'm interested in potentially interviewing with Gartner. And so right after that she set me up on the interview process and I had a phone call with her and I went through the interview process and I actually got the job, which is great, down in, uh, Fort Myers, Florida.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:03)
Awesome.

Grant Freking: (11:03)
Oh wow.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:05)
I know.

Sophie Legue: (11:05)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (11:05)
It'd be nicest time of year.

Jennifer Barlow: (11:06)
mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (11:07)
Yes, exactly. So I'm very excited about that. Um, it's kind of, I wouldn't say a dream company, but it was definitely the kind of company I was looking for and kind of shooting towards.

Grant Freking: (11:16)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (11:17)
So I think I'll have a good long future with them. And I've heard a lot of great things about it. So I'm very thankful to the varsity sales team for all the networking opportunities because I might have not had this opportunity without, without it. So, um, I think that's, the varsity sales team is also really great for networking and meeting, meeting different companies.

Grant Freking: (11:35)
Evidently. Well, congratulations.

Sophie Legue: (11:35)
Thank you.

Grant Freking: (11:36)
And students, yeah. The networking works, especially for the varsity sales team involvement, right?

Jennifer Barlow: (11:41)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (11:41)
What about your sales classes? I wanna hear more about the academic side of that. Could you get, provide more explanation on that? I know that we have a popular one I'm thinking of, but I'm interested in hearing your full full perspective on that.

Sophie Legue: (11:51)
Yeah, absolutely. So the first sales class I've ever taken was, uh, with Dr. Sojka. It was one of my favorite classes I've taken in college so far. She just teaches confidence, teaches you how to sell, like, you know, being confident, the posture, everything that Jennifer was talking about, earlier, it's just a really great first class and it, it really gets you excited about sales. And Dr. Sojka teaches you don't have to be going into sales to learn about sales. It's important, like Jennifer was saying, you're always selling yourself. And, um, yeah. So that was the first class that I.

Grant Freking: (12:27)
mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (12:27)
I had taken. And then I took a strategic selling class, which we actually got to do a case study at the end of the semester and kind of sell, uh, whatever product or service we were doing. And that was, yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:39)
Yeah, another, another hands-on learning experience.

Sophie Legue: (12:40)
Yes.

Grant Freking: (12:40)
is what I'm gathering. Yeah.

Sophie Legue: (12:42)
Yes, exactly. And that was a really great experience as well. And then now I'm currently in an insight based selling class.

Grant Freking: (12:48)
Okay.

Sophie Legue: (12:48)
Which is, um, kinda like the sales team. We do, uh, role plays, sales call, role plays. So it's a very different class, but I really enjoy it. 'cause, you know, I, I love doing role plays and practicing the selling experience. So, uh, doing that for a class is, it's challenging 'cause it is a little bit different than what we do on the sales team, but it's, it's a lot of fun and it's a new experience and you really deep dive into the real experience of being in a job and learning different selling situations. So, um, all of these classes have been really amazing and honestly they're, I know it's cheesy, but it, they're my favorite classes I've taken, so.

Grant Freking: (13:26)
mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (13:26)
That's not cheesy at all. , that's what we like to hear.

Grant Freking: (13:28)
Yeah.

Jennifer Barlow: (13:28)
I'll say the insight based selling class is the most advanced class that we have, and the intention of that is to be doing all these sales simulations. And so they'll be doing like three or four throughout the semester.

Grant Freking: (13:39)
Okay.

Jennifer Barlow: (13:39)
Um, and most of the students that are taking that class will be going into a sales role upon graduation. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (13:45)
Interesting. Mm-hmm . Now, how do all of this, how does all of this hands-on experiential learning opportunities translate to the new sales lab we have up in the building that I think is being dedicated the same day of the sales expo? So you set yourself up for quite the busy day there?

Jennifer Barlow: (13:57)
Absolutely. Um, we're very excited about that. Um, yeah, so the sales lab is on the third floor. Uh, we have 10 small rooms, 10 like breakout rooms.

Grant Freking: (14:05)
Mm-hmm .

Jennifer Barlow: (14:06)
Six of those have cameras in there, and we're able to record a lot of these different activities that the students are participating in. So the varsity sales team is there every Monday night. Sometimes they're recording their role plays, preparing for Toledo or the National Collegiate Sales Competition. Um, other times it's a class that's in there. And so we're recording the sales simulations and elevator pitch, possibly mock interviews. The students are able to see themselves on video, good or bad. Um, it is scary, I understand that. But they learn a lot from when they see themselves, um, the feedback how many times you say, um, yeah,

Grant Freking: (14:39)
Yeah. The, yeah. The tape doesn't lie in those scenarios. So it provides very clear, I think examples of, you know, it's like me listening back to this when, when I need to edit out a podcast episode. Right. It's just very clear of like what you need to improve on so there's no shying away from it.

Jennifer Barlow: (14:51)
Absolutely. And it's just a really great way for the students to improve their skills.

Grant Freking: (14:55)
Right. Okay. We'll end with this. We got a recruitment plug. We need more varsity sales team members. 'cause some of the key members, like, it's like Sophie are graduating out. So Sophie, why should underclassmen or even prospective students who may be listening to this podcast consider and, uh, joining the varsity sales team, even if they don't necessarily want to go into a sales related employment field post-graduation?

Sophie Legue: (15:17)
Yeah. So I think that younger students, freshmen, sophomores, should get involved early. That's something I do regret a little bit, not getting involved sooner. So I think even if it's something that you're like, I don't know too much about this, joining the varsity sales team would be a great option. First of all, you can meet a lot of people get really good experience. Um, and, you know, maybe you start out just competing in the internal competition just here at UC, but then if you stay on the team a little bit longer, you can go and compete at Toledo or the national competitions that we have. So you can really see your progression and your growth a lot more. And, you know, a lot of people only join their junior year. Like me, I, I joined my junior year and I'm like, I wish I would've known about it a little bit sooner. Your progression that you'll see joining sooner is really gonna pay off in the long run. And, um, also I think I learned a lot about interview skills through the sales team as well. So I think,

Grant Freking: (16:11)
And those are applicable to all majors no matter what you're graduating with.

Sophie Legue: (16:14)
Exactly.

Jennifer Barlow: (16:14)
Mm-hmm .

Sophie Legue: (16:14)
Exactly. So, you know, being in that professional setting with an executive person sitting across from you, it's a scary moment. Interviews are scary, but I really did learn a lot of great skills from, uh, the sales team and just being able to talk to professionals and, and that kind of thing. So, um, you can just get a lot. There's so much that you get out of the varsity sales team and, uh, I, I highly encourage young students to get involved.

Jennifer Barlow: (16:38)
Well, and the other thing with varsity sales team and with the various activities that we have in the sales center, I'm always bringing our corporate partners and employers into the classroom to work with all these activities, work with the students constantly. And so our, the employers are having a great face time with the students and the students are getting more comfortable in speaking with recruiters and, and developing that confidence. And with the Varsity sales team, you're gonna keep seeing those same people again and again as they're getting more involved, um, with our students.

Grant Freking: (17:06)
My thanks to Jennifer and Sophie for joining me today on Bearcats Mean Business. Remember, the Spring Sales Expo will be held Wednesday, March 5th, in Tangeman University Center's Great Hall on the campus of University Cincinnati. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. In true sales fashion, I'm gonna let Jennifer have the last word before we sign off.

Jennifer Barlow: (17:31)
Absolutely. I would encourage everybody to take a sales class, take that professional selling class, learn some of these skills, um, it's life skills and you're always selling yourself. And also join the varsity sales team.

Sophie Legue: (17:43)
Yes,

Jennifer Barlow: (17:44)


Sophie Legue: (17:44)
.

Grant Freking: (17:44)
Thanks again for being here. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Learning is a lifelong pursuit. Whether you're seeking to level up your skills, pick up a credential or pivot into a new industry, Lindner's graduate program offerings can help you achieve your goals. My name is Grant Freking, Manager of College Communications and Marketing at the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business. And this is Bearcats Mean Business. My guests today will shed light on the graduate student experience at Lindner, why they selected Lindner for the next phase of their academic journey, their personal and professional backgrounds, and much more. Let's meet our guests. Lucas Lodato is pursuing a Master's in accounting while Bob Clark is seeking a master's in finance and a graduate certificate in real estate. Lucas and Bob, welcome to Bearcats Mean Business.

Lucas Lodato: (00:41)
How you doing?

Grant Freking: (00:42)
I'm doing great. How are you, Bob?

Bob Clark: (00:43)
Good, good. How are you?

Grant Freking: (00:44)
I'm doing great. I appreciate both of you again for joining me. Now let's get a handle on your respective backgrounds and how you ended up at Lindner. Bob, I'll start with you. You accumulated a great deal of private industry experience before deciding to return to school. Why, why'd you decide to come back?

Bob Clark: (00:59)
Well, yeah, I do have, uh, quite a bit of previous work experience. So I just turned 40, um, my wife when about the same time that we decided to have start a family, um, decided to go to medical school and just, uh, recently she was accepted to a surgery fellowship at UC.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
Awesome.

Bob Clark: (01:23)
And that event kind of gave me the opportunity to, I guess, put my head above water and think, you know, what do I wanna do for the next 20 years? You know, everything had been focused on, you know, surviving, you know, raising the kids, getting dinner ready, making sure that, you know, she could do all her studying and prepare for exams. Um, balancing that with my work, once she matched into a surgery fellowship, I felt like, you know, are we gonna move? Like, what's, what's the best next direction for me? I also have a background in physics and mathematics. So while I knew I loved business, um, I was seeking some sort of a way to pull more of that natural economist back into my day-to-day work life. Ultimately, I just decided to take a sabbatical year and, uh, pursue an MS in finance, sort of to give myself the time to think about how to do that.

Grant Freking: (02:25)
Certainly a non-traditional pathway. We're glad you're here. Lucas, your journey is a bit different as well. After graduating with your BBA in accounting from Lindner, you went straight into the Master's in Accounting program. What was the rationale behind that decision?

Lucas Lodato: (02:37)
Well, mainly it was because KPMG, who I'm, or they're sort of waiting for me, so they, they require you to have 150 credit hours to start as a, as a audit associate. And I didn't really know about the whole 150 credit hour thing until it was sort of too late to either do a double major or anything like that while I was an undergrad. And, you know, once, once I looked further towards it, it was like, okay, well the master's program will help you a lot with getting ready for the CPA exam and just furthering education for things that'll look good on your resume. Um, and you know, I loved it here in undergrad. I had no complaints about the program and, you know, I wanted to stick around for a little while longer. Uh, I got, uh, my girlfriend is a year younger than me. She goes to Ohio University. So like, it all sort of worked out well where we, you know, that way we're all, we're both kind of done with school at the same time now.

Grant Freking: (03:26)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (03:26)
And we could sort of move forward with what we wanna do as a team, you know, as a duo together in the same time span. So it works out, you know, I, I like it here. I didn't want to leave . I wanted one more go around.

Grant Freking: (03:40)
All right. Again, we have, we appreciate you sticking around for another year too, and hopefully, and this, this will be a boon to your professional career as well. And, uh, Lucas, I'll stick with you. Walk me through how you navigate day-to-day life as a graduate student so we can sort of paint a picture for listeners on and potential future students on what it's like to be enrolled in a master's program at Lindner.

Lucas Lodato: (03:58)
Yeah, I mean, it's no different than being an undergrad, really. Um, for me personally, I'm also a graduate assistant, so I have two days a week where I'm in the accounting lab. Uh, it's a great resource for anybody that's looking for help. Um, it's actually something that I didn't really even know about before I became a grad student and started working down there. But, uh, you know, that gives me a lot of time whenever students aren't coming in to help me knock out other work that I have to do either, you know, schoolwork or work for my, um, for my faculty member. But, you know, it's just like any other program. If, you know, if you've gone through undergrad, you're gonna be fine with going through master's. It's just different classes, uh.

Grant Freking: (04:33)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (04:34)
You know, you gotta take 30 credit hours worth of classes, so, you know, you take 15 and 15 or, you know, 12 and 18, however you wanna do it. And it, it's really not too bad. There's a lot of options available, a lot of online, different specialty things. Um, it's, it's really similar to undergrad in my eyes.

Grant Freking: (04:52)
Sure. And Bob, aside from, uh, the children aspect of, of your existence, how is, uh, your day-to-day life as a graduate student, uh, at Lindner? And we spoke off air before we recorded about how you were thinking about doing online, but the tour of the building sort of convinced you to do in person here at Lindner?

Bob Clark: (05:09)
Yeah, I, uh, when I thought about taking a sabbatical to study, um, I looked at different finance programs online. I actually came here and met with the director who gave me a tour of the building. I was explaining earlier, and when I saw the building, I thought, um, like, I have to be here. Uh, this is gonna be a great place to learn. That was a fantastic decision. Um, I love the university environment. Having, you know, spent 10 plus years working out of school. For me, it was exciting just to be free to learn to pursue your thoughts and your curiosities really without constraint. To take the classes that you want to take to be able to, through the exposure to faculty members and all the sort of brilliant people that you find at a university to ask questions, to seek out mentorship, um, that was, that was like a huge draw to me.

Bob Clark: (06:07)
I felt like doing it online, of course you would get some of that, but, um, it, it's hard to replace an in-person experience. Um, as far as like, you know, graduate school, I think, uh, one thing's always stuck out to me. So I went to graduate school at Kelley uh, school of business at IU and my program director there, I, I went there like Lucas right out of undergrad. Um, I'll paraphrase, but essentially what he said to my cohort when we started was, you know, you guys have all been used to being the top student or getting the best grade, being prepared for every exam. And everyone around you, if you look around, has been in that same position. As you move through life, as you progress in your company, you'll only feel that pressure more and more and more. And so our job here, my job, is to sort of get you ready for the real world.

Bob Clark: (07:07)
And in the real world, there's always gonna be someone smarter. There's always gonna be people who are willing to work harder. There's gonna be others who are willing to sacrifice their friends or their family for their career. You'll have too much reading assigned to get it all done. You'll have too many exams to feel totally prepared, and you need to be able to figure out how you are gonna manage your time because when you go out and get a job at a great firm, no one's gonna do that for you. And so you're gonna start to learn how to do that, uh, right now. And I don't know if that's advice or it was just a nugget of wisdom, but, um, it's something that stayed with me for the rest of my life. And I think for some people maybe that creates stress. So graduate school, uh, like college I guess can be a stressful experience, but it's also an exciting experience, one where you feel like you really take on a lot of autonomy and at the end of the day you learn that only you can be held accountable for, you know, what you do and how you use your time.

Grant Freking: (08:15)
Sure. We always appreciate keeping it real, too. Lucas, I'll go back to you. How do you feel about how your master's degree program and accounting in your case is preparing you for the next phase of your career? What sort of real world experience is your program providing to you?

Lucas Lodato: (08:27)
Yeah, I think it's a lot of people teaching along the lines of the, the, the CPA exam. You know, obviously the CPA exam classes that you could take that's alongside with Becker and you can get that taken care of while you're in school. Uh, that was a big attraction to the program for me. It's just actually like forcing myself to study and be on the right track and get a grade for it. Um, and you know, a lot of the professors that are teaching master's programs are people who have been there and done that, you know, hold the credentials and, and can give you that sort of advice to, to get where you want to go. Um, you know, I was fortunate enough to have enough college credits coming outta high school, uh, where I could take a semester off in undergrad here and not be off track.

Lucas Lodato: (09:09)
Um, so I was able to do that internship with KPMG and they wanted to have me back. So, um, definitely do that as an accounting student. If you can, get as many internships in as you can, especially if you could do it during the busy season like I did, if you have enough credits where you could take a semester off, definitely do it. It's, it's a good thing to know as you're going through the rest of your schooling, like, what can I expect once I get out? Do I find a place that it, that I enjoy? Maybe you go into audit and you hate it, maybe you go into tax and you hate it. Right? There's a lot of options for you to go through with, with an accounting degree. Um, and so it's good that while you can find your way before you're more or less sort of stuck in it, you know, and you're, you're.

Grant Freking: (09:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (09:54)
In there full time and you don't have as much flexibility.

Grant Freking: (09:57)
Sure. An accounting co-op, an accounting internship during busy season puts the real, I think, in real world experience.

Lucas Lodato: (10:02)
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Bob Clark: (10:03)
Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:05)
Bob, what, what about you? What sort of a real world experience would you say you're getting through the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (10:11)
Um, you know, the part of the, what drew me to the finance curriculum was that it was, you know, there's a breadth of classes that you can take. Um, I was naturally interested in investments in portfolio management. I didn't really know how to tie that directly to my previous work experience. So I've worked building startups. I used to work at PricewaterhouseCoopers, um, and I've run and built a construction company over 10 years. But like I said earlier, I kind of have this mathematician, you know, inside of me. And I wanted to feel like, how can I do something more analytic, more quantitative? But that still leverages that experience. It took me a while, uh, but eventually I realized through taking my courses that I was really interested in alternative investments, and I discovered real estate as an investment asset class that would allow me to, you know, sort of leverage my experience in construction and marketing and business in general with, you know, what I had interest in finance, you know, analyzing and thinking about a deal so I could sort of, you know, whether it's new development or a value add transaction. I realized that real estate, you know, sort of provided me this opportunity to leverage everything I've done and couple it with some new found sort of finance skills.

Bob Clark: (11:34)
That's when, um, I decided to add the real estate certificate at Lindner. And so I feel like that has, you know, totally prepared me, you know, to move on. I think there are a number of roles that, you know, I can pursue now that I I, I either wouldn't have known were available to me, uh, or I wouldn't have even thought about.

Grant Freking: (11:58)
Sure.

Bob Clark: (11:58)
So I feel like it's really given me a very clear vision about what the opportunities are that I have in front of me.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Sure. Now, neither of you are native Cincinnatians. Bob, I'll start with you. How do you find living Cincinnati and the UC campus in general?

Bob Clark: (12:14)
Um, so for, for all the listeners, uh, I grew up in Indiana, so I'm a Hoosier. Um, I moved to Cincinnati, so close to Indianapolis. I spent a lot of time in Bloomington, lived in Indianapolis a couple of times. Um, I came to Cincinnati periodically growing up, mostly to watch Reds games. Um, had an uncle, still do, that lives here. Uh, but I always thought of Cincinnati, even when I worked at PWC and had clients here, I just thought of another city like Indianapolis or like Columbus. It wasn't till my wife and I with our kids moved here a few years ago, uh, that I realized that Cincinnati's a really unique place. Um, it's a older city and it's more of a federation of lots of little towns sort of clumped together into one city. Indianapolis and Columbus, they, they have their different, you know, areas, but they feel much more homogeneous. Cincinnati has a lot of personality and a lot of character, a lot of old buildings. You sort of get a sense as you drive through town that you're traveling through all these different, unique places. So to me, uh, that was something that surprised me and I really enjoyed, I think Cincinnati has a certain cosmopolitan feel, maybe if you want to call it that, that some of it's the cities that it's often compared to, in my experience, don't have. So, uh, that's been great. I, I love Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (13:45)
That's great. Yeah. As someone who grew up in the suburb of Cincinnati, I wasn't even aware of all the different character between the neighborhoods until I actually moved within city limits. And it is fascinating to get that picture and you can just almost tell just driving through the different neighborhoods, as you mentioned, Bob, of the different identities that each of the neighborhoods have. What about you, Lucas? What have you, what have you learned through your time here?

Lucas Lodato: (14:04)
Yeah, I, I, my family's originally from Long Island, New York. Then we moved to Cleveland for the majority of my childhood growing up. Uh, I lived on the west side of Cleveland in the suburbs. And then when came time for school to, for college, I visited a couple schools, didn't really, didn't really enjoy them. And then I came down here and I remember on my visit, like being able to like walk onto the football field. And that being like, that's really crazy to me. , like, how cool is that? Um, and so when I committed to come here, it wasn't, I didn't really know much about the city, you know, growing up, you're four hours away from it. Everybody in Cleveland says, oh, Cincinnati, it's just part of Kentucky, basically, you know, there's nothing down there. Uh, and then you actually move down here and you're on campus and you sort of broaden your horizons a little bit outside of Clifton in this area. And you realize like there's some really cool stuff around like that Cleveland doesn't have like. And I'm not like a Cleveland for life or like a lot of people from up there are, you know, I, I find my allegiance more towards New York anyway. 'cause it's where my, you know, my family all grew up.

Grant Freking: (15:12)
You are wearing a Yankee hat.

Lucas Lodato: (15:12)
I am wearing a Yankee hat today. Yeah. A big Yankee fan. Um, but I have merit, that's what a lot of people try to give me , you know, stuff for, for being a Yankee fan. But I'm like, I was born my, my birth certificates to the city of New York on it.

Grant Freking: (15:26)
But it appears you do have like, at least a soft spot now for Cincinnati, having moved here for a couple of years.

Lucas Lodato: (15:29)
Oh, absolutely. I'm not, I don't plan on leaving here. Uh, you know, I'd mentioned my girlfriend, she goes to Ohio University, and every time I go visit there, I'm like, there's nothing to do here. It's like, there's nothing wrong with Athens. I love it there, but like, whenever we we're here, it's like there's, we could do so many things. There's so much stuff around, and there's still a lot more to learn. I'm starting to get a little more comfortable with things inside the 275 loop. You know, I'm trying to.

Grant Freking: (15:54)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (15:55)
Sort of understand where everything's at, and I have a few ideas on where I wanna move after I'm graduated. But, um, you know, I'm excited to at least start my career here. And, um, yeah, I love it here. It's, it's a great place. I don't really plan on leaving unless if the wind takes us somewhere else, but.

Grant Freking: (16:12)
Sure.

Lucas Lodato: (16:12)
You know, I, I love it here. I don't plan on leaving.

Grant Freking: (16:15)
Sure. We'll close with some recommendations that each of you would give to students considering graduate school at Linder. And Lucas, I'll double up with you and say, what would you recommend to undergrad students since you have that experience as well, but also to graduate students, maybe specific, specifically wanting to pursue the MS accounting program.

Lucas Lodato: (16:32)
Yeah, I found it, you know, super helpful. Like, it, it's been an enjoyable time. It hasn't been like super crazy. You know, I had a lot of anxiety coming in, not knowing about like, how much are these graduate classes gonna really throw me for a loop here? I've, you know, I didn't get to take any undergrad or graduate classes while I was an undergrad. You know, I sort of traded that off for the internship a semester, which I don't regret. Um, but I didn't really know what to expect. Um, I didn't really know anybody coming in. I've made a lot of friends along the way now since we're all, you know, it's just a group of, you know, 10 to 15 of us.

Grant Freking: (17:08)
Yeah.

Lucas Lodato: (17:08)
All in the same sort of classes. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you're thinking about wanting to broaden your horizons, if you're thinking about wanting to, you know, give yourself that extra step. I know now with the CPA requirements in Ohio going down 120 starting next year, that, you know, the, the people like me who need to get to 150 but only graduate undergrad with 120 are sort of going away.

Lucas Lodato: (17:33)
But I would still highly recommend coming to the master's program. It's a, it's a great experience. There's a lot of actual specific, you know, you can indulge into a lot more like specific topics. Um,

Grant Freking: (17:47)
You customize your education.

Lucas Lodato: (17:48)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I, uh, I think it's a great experience. I don't, I don't have anything against it at all.

Grant Freking: (17:57)
Great. Bob, what about you, you, again, we've, we've sort of emphasized your sort of non-traditional background, but what about, I guess, stood out to you that made you wanna pick Lindner besides, I guess the, the proximity and, you know, uh, what advice would you give to students considering the MS Finance program?

Bob Clark: (18:15)
Um, I, I guess this would, would be relevant to students interested in MS Finance, but graduate school in general, um, having, having worked, um, what, what you realize when you leave school is that you leave the dozens or hundreds of faculty that you essentially have free access to as a student.

Grant Freking: (18:39)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (18:40)
Uh, you also feel like when you say study finance, whatever your degree track is, you feel like you're very specialized. And what you realize when you start working is that you don't really know what specialization is yet. Uh, in your work life, you start to work with a group of people who are very focused on like a small set of things within the universe of business. And when you're in school as an undergrad or a graduate student, you have the opportunity, sort of to echo what Lucas was saying, to really customize and to think broadly about what you want to do.

Bob Clark: (19:20)
So it's really a unique learning experience that you are not gonna get anywhere else. You know, you could learn a lot about, you know, fixed income at a bank or risk management working for somebody, but you're not gonna have the chance to sort of build a full view of, say, the financial industry, the full view of all the investment possibilities, um, at a firm that works in a niche or at a bank. You know, you're gonna have to go to grad school, uh, if you want to do that. Um, so I would say if you, if know, love that, if you love learning, if you're really curious, um, if you like to be in school, then I would say it's, it's great. Um, obviously like Lucas, if you have a very specific thing that you have to go to grad school, .

Grant Freking: (20:09)
mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:10)
To get, then you should, you should probably be wise and do that.

Grant Freking: (20:12)
Mm-hmm .

Bob Clark: (20:13)
Um, but yeah, I, I would just say, you know, grad school's a gift. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do and, uh, it should be taken advantage of, uh, by those who are interested in it.

Lucas Lodato: (20:25)
Yeah. And I, I think like, you should do it while you can, while it's fresh, like when you come outta undergrad, if you can. But also, I mean, I think Bob and I are really good examples of the two totally different, you know, sorts of students that are here. You know, a lot of my classes are sort of later evening or in the nighttime, you know, you have the once a week, three hour night classes, and you look around and you see a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life, you know, coming in and maybe they're just taking one or two classes, but it's like part of continuing professional education, or they're just trying to get their master's degree. But you see a lot of people that are coming in and doing it at night or that, that have a couple days a week where they can come in and take classes.

Lucas Lodato: (21:03)
And it actually, it really helps you like broaden your, your sort of contact portfolio there where you can meet a lot of people with backgrounds in industry.

Grant Freking: (21:13)
mm-hmm .

Lucas Lodato: (21:14)
And start to get connections and, and, and, you know, your network grows that way. And I found that very interesting. Or it's not like, you know, when you're in undergrad, you're used to seeing classrooms of 150 people that are all in the same thing as you, especially in like the Lindner core classes. Whereas in grad school, I think the most people that I've had in one class so far is like 15 or 20 maybe for the, for the, um, capstone class so far. There's really not that many people. You can have a very personal experience with your faculty member in each of your classes. Um, and I found that very valuable, you know, to actually get to know these people and what they've done and hear their experience and actually get more of a, you know, tailored education towards you since there's so few people in each of your classes. It's been, it's been really cool.

Grant Freking: (22:05)
Excellent. My thanks to Lucas Lodato and Bob Clark for joining me today to shed light on the graduate student experience at the Lindner College of Business. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing or leaving a five-star review for Bearcats Mean Business on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Thanks for tuning in. Go Bearcats.