Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Welcome Finn. Welcome Bowen. Thanks you both for being here. Um, let's start at the beginning. Your upbringing. Would you guys say your upbringing was defined by brotherly love or brotherly shoves?

Finn Alexy: (00:43)
So definitely brotherly love. I think at this point in our careers, you can't really have the high amount of output and results at this point without it being brotherly love. Like it kind of speaks for itself with the results. Um, I just think that my relationship with Bo and I've described this publicly as well, that it's almost like I'm wearing a suit of armor and it feels like I can't lose because I have this super strong relationship. And even if everything went south, even if all our business business ventures failed, I would always be able to fall back on the fact that I have the best brotherhood and best relationship with my brother in the world. Nice. Hmm. Awesome.

Bowen Alexy: (01:19)
And yeah, exactly the same on this side as well. Uh, Finn and I have grown up together. We've done almost everything together since we were little kids. Um, we have a very similar story, very similar background. And just to be able to do this with him and so much together, it's just been a dream come true, honestly. So

Grant Freking: (01:36)
Was the goal always to get in the business together?

Bowen Alexy: (01:39)
Um, no. Honestly, we, you know, it's Bo in capital was something that kind of just happened. Um, when we were in New York City and we talked to Steven Wang and formed that first kind of handshake deal, um, we needed an LLC to run that transfer through and make that first investment. So Finn and I, forming that together was not something we initially planned long term, but something that we just developed on the fly and then something we just kind of ran with and took off.

Finn Alexy: (02:04)
And in regards to our family's company, it never felt like something that we could fall back on. Mm-hmm . Like even sophomore, junior year of college, it was still like in, its up in its upbringing, I should say. Yeah. And we, we never thought that like, oh, this is the plan post grad. Uh, but then right before graduation and post COVID, it did take off and then we were like, this is the best possible decision we can make.

Finn Alexy: (02:29)
Not only for our family, but for our personal careers and just moving forward. Uh, 'cause our dad needed help, our mom needed help. And then it's, it's really just we want to support them as much as we possibly can. 'cause you see these stories of like, there's no succession plan, uh, founder of a company's work until he is 60 or 70 years old. Right. And we didn't want that to have to be our parents. Like if they wanna work, obviously yes. And we could absolutely use their help, but we didn't want to feel or have them feel forced to kind of work into their late sixties or seventies.

Grant Freking: (02:59)
Yeah. So then the integration to the family business felt more natural for you guys. You never felt like, all right, even after we graduate, we have to do this. It's more like, we want to do this. Yes. Yep.

Finn Alexy: (03:06)
Absolutely. Yep.

Grant Freking: (03:07)
Cool. So what, what was your first like, business or like entrepreneurial memory from when you're younger?

Finn Alexy: (03:12)
So first entrepreneurial memory actually comes from our dad. Mm-hmm . Uh, when we were like 10 and 12 years old. And Alexy Metals first got founded, he actually took a home equity line of credit out on our house and pretty much risked everything and leveraged everything in his own entrepreneurial path. And he bought a skid of braised scrap. And what braising scrap is, I can get an a braising a little bit. It's basically a process like welding where you're connecting two parts in a manufacturing process. But instead of, instead of fusing those parts together, you're applying a precious metal filler alloy. So like gold, silver, platinum, and palladium. And this skid that he bought happened to be gold and there was a gold bra ring in between a ceramic and a metal joint. And then he knew that the gold was in there because at his former job, he had sold that gold bra ring into that component.

Finn Alexy: (04:03)
So he took the risk, bought the skid with no plan on how to get the gold out, which was very risky at the time, especially our, especially for our family. Mm-hmm . Uh, and then he ultimately did figure out how to chemically refine it back out into pure gold, like pure gold bars, pure gold grain. And that is basically the origin story of Alexy Metals. And Bo and I being 10 and 12 years old as he's going on this entrepreneurial path and entrepreneurial journey, uh, we were coming home from school and like crushing up these components in our basement, trying to expose the gold braze alloy to later refine back out and be pure. So we just kind of grew up around entrepreneurship. We grew up around our dad having these like serious ambitions. Yep. Uh, he's been a huge inspiration for us.

Grant Freking: (04:46)
What are like the overall kind of leadership lessons that you've kind of gotten from your father over the years that you maybe you could distill, distill down to like just a couple of them that you kind of take with you and you kind of need something to fall back on?

Bowen Alexy: (04:58)
Sure. Yeah. There's so many, you know, we've watched him for years and we've been around the business from when it first started in our basement, all the way to what it is now, which is roughly a $20 million company. So to kind of see that and kind of grow with him and see the steps he took has just been incredible. Um, and one of my key takeaways since Finn and I manage a lot of the day to day at Alexy Metals is, um, you know, be hard on problems, be soft on people, kind of thing. Like there will be problems, there will be things that come up, you will get frustrated. But it's important to remember not to take out those frustrations on the team. And remember that the problems are what are causing all these frustrations and rifts, you know, it's not the people. So you just gotta be easier on your people. And um, that's something he taught us really early on because these people are working for you and they're here to help you. So to treat them poorly is just not a good thing to do. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:45)
Yeah. Treat 'em all as part of the solution, right? Mm-hmm . Yep. Now Northeast Ohio is not too, too far from Cincinnati, but it's not exactly close. How did you guys end up at Lender and uc? Mm-hmm .

Bowen Alexy: (05:54)
Cool. Yeah. I, uh, answer this one. Sure. Yep. My, um, when I was a senior, um, kind of, I didn't really know where I wanted to go to college. I didn't know what I wanted to study. I was like, is college even for me kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so what I did is I did a big Ohio tour. So I went to Ken Bowling Green, I went to Miami, Ohio State. I went to Cincinnati, I went to ou. I did all the big Ohio schools 'cause I wanted to stay in state kind of thing, uh, in-state tuition and whatnot. Mm. Um, and I toured all these schools and I didn't like bg, I didn't like Miami. Ohio State was like, yeah, we'll let you in, but you gotta spend a semester at our Mansfield campus. And I was like, well, no. Came to uc.

Bowen Alexy: (06:34)
And I was like, wow, this is incredible. I'm like, the campus is amazing, the people are amazing. Everyone I talked to was really nice. And they really sold this vision of like, this is the school for the future. Like next truly does live here. And the people that come through here leave this place and bring something valuable not only to their workplaces, but to the world as well. And, you know, I'm a big fan of red, white, and black, or those are my colors. So it was a really natural fit. And from the second I came here my first day in August, 2020 to when I left, I had a blast. And all the lessons and friendships I forged here are always with me by heart. So,

Grant Freking: (07:07)
Yeah. And the two years since you guys graduated, what have, what have you, what were your main takeaways? I think that what are like the main Lindner lessons, I guess, that you would, you guys that stick with you in your day-to-day dealings?

Finn Alexy: (07:19)
Sure. I would say, and we've actually pitched this and like kind of shared this with some uc classes already. When we're guest speaking, I have two really strong examples, but the first one would be like, I think you can go in upward spirals in your life very quickly. And that's what happened to Beau and I, like, we graduated, we got a article in the News Herald because we were like these brothers that graduated at the same time, like, how did a 22-year-old and a 20-year-old graduate at the same time? How did they start at their family's business? So we did get like an article feature coming right outta college, which is very rare. And then that article feature was actually read by a state senator named Jerry c Serino, and he issued us citations as Ohio's fine as citizens. Mm-hmm . And then because we were named Ohio's fine as citizens, it was this pressure of like, how do we live up to this award?

Finn Alexy: (08:07)
How do we live up to this honor? And then that was the origin of BowFin Capital and the origin of like, how can we justify this achievement? And that's when we reached out to DUB and ultimately became like podcast guest speakers and economists there in the short term while we were speaking on their podcast mm-hmm . And then ultimately angel investors in the company. So it's like, it's crazy how you can just go on an upward spiral very quickly, but that doesn't happen if you're not working as hard as you possibly can every single day. Keeping your mind open to opportunities and also trying to provide value to other people is like my main takeaway from the whole thing. Uh, with our dub example, uh, we basically reached out to them and it was a pitch deck that I had done in Lindner for Derek Schumann's class, uh, digital entrepreneurship where I was like, literally week before graduation, I was scrolling through Instagram reels, like just procrastinating doing an assignment.

Finn Alexy: (09:02)
And I came across this ad for a real startup company and my project in the class was to do a pitch deck on a real startup company. So the company was called Dub mm-hmm . Uh, they were like a innovative stock trading brokerage app where you can copy portfolios of other people or famous investors or famous politicians. So I took them, I did the project for 'em, got an A plus, got a 4.0 GPA in my last semester. And then fast forward to like post Ohio's fine as citizens citations, I was scrolling through my MacBook and like literally just deleting files, like deleting Spanish syllabuses and just stuff I didn't need from undergrad. And I came across that pitch deck and I was like, maybe I should try to send it to someone at dub, send it to 'em for free. And I was like, Hey, this is a college project that I got a a plus on, like if you guys could use this to get venture funding.

Finn Alexy: (09:51)
Absolutely. Me and my brother also have this precious metals background in the brazing and industrial side of precious metals. And one of their portfolios was based around precious metals, and that's how we got the invite to New York City and ultimately the handshake deal to become angel investors. And then when we came back to Cleveland from New York City, our lives were kind of forever changed. Mm-hmm . So yeah, it's just like you can go on these crazy upward spirals and if you provide value to people first, like our dub example where, hey, here's a free pitch deck, here's a social media content, here's venture funding from us, here's unlimited amounts of promotional value, then it's insane how it's reciprocated and it's insane how these things kind of come back to you in a multitude of ways.

Grant Freking: (10:35)
Yep. Yeah. Let's translate that to like maybe like almost like a mentorship thing for like current students. How would you talk to current students or or phrase discussion about like risk and failure and experimentation mm-hmm . Given your journey, your father's journey, and sort of box that into something that would be digestible for like current lit students if you were maybe in your next next guest lecture for them.

Bowen Alexy: (10:57)
Sure. Yeah. We always, when we're given those presentations, uh, end it with like some key takeaways that we've learned. Um, and one of the things that we've learned and what we pitch to students in these classes is that you have to lead with value. Like you have to come in and provide something. Like not just a service, but provide some insights, provide something like maybe they're not seeing, not just in addition to capital. So you gotta form almost like a partnership and provide further value than just, Hey, we're gonna give you some money and then we're gonna be hands off. Like when Finn and I got involved with all of our angel investments, it's, it comes with a strategic partnership aspect and we talk with the founders, give our ideas. If they run with 'em, great. If not, um, it's like, well, you know, just let us know if you need help or if you wanna bounce some ideas kind of thing. But, um, we always say lead with value, you gotta make yourself stand out and that's a great way to do it. Yeah.

Finn Alexy: (11:46)
I would just say the same kind of like upward spiral example. Like everybody in their last semester of college is go going through the motions. So like, the grades really don't matter. I have a job lined up post grad, like they, they don't really care. And I would just tell everybody in class like, start putting your best foot forward now because it's unbelievable how fast you can rise and how fast you can move through the ranks. Mm-hmm . And I would just say like, as much as you could put into something is what you should be doing. Like our prime example, when it was our last semester, I didn't have to get a straight a semester. Like we had a job lined up at our family's company, we didn't have to get good grades, but it was that decision to get a 4.0 GPA in my last semester.

Finn Alexy: (12:27)
That led to me trying on the Derek Shewmon project, which ultimately led to dub mm-hmm . So I would say these school projects and these school examples can turn into real world examples if you put your best foot forward and work as hard as you can. Yep. And Derek Shewmon was one of the classes that we actually guest spoke in, so I was like pointing at a chair and I was like, I literally sat in that chair less than a year ago mm-hmm . And we've turned this story into all of these successes. So you can do the same if you just try as hard as you possibly can, work hard and do the right thing.

Grant Freking: (12:59)
You just never know do you,

Finn Alexy: (13:00)
You just dunno. No, it's

Grant Freking: (13:01)
Crazy. Let's go back to the family business for a second. How do you resolve disagreements and keep things business and not personal when operating the family business?

Finn Alexy: (13:10)
In terms of like, interacting with our employees or Yeah. The family dynamic.

Grant Freking: (13:14)
Yeah. Well, let's touch on that then, the family dynamic after that. Yeah, sure, sure,

Bowen Alexy: (13:17)
Sure. Um, yeah, again, uh, kinda what I said earlier, what Grayson's quote and one of his big lessons is hard on problems, soft on people. Yeah. So, you know, we've had a, a couple of those scenarios where people are having problems or people are frustrated, you know, the work isn't allocated properly. So they've raised those concerns. And what Finn and I have tried to build in our tenure as a culture of collaboration and teamwork, like we're all just helping each other out. If we see someone's overload with work, we step in and help. You know, we make sure everybody's helping. There's no one like, just kind of sitting around while someone's doing all the work. So we've kind of created a culture where, you know, communication is key. If someone's having a problem, we've had a few of these, they can talk to us whenever, call, text, or we can sit down on a one-on-one, we will work together with them and we will identify the problem and help them find a solution. And we've done that a couple times successfully. And a lot of the times it's just, Hey man, you know, I'm working really hard and, you know, so and so isn't doing that much and I kinda need some more help. It's like, all right, we'll talk to 'em, we'll spread the work out kind of thing. So, um, just a real culture of collaboration, teamwork, helping each other out.

Grant Freking: (14:19)
Do you feel like the employees at this point now are comfortable coming to you guys for, for issues like that? For sure.

Finn Alexy: (14:24)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (14:25)
Mm-hmm . Yeah. And so is there anything, um, I'm wondering about past experiences or was it just growing up in the company or other past experiences that kind of helped you guys get to that point of being able to resolve, you know, disagreements like that? I guess like, you know, peacefully not to say like anyone, anyone doing crazy, but sort of like smoothly and kind of like professionally. Sure.

Finn Alexy: (14:42)
I, I think it's more about just earning the respect of the people that have worked there for longer than Bo and I have mm-hmm . Like, especially coming into the company like immediately after graduation, we were putting ex in executive roles. 'cause it's our family's company, we understand the inner workings of it, but some of these people who were say on the production floor are like, oh, those guys don't know what they're doing. Those guys haven't seen the rapid growth. Those guys don't understand how we do this specific job, for example mm-hmm . But me and Bo coming into it knew that we couldn't change too many things at the same time. Like, we were going to make changes and everybody knew that, but we wanted to do it slow and we wanted to respect the processes and the things that they were already doing mm-hmm . And then we approached that by basically being like, Hey, this is how we currently do it.

Finn Alexy: (15:24)
We understand it and we respect that this is how you do it, but how can we troubleshoot it and do it better moving forward. Mm-hmm . So that was kind of the logic there. Uh, we did have to earn our respect too, just based on work ethic as from not only the employees at the company, but also the industry as a whole. Uh, we did work like 14 hour days coming outta college. We worked a 36 hour long shift where a machine went down critical machine. And then once it got turned back on, uh, there was a pile of production jobs that we had to get done and it was sun up to sunrise until they were all done. So that earned a lot of respect there as well. Mm-hmm . And then just our own ventures in BowFin capital and some of the things that we're doing on the side is very easy for people to be like, okay, these guys are serious not only about their career at Alexy Metals, but their career in general.

Grant Freking: (16:10)
Mm-hmm . Yeah. My next question is actually, and you kind of answered it there was like, did you feel the need to prove yourselves, but it sounded like you didn't even need to, you just showed up and instead of just telling them that you're gonna do it, you just show up and do it. Especially when there's a critical situation

Finn Alexy: (16:21)
Happening, and that's the, that's the right way to do it too. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you just start talking, then nobody takes you serious. Yeah. But it's all about getting your, rolling up your sleeves and doing the work yourself. Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (16:30)
Let's, let's expand the scope of the conversation a little bit. What innovations and disruptions, I guess maybe to your, maybe your industry or maybe just business in general mm-hmm . Sort of excite you guys or maybe even concern you a little bit about what's happening in the business world. Sure.

Finn Alexy: (16:43)
So our industry is very traditional manufacturing. It's slow moving. All of our competitors are multi, multi-million dollar companies, hundreds of millions dollar companies or billion dollar companies. So while they are innovating, they're innovating very slowly and they don't feel the need to implement modern technologies into their current manufacturing processes or into how they sell these brazing alloys to their customers. Mm-hmm . So that's really where we've come in and where our data's come in in a lot of ways. Uh, like Bo can touch on some of the innovations with the website and some, some things like that.

Bowen Alexy: (17:17)
Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, in 2020, Grayson and his team at the time launched an initiative to form the first e-commerce platform in our industry where customers can buy product braise alloys, um, even gold and silver we offered at one point, we don't do that anymore, but you could just buy like your shopping on Amazon, you add it to your cart and check out and it's tied to the precious metal markets.

Finn Alexy: (17:39)
Yep. Which was an innovation that has never been done in our industry before. Yep, yep. And there's never been anyone who's experimented with e-commerce either, but it's a very successful, very profitable revenue stream for the company.

Bowen Alexy: (17:50)
Oh yeah. And not too much work. We just have to update the pricings that make sure the inventory's up to date and, you know, but we're gonna really dial that in. That's a big plan of our future expansion and end of 2026 and even 2027, we're gonna get that up and going have it be one of our chief revenue builders. So

Grant Freking: (18:07)
When you guys, uh, do talk to students and, and building, I guess kind of like you tell 'em about the sort of new things that are going on your company with the, the, uh, both in capital mm-hmm . What are some of the questions you guys get in return from them about if they wanna sort of emulate your path or just general advice about kind of like, what's like step one? Um, what are some of like the, I guess the more common responses from like, I guess the current students or like the even people that may reach out to you online or whatever it is.

Finn Alexy: (18:33)
Sure. Like there's a lot of questions about people's, like self-doubt, whether that's starting a company or whether that's like failing at something. Yeah. And our advice to them in, if they're in those moments where they're down is like, okay, in, in those moments you have to flip your thinking mm-hmm . And be like, what if I can pull this off? And then it changes the whole conversation of like, oh, I'm down. I can't figure this out, I can't do this, I can't do that. Yep. But then you flip it and you're like, what if I'm the guy that can figure this out? And then it's just nothing but up from there. It starts one of those upward spirals of thinking and actual momentum like I was talking about earlier. Yep.

Bowen Alexy: (19:11)
And I would say too, like I was involved with a couple clubs and they did goals where you set like, you know, there's, there's an acronym out there I'm forgetting right now mm-hmm . But you do little goals. You don't just say, all right, I'm gonna run this marathon. And you say, all right, I'm gonna start by running one mile today, tomorrow I'll run, maybe try to do two or three. So you start small and I kind of, what I would say is, don't say I have to be here. Just say, I'm gonna do this today. I'm gonna learn this, I'm gonna execute on this. Start small. And little wins contribute to big wins.

Grant Freking: (19:40)
Right. Do you guys recall any like, sort of, I guess, hard truth moments from mentors? Whether it was, you know, an, an instructor here, you mentioned, you just mentioned clubs. Yep. You know, from, maybe it's from your dad or someone in the business about, you know, learning from like hard truth moments. Like, hey, maybe sort saw someone sat you down like, Hey, I need you to fix this and here's what I want you to do. And like, how did you kind of respond to that and sort of take the next step?

Finn Alexy: (20:03)
Sure. Interesting question. Uh, unfortunately no, like there's never been like a monumental mentorship moment. Just a bunch of like little bits and pieces of knowledge that we've strung together into this story. Um, but yeah, it's almost now like we, we don't have any mentors 'cause we've rapidly rose to the level of mentorship ourselves, whether that be giving back to students or like this podcast for example mm-hmm . So it's hard to be asking other people for the answers when you're supposed to be the person with the answers. So I, I would always recommend mentorship and recommend you go find somebody in a more successful position than yourself. But even like career-wise, we've rose to the level of our current mentors. So it's very hard and that there's never been like a wake up call kind of thing for many of these people because it's like we've always found the right steps forward and we've always figured out how to do the right thing and work very hard along the process.

Bowen Alexy: (20:57)
Yep. And, you know, we'd be foolish to not say like, guys in our industry who have been doing it for like 30 years, like our dad, for example, we're not ever gonna not take his advice or not ask him about a situation. So of course he'll be a mentor in a lot of capacities. And even our sales manager, shout out Mr. Craig Chastin wanted to get him in there. Yes, sir. Um, was, you know, they have over 35 years of industry experience. So to not take advantage of that would just be foolish on our end. So

Grant Freking: (21:23)
Yeah. Let's, let's end this with a pitch Sure. For students, um, that are thinking about, um, you know, maybe they're 17, 16 years old and the sim maybe a similar, uh, position where you were, they're taking their tour of Ohio and they're Yep. Trying to figure out what school to lock into mm-hmm . What, what is it about lender that kind of, um, is like the piece, just the piece of your guys', um, journey that you think has helped you? And then what would you say to students that are thinking about maybe duplicating that?

Bowen Alexy: (21:50)
Sure. Yeah. Um, well, when I was a senior too, I remember I took the a ACT couple times and I did some training where I had to rewire my brain to be more academically focused and figure out how to solve problems. And I remember coming to Lindner that really clicked with what I did that prior, that previous summer. Mm-hmm. So when I came in, I had that mindset to just succeed and do well. And Lindner gave me the tools and the chance, uh, to make that happen. Whereas like Ohio State was like, yeah, you're gonna have to go spend a semester at, um, Mansfield campus when uc was like, no, get in here. Do what you wanna do, we're gonna make it happen. And I said, all right. So this was definitely the school. This was the fit. This is the place where, you know, it's on, it's all, it's on all the posters Next does live here and this is where next is gonna thrive.

Finn Alexy: (22:38)
I just going off of like the next steps mm-hmm . Like for, even for the state of Ohio. Sure. Uh, I just think Lindner itself in the college business and uc in general is like a rapidly up and coming university. Yeah. It's probably going to be the biggest university in the state of Ohio in a couple of years. It's gonna overtake Ohio State is what I would predict. Absolutely. And I think Lindner's a huge part of that. Mm-hmm . And just to, for me and Bo to kind of be a part of that like promotion and be a part of something bigger than ourselves is what drew me to Lindner. And that's what kind of inspired us to come back and promote as much as possible. 'cause we did get an immense amount of value from professors here, from students here, uh, from our actual uc education.

Finn Alexy: (23:18)
Yep. Like if you go BO was, uh, marketing major mm-hmm . Minor professional sales, and I was a major in entrepreneurship mm-hmm . And when you combine those two things, you literally have our playbook or blueprint for BO in capital where I can identify startup companies and basically do a valuation on 'em. Mm-hmm . And Bo can provide marketing and customer service and relationships Yeah. After we book an angel investment. So it's like this perfect combination for us to kinda showcase our skills we learned at Lindner, our skills we learned in our family's business and our skills that we learned before. Yep. So I would, you know, obviously stand behind the Lindner College of Business and promote as much as possible. Yep.

Grant Freking: (23:59)
Well, I appreciate you guys making the trip down here today. Thank you for both being on Bearcats Mean Business.

Finn Alexy: (24:05)
Absolutely. Thank you for having us.

Grant Freking: (24:06)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. Jeff, thank you for being here. You grew up in Ohio and you went through the co-op program as a UC business student. What impact did that early professional experience have on the trajectory of your career?

Jeff Karcher: (00:43)
Honestly, everything, uh, really did one just financially enabled me to be able to go to school Yeah. And finish school. Uh, but secondly, I was very fortunate to get a role, uh, at an investment boutique up in Cleveland that introduced me to the institutional equities world, which back in the mid eighties, at that time, that was pretty much an Ivy League dominated industry. And I was very fortunate to work for a very well known and, and just terrific mentor. Uh, that enabled me to kind of just see what, what the business was like. And I really fell in love with it. I had always had an interest in the stock market as a kid. And, um, getting a job, a co-op job in it really kind of accelerated and really kind of confirmed everything that I had thought I wanted to do.

Grant Freking: (01:26)
Jeff, you talked, touched on your co-op experience. For students here going through co-ops. Um, they may not know exactly where they wanna land in finance and capital markets. What advice would you give them about just general exploration, about exploring opportunities in these fields?

Jeff Karcher: (01:43)
Uh, I, I would say follow what, what interests you for one. And you may find out that isn't necessarily what you really thought you wanted to do. Uh, and there's nothing wrong at all with not knowing what you wanna do for whatever reason. I just, I kind of did, but that doesn't mean everybody does certainly. Um, and co-op I think gives you a great opportunity to, you know, find out in more of a test trial kind of fashion, do I like this or not? Do I, do I excel in this Right? Or not too? Um, I was always very curious and always wanted to learn. Um, so for me, um, you know, getting into the industry that I did, one of the kind of interesting things about it's good and bad is you get to learn a little about a lot, but not a lot about a little. Mm. I mean, you get exposed to a lot of different industries, a lot of different sectors, uh, different companies, uh, and how they approach things and running a business, but you never become an expert in any of them. So that's kind of perhaps the downside. But I always thought for me, um, the one thing I liked was being able to understand a, a broader array of, of information and, and sectors. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:43)
What always strikes me is like, you figure out maybe what you don't want to do when you co-op too, which is, I think, so eminently helpful in your career journey.

Jeff Karcher: (02:50)
Accounting. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (02:52)
for you. Accounting For me,

Jeff Karcher: (02:53)
It was accounting.

Grant Freking: (02:54)
Okay. Okay. Let's shift to some topics on capital markets and then your current role with the Texas Stock Exchange. You spent nearly a decade leading listings efforts in the southeast for the New York Stock Exchange. For many people, the IPO process is very mysterious. Right? What actually happens behind the scenes that you can talk about when a company prepares to go public, what are like the top things that maybe people just don't know about,

Jeff Karcher: (03:17)
Uh, getting ready in time? Um, the one thing that companies quite often think of, uh, Hey, let's go public, and then in three months, six months, we're gonna, we're gonna do that. Uh, and that really can't happen that quickly. Um, you really have a lot to prepare for and going public, there's a lot of disclosure you gotta do controls, accounting, uh, audits that have to be done. Mm-hmm . Uh, HR departments, compliance departments, um, there's, there's a lot of things that companies quite often kind of forget about. They're just thinking about, Hey, we make good widgets and innovative widgets, and it's growing like crazy and we're awesome. And they know that very, very well, but they kind of forget about the backside of preparing a business and getting ready for becoming a public entity because it's a different animal. Uh, at that point, you are reporting to shareholders and to the owners of your company, and you have a responsibility for that. And there's a lot of protocols associated with that too. And not, the companies don't always necessarily have a good understanding of that. Uh, there's a lot of really good firms out there that help companies get ready to go public. Um, IPO readiness firms that consult with them and, and say, Hey, here's kinda the stage where you are. Here's the kind of industry and the company that you are will help you get ready. And they make sure that all their ducks are in a row before they go public.

Grant Freking: (04:28)
Okay. And in, in that same vein, what are the biggest misconceptions the actual founders, and maybe the chief would be chief executives themselves have about going public, about maybe what they are responsible for and not responsible for?

Jeff Karcher: (04:44)
Yeah. Well, that's, that kind of gets to one of the bigger picture issues that there's been with companies going public. Um, we're down almost 50% the number of public companies today versus 1997. Wow. 50%. And one might say, well, so what, what, what does it matter if somebody that makes widgets is private or public? Well, the fact of the matter is, public companies average about a third more employees in private companies, and they also pay them more on average. So if you do the math with that, that's better for the economy and everywhere. Um, you just have a greater society with that. And then secondly, or thirdly, you have, um, companies being private, others don't get to share in that growth, in that wealth. Um, I think one example that's gonna be become quite evident soon is you have, SpaceX is gonna go public at $1.5 trillion or something along those lines.

Jeff Karcher: (05:33)
It's a 23-year-old company. Um, why did it wait so long? Yeah. Um, they all have good reasons for it, but what if they had gone public when they were, say 10-year-old company? You know, that 13 years of growth that we've seen, all that wealth, you know, translates into your 401k, my IRA, my dad's pension, my mom's ETF, et cetera. Um, and so you wanna bring more of that private growth and private wealth into the public marketplace. And for us, one of our key missions that we have at the Texas Stock Exchange is to create an, an environment that's less onerous in terms of the reporting disclosures, which is one of the things that they would be responsible for. Uh, the costs associated with being public have become draconian in many cases. It just should not cost as much as it does to go public, but also to stay public. Um, and, um, the, the governance has been weaponized in the marketplace, and we're looking for ways, and we already have changed a number of protocols, uh, in the marketplace specific to the landscape in Texas for public companies to be able to operate under, under a, a more pro-business friendly listing environment. Mm-hmm.

Grant Freking: (06:39)
You just touched on a few of 'em, but I wanna ask like, kind of the overall question related to your position as global managing director for the Texas Stock Exchange. What is the, I guess, chief business problem that the Texas Stock Exchange is looking to solve?

Jeff Karcher: (06:51)
Um, it's really a little bit of what I just just mentioned. Yeah. And the fact of too many companies just don't want to be public or the ones that are, have a great deal of difficulty in operating publicly because of some of the reasons I I just mentioned. Yeah. You've had a transition over really 30 years, uh, and by no one's fault, but just as kind of boiling a frog kind of, uh, increase in terms of regulatory disclosure such that, you know, companies have bear a an excessive burden in many cases of, of reporting and the cost associated with it. So, for example, in Texas this past year, we actually helped author and pass some legislation that really specifically targets some of the very costly and complicated processes for being public proxy threshold, proxy oversight, uh, and then what's called business judgment rule. Um, those three things, I, I won't go into depth here on those 'cause they're, I'm not an attorney and they're very legal.

Jeff Karcher: (07:48)
Um, but they are very, they're people should know. They're just a very costly component to being public. They're very onerous, very time consuming. And so by putting in some thresholds that are specific to, um, being in Texas enlisted there, companies don't have to be subjected to them to the same degree that they currently are elsewhere. So, um, the simple way to think of that is it takes up far less time of management so they can devote it to running the business and can save significant amount of money in, in the larger the company. Perhaps tens of millions of dollars of ongoing costs of a company that come out, um, because of that subjectivity that they would have related to what we're trying to put forth.

Grant Freking: (08:28)
Sure. So what is a day-to-day like for you in trying to fulfill this mission of the Texas Stock Exchange?

Jeff Karcher: (08:34)
Yeah. Well, to date, it's been about just kind of putting together the platform. Uh, we're building it from scratch. Everything. The, the trading exchange itself, uh, has been built from scratch. Um, but also the design of what we call the listings business and the listings is what that is. What a public company, uh, that is public goes through. They are a listing on the current exchange, which in today's world is just two, it's NASDAQ and the NYSE. Right? Uh, we will be a third choice for companies to be able to have that. So for me, we, we've kind of set the stage, we've prepared our platform. Um, some of the key details for it will be filed with the SEC fairly soon so that, uh, the world and companies will know. Um, but for us, it's, it's heads down right now talking with those companies.

Jeff Karcher: (09:18)
And really, it's not selling them, it's just educating them on what we're doing because it is so transformational from what they're used to. You know, anybody in the industry or the business today, the only thing they've ever known is just to compare an NYC to a NASDAQ listing. Now it's a third alternative, and that third alternative has completely different characteristics to it than what they've known. Um, so we're gonna be very focused on engaging with companies in that regard. And, and I gotta say that the challenge for us is gonna be getting that message known outside of Texas, inside of Texas right now, the entire business community knows exactly what we're doing, um, outside, you know, very few people really kind of see it's just not been something that's been talked about nationally as much as it has. So for us, it's getting those doors open and having the conversations. And when we do have the conversations, people are very, very struck by the uniqueness of what is going on. But also too, the magnitude of what's going on. It's kind of hard for them to kind of necessarily fathom this is something that could really significantly alter their ability to operate as a public company.

Grant Freking: (10:23)
Yeah. I, I imagine if you're talking to, uh, a company, say like in Illinois, like, and you're reaching out to 'em, like, they'd be like, okay, that's great, but why should I be interested in this venture that's hundreds of miles away from me? And different, potentially different rules, different states, all that sort of stuff. What's your pitch to them in that's case?

Jeff Karcher: (10:41)
Yeah. Um, that's very true. They say, listen, I'm, I'm in Illinois, why do I care about Texas? Um, and the fact of the matter is, is the, the way it's been designed, it is, um, it's, it's kind of designed to be a, a very Texas incorporated company. So you can keep your business wherever you are, but if you incorporate in Texas and list in Texas, you are then subject to kind of a lot of the changes in the programs that we, we would have to offer. So a company doesn't have to move a single employee in order to garner some of the, the advantages that we're gonna put together. Hmm. Uh, and even still, they don't even have to reincorporate in Texas that just, that just would allow them to be able to opt in and provide some of the, the changes that have been done, uh, and the changes that will be done.

Jeff Karcher: (11:23)
There's, there's several more initiatives that we have coming Yeah. In the 2027 session. Okay. Texas only meets every other year, which is kind of interesting. Okay, interesting. Yeah. Um, so, but it's all part of a multi-year plan to be able to develop and foster further and further changes. Um, but outside of that, the platform that we will have that will be released fairly soon, uh, will be very unique too. And it will be very advantaged to a company regardless of where they're located. Um, I would say some of the interests that's really surprised me is from outside the United States. Um, uh, Canada, Korea, Japan, Brazil, Europe. Um, we've had a lot of inbound inquiries from companies located over there because I think what they kind of see at us and what we're doing, we're very aligned with just the business community in Texas, period bus.

Jeff Karcher: (12:11)
It's a very pro-business friendly state, and as a result, you've seen a significant amount of growth, uh, in the state, both in companies relocating there, but also just the growth of what, what is taking place there. And, and it's not just Texas either. It's really kind of a whole southeast region of the United States, um, is the highest and fastest growth region in population, job growth and, and GDP within the United States. And it's because it's an environment that wants to foster growth, uh, because the companies just need to have that ability to be able to grow without further constraints. Right.

Grant Freking: (12:43)
Let's transition to some leadership topics. Um, your work has involved connecting companies, investors and financial institutions. What leadership or relationship building skills have been most essential in sort of navigating that environment? And I'm sure would've been some tricky waters at times. Yeah,

Jeff Karcher: (13:00)
It's, you know, I think networking is something that, and, and networking is part of it. Um, and relationship building apply to everything. Yeah. Uh, that you do. Um, I can remember the first job that I have in the, the investment industry. Um, we were required to have so many lunches, so many meetings with folks to kind of build a network. 'cause we were also a money management business at the time too. And I just remember thinking, I'm, I'm 24 years old. I, I don't know anybody with any money. I don't know anybody of any stature. How in the world am I gonna build this network, um, and, and be able to thrive off of it and contribute to the company? And it's just bit by bit, by bit by bit and over time, and it just, it takes time. But it's something that I think you just kinda always, always kinda work on.

Jeff Karcher: (13:47)
And the way I've always kinda looked at is if, if I just help whoever I've engaged with or met, that's a connection that I have that will just grow and grow and grow over time. And you just never know where an opportunity for you might come from because of that. Or a situation where you're just helping someone. I don't, I don't, I've never done it necessarily to get compensated for it. It's more like if someone has a problem or needs a connection or needs someone some kind of support, you provide it and you help them, you when they win. And over time they just really kind of builds on itself. And I, I, I think that applies to anybody in any kind of role, in any industry. Even if you're in a very technical industry too. Um, you're gonna learn to share traits in, in the industry. And, um, I think that always just kind of benefits somebody, but if you always look to help the other person, good things will happen in time. Alright.

Grant Freking: (14:41)
Building off that, what have you learned about building trust in high stakes financial environments that's sort of stuck with you over the years?

Jeff Karcher: (14:50)
Um, be honest. Mm. Never over exaggerate. Be very candid. Be very objective. Uh, that way you never have to worry about what you said , you said it's good. Um, and I, I just think that if, if, again, it's, if you're helping somebody, helping somebody, but in, in my case, I think in the industry that I've been is you're helping them do their role. That goes a long way. Um, one, one time I had a, uh, one of my clients was kind of struggling with handling the morning call, which is this massive influx of information that, that a investment manager would have. And, um, I asked, I said, could I spend a morning in your office to kinda see what you mean by that? And he said, yeah, that'd be, that'd be great. And so I did. And so I literally sat in my client's chair and seat that morning to see what he goes through in order for me to understand how I can better process and integrate and work with him.

Jeff Karcher: (15:46)
And, and that was an eye-opening morning one. Some of my competitors I couldn't believe were actually competitors 'cause they were kinda all over the place. Yeah. I'm kind of shocked, uh, but two, it really gave me a very good perspective and understanding of what my client is having to go through that helped serve me better to be able to serve them. And I think that's also something that can apply in any industry. Um, if you better understand, you know, who you're reporting to, not who you're reporting to, but who you're, you know, trying to either sell to or work with. Um, you're gonna be able to do your job better. And what that does, I think is, is that builds trust, um, because they know you've got their back. You know, they're trying, you're trying to help them. Yeah. And, um, and that goes a long, long way.

Grant Freking: (16:27)
You went and literally put yourself in their shoes. I, I love it. You spent decades working with companies at pivotal moments in their growth. What traits have you seen in the leaders who successfully navigate these transitions, these big transitions?

Jeff Karcher: (16:43)
Hmm. Um, probably the one piece of advice that someone gave me a long time, and it it's a, a fairly well known adage is God gave you two ears and one mouth. Hmm. Use 'em accordingly. Uh, I think the best leaders I've seen, uh, for companies did just that. Uh, during times of crisis, they, they learn to listen. What is the problem, what is going on? And then because of their background experience, they're able to process that I think appropriately and, and make the better decisions, uh, being rash, uh, lashing out. Um, you know, being kind of more aggressive. I, I don't think really suit serves anybody well, uh, as a leader, particularly a senior leader at a company and during a pivotal time because, you know, you gotta put yourself in your employee's shoes like that they're concerned too, or your customer's shoes, their concern too. Um, it's just how you help them kind of navigate and get through that is what's gonna ultimately matter. And I just think the only way to do that is deep breath, listen, analyze, figure out your alternatives, make your decision, and then follow through on it.

Grant Freking: (17:46)
Jeff, after decades in the industry, uh, you're now reconnecting with the Cincinnati business community. We talked before airing about some of your, your fun experiences this week in Cincinnati mm-hmm . What role, and we've touched on this a little bit, but maybe you can expand about it. What role has network networking really played in your career and how do you make the use of it use of it now?

Jeff Karcher: (18:04)
Um, yeah. It's kinda what I said earlier. It's helping others Yeah. As networking. And, you know, that for me goes way back to when I was in school here. I mean, I reconnected as I mentioned with several friends and guys here recently. And some of that actually turned into some business related connection opportunities that, um, I'm working on. Who would've thought that, you know, 40 years later, fraternity brother, you know, would've had, you know, something like that that would apply to me today of something that I'm engaged with. You just never know. Yeah. And, and, and vice versa actually too, I'm kind of reversing course with, with another one. Um, but I just think it's like, it's just making friends and, and just being engaged with the people that are around you every day, uh, in the moment. And then in the moment over time, it's a series of moments so that it kind of becomes this large basket of, of relationships. And, you know, for me, a lot of it started back at uc here, um, you know, many years ago. And it, it's great to still have the connections from back then still today that are, that are made, uh, but they're also too making new ones too. So for me, reconnecting here with the university recently has been terrific. I look forward to doing more with the university. It's, it's been fun to kinda walk back here on campus and yeah, kinda see some of the buildings still the same and quite a few different for sure.

Grant Freking: (19:21)
Right. Yeah,

Jeff Karcher: (19:21)
Exactly. Yep. Um, I'd say it's a lot better today than it was 40 years ago. It's, it looks great. Yeah. Um, but it's, uh, you know, to me it's, it's kind of coming home to Roos and perhaps it's just, you know, my older age kind of getting to me that, you know, feels that sentimentality of being able to come back, uh, to uc, uh, and, and help others, um, I think is very exciting for me.

Grant Freking: (19:44)
Yeah. Let's close with some advice to future leaders. When you look at the next generation of leaders that are coming out of the Lindner College of Business, or perhaps elsewhere too, what skills or mindsets do you think will matter most? I guess maybe in this economy and the future economy?

Jeff Karcher: (19:59)
Um, I'm a bit old school Yeah. In that regard, but to me it's a, a firm handshake looking the person in the eye, talking very clearly. Don't mumble, don't trail off. You know, stay focused on who you are engaged with at that moment, um, I think is very important. Um, get your head outta your phone is what I tell my kids. , you know, fight on. So it's not like just the business world is my kids. Yeah. Um, and you know, last night the leadership dinner, uh, event that we had here, one of the, the things I talked about, I said, I can remember two things that p and g taught me when I first got out of school and started that have applied to me forever. Um, my kids make total fun of the, uh, the five Ps that I reinforce with them. But it, it holds very true with, with business too.

Jeff Karcher: (20:45)
It's proper preparation prevents poor performance. Uh, and that applies to everything, to everybody all the time, no matter what. And I think about the times where I failed or, or where I didn't do as well as I could have, um, like this podcast and proper preparation, you know, would've prevented poor performance. I think is is something that always applies. Uh, and it's something I think that perhaps gets forgotten about in today's environment because we've become so short term. Uh, I think with whether it's just the digitization of the world, whether it's through devices or the way we receive information and news flows and communication is very short. We're not reading as much, we're not writing as much as lengthy as we were. Um, I think that's important to really kind of think through and, and be very thorough in everything that you do. Um, and, uh, yeah, so it's a little bit of old school, but at the same time too, you know, the economy in the world has adapted so much that it's become very decentralized.

Jeff Karcher: (21:40)
So, for example, in finance, or most of my career, New York was, was it, that was the centralization of if you were involved in finance, it was New York period. Today, that's not the case at all. In fact, one of the things we talk about at the Texas Stock Exchange is JP Morgan has more finance employees in Texas than they do New York today. Um, many other firms are getting along the same kind of ratio too. That would've been un unimaginable years ago. Um, so as people think about their careers and what they're looking for, just know that it, it does change. And it's just because it is the way it is today doesn't necessarily, it's gonna always be that way. So keep an open mind to that. Um, but if you stay, stay focused, show up, do your job, you know, and just be very disciplined, um, success will come.

Grant Freking: (22:28)
Okay. Last one for you. If you could give your younger self, your younger Jeff, who is co-opting here at uc, uh, years ago, um, if you give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Jeff Karcher: (22:40)
Deep breath. Most daily hiccups are just that they're daily. Okay. And they're hiccups.

Grant Freking: (22:45)
Deep breaths. That's it. Love it. Yeah.

Jeff Karcher: (22:48)
I let myself get caught up in the moment too many times too quickly without taking that deep breath, pausing, reflecting, thinking about what really should be thought or, or what actions should be taken after that. Um, I don't think it ever hurts to deep breath count 1, 2, 3 and then try to respond,

Grant Freking: (23:06)
Think that applies to everything in life and not just business. Yeah. It's sound advice. Well Jeff, thank you for being here. Thanks for being on Bearcats Me Business. Alright.

Jeff Karcher: (23:12)
Thank you very much too.

Grant Freking: (23:14)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. Amanda, welcome. Thank you for being on Bearcats Mean Business today. Busy week for you. I know,

Amanda Wait: (00:36)
Yeah, my pleasure to be here.

Grant Freking: (00:38)
Let's talk about your job, just like full on job title start antitrust lawyer. I have no idea what that really means. , can you, can you explain that to me and, and to our listeners?

Amanda Wait: (00:46)
Sure. So, um, I think people might know more about what an antitrust lawyer does today than they did 20 years ago. When I started out in this profession, uh, fun story, when I told my parents that I was going to be an antitrust lawyer, they, uh, they're like, well, you can just be something sensible like an engineer . What does that even do? Um, so at most basic, an antitrust lawyer is charged with helping clients enforce the federal and state antitrust laws in the us. And what that means at, at a practical level, is ensuring that every company has the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. So there's gonna be winners and losers. Some companies will compete better than others, some will have better products and services. And it's really kind of, you know, back to economic principles, supply and demand. Okay. Whoever has the best products wins. And, uh, at most basic, we help clients tell the story of how, you know, what they're doing in their business or transactions that they are thinking about doing will ensure that that playing field stays competitive.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
Okay. Thank you for the breakdown. Is this something you envisioned when you were, um, taking business classes here at uc, or was this something that you thought of in law school?

Amanda Wait: (02:02)
No, I'm actually one of the few people who knew exactly what I wanted to do with my life from early on. I've been very fortunate in that area. So I decided to become an antitrust lawyer right around 1999, 2000 when I was studying economics here at uc. And there were two things happening. I was studying kind of microeconomics 1 0 1, and we were talking about supply and demand principles. We were talking about monopolization theories and kind of the basic principles that the US antitrust laws are, are founded on. And at the same time, kind of out in the world more generally, the US Department of Justice was suing Microsoft for alleged monopolization behavior. So I had a real life example as I was studying this in my textbooks of kind of how this plays out in the law. And I just became the biggest nerd and was following the Microsoft case with interest. And, you know, my interest kind of grew from there.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
Okay. Now, once you graduated and everything, you didn't necessarily take the safe route as something we talked about beforehand, um, in your career. In fact, um, you told me that you passed on the, you called it a generous offer from a New York City law firm to go work for the government. Why would you do that? ?

Amanda Wait: (03:15)
You know, my mom asked me the same question back then too. Um, you know, why would you take a job that pays a third of what you could make? Um, she, you know, kind of cried a little bit and asked if I would ever pay off my law school loans. Um, and I did, I did pay off my law school loans eventually in my forties . Uh, but, you know, I took the job because I think that there's more to life than money. And especially early in, early in your career, opportunities matter more than financial gain. And there's always time in your career to, to take the maybe more lucrative financial job. But if you can start your career off with great experience that will pay dividends later in your career. So when I was coming outta law school, I had the opportunity to work at a big New York, you know, kind of white shoe law firm, which kind of the dream that everybody aspires to when you're in law school or many people aspire to.

Amanda Wait: (04:12)
Uh, but I had the opportunity also to work at the Federal Trade Commission and be a frontline antitrust enforcer. And, you know, at that point I had been thinking about antitrust for about five years, you know, my time at here at uc, and then in law school. And I said to myself, you know, if, if I'm really gonna do this, if I'm really gonna be an antitrust lawyer and I wanna find out like what it's really like and what the day-to-day is, I've gotta go all in. Mm. And so I went to the Federal Trade Commission, and it was still one of the best jobs I ever had. I had amazing experience. I wasn't, um, you know, stuck in a room reviewing documents for a year, like many of my law school classmates who had chosen to go to law firms. This was back when you actually reviewed documents and not just on, you know, on computers or using

Grant Freking: (05:02)
Ai. I'm, I'm

Amanda Wait: (05:02)
With you. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I had the opportunity to lead cases and stand up in court and say, you know, I'm Amanda Wait. I'm here on behalf of the US government for the Federal Trade Commission. And that is a really powerful thing to say, and it was a lot of fun.

Grant Freking: (05:17)
Yeah. Aside, I was, my next question is, was gonna be, um, walk me through like the poignant moments you remember from that, or things that you maybe carry with you to, to your current role from that job to, from that job that's, that clearly led an, uh, left an impact on you.

Amanda Wait: (05:32)
Yeah, I mean, I think going to the government, um, you know, we had, we had small teams, and so you were kind of expected to be a lawyer from day one. You know, you didn't have a lot of time to kind of shadow people and learn how to do things. You really had to learn on the fly. So one of the most, um, interesting moments, I think in my early career was about a year into my practice at the Federal Trade Commission, someone came to me and said, you know, we're, we're staffing up a new matter. There is an issue around natural monopolization theory, and we have an economic witness on the other side, and we need to take his deposition. You have a degree in economics, , don't you wanna be the expert , uh, witness to, you know, take the person who takes the, uh, right, right.

Amanda Wait: (06:18)
The economic experts witness. And, you know, taking a deposition is hard enough, but taking the deposition of someone who testifies in court professionally as their job and has been doing so for 20 years as a professional PhD economist was very intimidating. Um, but I just rolled up my sleeves and did it. And I think the, what the lesson that I've taken from that is you have to give people the opportunity to reach, and you have to give people the opportunity to prove that they can do it. You can't just give people the jobs that you know, that they can do. And so now that I'm more senior in my career and I'm working with junior people, you know, I'll, I'll take a hard look at what tasks are coming up, and I'll say, who have I worked on with these kinds of projects? And I won't let them do the same thing again. Mm-hmm . I'll make them do the next thing. Do the biggest thing

Grant Freking: (07:13)
Intentionally expose them to other areas to knowing that it'll help them further down the road or help your team and your company, I'm assuming too. Right.

Amanda Wait: (07:20)
And you have to kind of stand back and let them do it, you know, and even though you know how to do it more efficiently, or you might know the slightly better question to ask, you kinda have to let people figure it out and be there as a resource for them, but, you know, give them opportunities just like I did. And I had those opportunities when I was more junior.

Grant Freking: (07:39)
Yeah. That's a hard thing to do, I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, let's talk about developing expertise. Your work demands, as you've mentioned, legal depth, but also industry fluency. How did you go about building that kind of cross sector knowledge in your position?

Amanda Wait: (07:53)
Yeah. Well, let me take a step back and just say, in antitrust, we have to learn a lot about industries. So we are advising on the competitive playing field, which looks very different from industry to industry. I do a lot of work in the healthcare sector, for example. And the way that hospitals compete to be in network with insurers is very different than how, you know, your supermarket down the street competes to get customers walking in the door. You know, those are two very different industries. Um, I also do a lot in kind of manufacturing and manufacturing for inputs. So the customers there are not, you know, people like you and me, uh, buying engines for things. Uh, but they're usually, you know, automobile manufacturers or, um, recreational vehicle manufacturers or other big companies that are buying things as inputs into products that they're then making and selling to others.

Amanda Wait: (08:51)
And so, again, very different competitive dynamics. And so, you know, I work in all of those industries simultaneously, and when a client calls and wants to talk about something that's happening in their industry, I have to know what's going on. Not just how do you make this widget or how do you put together a network for health services? But, you know, are there any recent moves in this space? Are companies innovating? Are there new companies coming in? Did their biggest competitor just get a huge capital infusion? You have to stay on top of all of this stuff because the clients are expecting that, you know, their business. Yeah. So that's a bit of the background. To go to your immediate question, I think AI helps a lot with this. Um, and it's a tool that we didn't really have even a couple years ago where I have, uh, for example, we use copilot at my law firm, and I have a daily copilot prompt that runs every morning at 6:00 AM that summarizes all of the emails that come in from different news sources in my inbox and pops out a summary.

Amanda Wait: (10:04)
And I can go through those, it contains links to the underlying articles, and I can skim through and I have it set up so that I'm looking at, you know, manufacturing industry publications. I'm looking at healthcare industry publications, I'm looking at tech publications. I'm looking at general news sources, but I can skim through the headlines and really stay on top of what's happening in all of those industries so that when my clients call and say, oh, hey, did you see that so and so just got bought out by this other competitor of ours? I can say, yes, I did see that. You know, what does that mean for you? Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (10:40)
Yeah. You touched on leadership a little bit earlier, but I want to circle back to that. Um, what other ways do you tend to show up as a leader in your position? And how has that evolved for you over your career?

Amanda Wait: (10:52)
Oh, that's a great question. I think leadership means a couple different things, and I think it's helpful to think about it in different buckets. So there's, you know, the big kind of big picture strategy leaders, you know, the where is this business gonna be in five years, kind of questions or the how do we innovate to stay relevant in our industry kinds of questions. And, you know, leadership at that level requires, you know, kind of being able to see around corners, seeing what's coming down the pike, seeing what your competitors are doing. Um, you know, I'm working right now in my law firm to help develop out a five year strategic plan for our DC office. And so we're trying to think through, you know, what impact is AI having on our business? How many associates do we need? Do we need partners in different areas and things like that.

Amanda Wait: (11:45)
Um, but I also think leadership means the day to day stuff. And that's, I think, a little trickier because it's, you know, one thing to put together a strategic five-year plan and then go out and hire in specific areas and execute on that plan. But I think the leadership on a day-to-day level is things around office culture, um, particularly around return to office. Mm-hmm . Has been a big challenge, particularly in the DC area where, uh, post COVID, I, um, it's really, really hard to get people physically in the building. Everybody wants to work from home. A lot of people move further out. Commuting distances are hard, traffic is horrible, parking is hard. You know, there's all kinds of reasons and you can only throw so many pizza parties, you know, to get people in the door, right? Um, and so as a leader in the organization, you have to have those little interactions every day.

Amanda Wait: (12:37)
So for example, I, I walk the hall every morning at 10 o'clock not to take notes or keep score who's here, who's not here, but to make the people who are there feel valued and, you know, give them a little love that, you know, we care about them as people and you know, we care that they're in the building and we care that they're there. We wanna hear what's going on with them, and we wanna hear what's going on with their families. Um, and so I think that is another kind of soft skill form of leadership that when you're trying to hit those big picture goals of building out an office or building out an organization or developing in certain areas, having the trust of your team and the culture around it that happens through those daily interactions is critically important to be able to execute on the bigger stuff too.

Grant Freking: (13:24)
Yeah, those, I like that answer a lot. Those personal touches mixed with the strategic, um, vision. Where did you pick up on that? Is that something that this comes gradually with experience, or is there, are there specific mentors or leadership figures that you've had sort of modeled this behavior after?

Amanda Wait: (13:40)
You know, I think it was just because I saw how I wanted to be treated. Okay. You know, when I was more junior, I entered, uh, practicing law in the early two thousands where, um, after I left the Federal Trade Commission, I joined a law firm in, in 2007, where, you know, and this wasn't specific to that law firm, but the culture and law generally was a lot of face time and a lot of long hours. We didn't have the ability to work remotely for client confidentiality and security reasons. We couldn't access firm networks from our homes. Um, so that meant, I, I had a pillow and a sleeping bag under my o under my desk in my office, and I ordered takeout a lot, for, for, for office dinners and was in, in the office quite a bit. And, you know, at various organizations where I've been, over time, I've seen how office leadership and office management would, you know, interact with the people who were there kind of pulling the all-nighters or working really hard for, for clients.

Amanda Wait: (14:43)
And, you know, I saw, frankly, people with leadership titles who, you know, would swing by your office at seven o'clock at night and say, Hey, I'm going out to dinner with some clients, you know, have that thing on my desk in a couple hours, or have, have that thing on my desk for the morning. And then they were gone for the night. Then I saw the leaders who were like, Hey, I'm really sorry that you have to be here tonight. I have this client dinner that I have to do, but I'll be back in two hours and let me know how I can help. And those are very different messages that come across to junior folks and organizations. And so I think that I've always seen through my own experiences, you know, leadership as not just being the title or, you know, the person that has the role, but leadership is how you build the culture.

Grant Freking: (15:34)
Yeah. Inherent to leadership and, and also inherent to your position are the, uh, the ethical areas. How do you, um, navigate these ethical gray areas when the stakes are so high for you in your position? And I guess, what are the principles to, to that lead you to like the quote unquote right answer when it's, maybe it's not so obvious?

Amanda Wait: (15:52)
Yeah. I mean, for lawyers, we have a lot of guidance on what is and is not ethical. Mm. And, um, I will say the vast majority of lawyers, at least, that I have interacted with over the course of my career, take ethics incredibly seriously. Um, as part of my license, uh, for the Commonwealth of Virginia, I have to take ethics credits, um, continuing legal education every year, and I have to certify to the Virginia State Bar that I have done that, and that I have taken these courses, um, and that I'm staying on top of what the, the ethical rules are in the jurisdictions where I practice. Um, I think aside from the technical rules, um, at least for the lawyers that I work with and that I've interacted with, we all take ethics incredibly seriously because our life and our livelihood is on the line.

Amanda Wait: (16:43)
And it is just not worth it to take risks on your law license or your practice and your reputation. Um, you know, if you lose your law license in one jurisdiction, every other jurisdiction where you're license to practice will also pull your law license, and then you're out of a job and what do you do? You know, we've got mortgages to pay just like everybody else. Mm-hmm . So I, you know, I think it's something we take very seriously. Um, most law firms and other organizations have their own general counsels who are the lawyers for the entity, for the law firm or for the organization. And I have built great relationships with those folks. Over time, when there are gray areas, I will seek guidance internally. Um, there's also bar council for the state bars where people are practiced that can give, um, guidance on anonymous basis.

Amanda Wait: (17:35)
So there's a lot of guidance out there. Um, now that all said, clients do come to you and have a lot of questions, and your job as a lawyer is to assess the risk for your clients. We are not the decision makers, we're not the business people. We're not the ones that say, you know, do this. Don't, you know, here's what you're going to do. We just advise and they make decisions. And so our job as counselors and advisors is to, you know, sometimes ask the question, you know, well, how do you look in orange? You know, do you really ? Do you really wanna end up in jail because that's where this is gonna go. Um, if you go down this path, most of the work that I do is civil. So my, my clients, I've knock on wood, have never had a client go to jail, at least not for anything that I was advising on. Yeah. Um,

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Put that on your LinkedIn .

Amanda Wait: (18:25)
Yeah. Maybe that should be my tagline. Yeah. Amanda. Wait, lawyer has never sent a client to jail. . I don't think my firm would like that too much. Yeah, probably not. Um, but you know, we, we do have to sometimes be the bad guy in the room. Yeah. And clients are coming to me with big ideas and big ideas that are gonna transform their business that they have been thinking about for a long time. And so it's really hard sometimes to be the person who taps the brakes on that and says, you know, maybe this isn't the best idea. Maybe this will not put you in compliance with the laws that you need to be in compliance with. But that always creates an opportunity and it creates an opportunity to build your relationships with your clients. So going back to the question that you had earlier about staying on top of the client's business, sometimes I will go to clients and say, well, maybe you can't do it exactly this way, but here's what I saw another company doing. Would something like this work for you? Yeah. Because I think there's a way that you could do it like this instead of doing it like that and, you know, then you are more in compliance or here's your, here's your risk level. You know, this is gonna be higher risk, this will be lower risk, but you know, it's up to you what your risk tolerance is. And then as the outside lawyers, we just have to document the advice that we gave in case it goes, uh, sideways.

Grant Freking: (19:48)
Yeah. Instead of an outright no options. And giving them degrees of certainty, I guess.

Amanda Wait: (19:53)
Yeah. We try really hard not to be the department of No. Right.

Grant Freking: (19:56)
Yeah. As, as easy as that can be sometimes. Uh, going off that, uh, the tension and difficult conversations that I'm sure you experience with your clients, um, on a, probably almost a near daily basis is really interesting to me. How do you navigate those stormy waters? Um, does, like, do you have like walk in like, okay, this, this one's gonna be a tough one. Do I have, do you have like a checklist or coming in with like, make sure I do this, this, and this with this client? Um, how, how do you kind of navigate those situations?

Amanda Wait: (20:24)
So first I think it's important to kinda understand the personalities. So I'm often coming in at a pretty high level in an organization. So I'm either directly advising A CEO or a chief legal officer or, um, CFO, you know, kind of c-suite level, um, folks within a, within a client, or I'm coming in and advising the board, uh, because they're making a strategic business decision that requires that level of approval. And so I think just with any professional, um, presentation or anytime you're coming in to be an expert at that level, it's really important to understand the personalities and where people are coming from. And you don't have to come in cold. Um, you know, there are people in the organization who know the personalities involved. And so having a close relationship with the general counsel or the chief legal officer or you know, the CEO or the chairman of the board, or whoever, whoever's the closest contact, I think it's incredibly helpful and almost necessary to talk to them ahead of time and say, okay, tell me who's gonna be in the room, who's gonna like this decision that you're gonna make?

Amanda Wait: (21:34)
And who more importantly, who's not gonna like it and what's their objection gonna be? Um, so that I can help anticipate that. And then I think it's important to come into the difficult conversations and just, you know, state the elephant in the room. This is a hard choice. I know you are facing a hard choice. I have worked with clients who faced these same kinds of hard choices. Um, I don't mean to minimize that in any way, but here's how you can navigate that. Here's how you know, you can make this decision and take that consideration into account, even if it's something that's not directly an antitrust related concern. So lemme give you an example. Okay. I'm often working with clients who are considering large strategic mergers and acquisitions, usually in the multi hundreds of millions of dollar range. These are big choices. Most of my clients are, are public companies.

Amanda Wait: (22:27)
So these are, these are decisions that have SEC reporting obligations attached to them. Um, they're oftentimes decisions that are coming with job implications. So, you know, you merge two companies together. You don't necessarily need two CFOs or two CEOs, and you've got the people in the room whose jobs might be on the line as a result of this. And so it's very, um, a sensitive line to walk to say, you know, you have to do what's in the best interest of the company. That's, that's your job as an outside counsel, and that's the board's job as a fiduciary for the organization. But knowing that your decision might impact your friend who's the CEO is, is really tough. So I think just coming in and saying like, you know, we know this is tough. This is, uh, this is not gonna be an easy decision. But, you know, kind of having the sideline conversation saying like, look, if this deal goes through and you CEO are now looking for a new position, I have lots of clients that are looking for CEOs. Let me help you with that. Right. Um, so there's ways you can navigate that, you know, kind of strategically. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (23:35)
A delicate dance to be sure. Mm-hmm . Has there been a case you've worked on that really changed your perspective on markets or competition or any of the various areas that you've worked on?

Amanda Wait: (23:45)
So, in 22 years of being an antitrust lawyer, I've become a little insufferable around competition. 'cause I get the pleasure of working with clients in all different kinds of industries. And it impacts, um, just everyday life. I look around the world and I see things that I've had the opportunities to touch upon in my antitrust life. And, you know, it, it's just, um, it's fascinating and I, I absolutely love it. So, for example, I'm just here in this podcast room and there is a case of water sitting on the floor. I have worked on cases involving, um, supply chain for supermarkets and big box retailers. I know exactly how that case of water probably got here. , I've worked on, uh, cases involving retail food distribution. So maybe your, maybe your case of water came through a food distributor instead of through a supermarket. Yeah. I, I can tell you all about that.

Amanda Wait: (24:41)
I drive down the highway and I see my client's, uh, distribution trucks driving down the road. And if I'm not driving, if someone else is driving the car, I will literally take pictures of semi-trucks on the highway that belong to my client, and I will send them pictures and say, I saw one of your trucks today, . Um, uh, in terms of, uh, any particular cases that are interesting, I had an opportunity pretty soon after I left the Federal Trade Commission and went into private practice to represent Delta Airlines in their merger with Northwest Airlines in, in 2008. And that has changed how I travel, it has changed how I think about airlines. It has changed how I think about flight scheduling. It has changed, you know, even how, what I think about when I'm sitting in an air airport gate waiting to board a flight, um, I just learned so much about how airlines work, and it's such a fascinating industry. Um, I also could probably tell you any airport in the US based on, its three digit FAA code still, you know, 15 years later. So you can, you can test me out, but, um, my favorite airport code is Sioux City, which Sioux City's airport code is SUX.

Grant Freking: (26:04)
Okay. . Nice. I'm sensing a future podcast. Future podcast from you, Amanda Wade on airlines, .

Amanda Wait: (26:11)
Yeah. It's, it's a, it's really fascinating.

Grant Freking: (26:14)
Nice. All right. Let's, last couple of questions here before I let you get, get on a, a plane. Um, can you gimme some background on how you've been involved with the Kautz Uible Economics Institute, which is one of our center's, institutes here at Linder in a wonderful institute and, and why this institute means so much to you?

Amanda Wait: (26:30)
Sure. So, um, when I was an economic student back, uh, starting in 1997, uh, I had the opportunity to apply for a scholarship, which, um, the institute then was called the Hewitt Kautz Fund. And the scholarship really changed the whole course of my life. Um, I was able, and, you know, lucky, fortunate, honored to receive a two year financial scholarship as part of that, um, part of that fund. Mm. And graduated from undergrad with no student debt, which to me was incredibly important as I was thinking about law school. And, um, it enabled me to apply to law schools outside of the Cincinnati area. I ended up going to William and Mary in Virginia, and if I had had student debt from my undergraduate education, I don't think I would have been able to take on additional debt, you know, in law school and, and had the courage and kind of financial wherewithal to be able to move halfway across the country in a state where I had no relatives, no family, and just kind of start over there.

Amanda Wait: (27:37)
Um, so it was incredibly, um, incredibly financially supportive for me. And so I was thrilled, um, several years ago when I had the opportunity to join the board, uh, of that fund. So I've been very involved, um, probably for 14 years or so now, and just working with, uh, with Dan Kautz and Woody Uible and Debashis Pal, and seeing their vision for the economics department and really seeing philanthropy in action. You know, how much good we can do as an institute to support our students, to support our alumni, to support our professors and the department. Um, I think we've just done really great things. Uh, so maybe as an example, one of my, my personal projects within the Kouts BU Economics Institute, uh, started about 10 years ago where we founded what's now called the eConnect Initiative, which is, um, loosely organized, uh, group that provides mentoring and support to current economic students.

Amanda Wait: (28:42)
So for example, today here in about an hour or so, we're hosting a lunch for the economic students. We're having a couple other alumni come into town. We do this every spring and every fall. Mm-hmm . To talk about careers in economics, what you can do with an econ degree, how you can be ready for your internship, how you can explain why an econ degree is actually the best degree to get, uh, and can create more opportunities for you, especially if you pair it up with another degree within the College of Business. And it can just create opportunities that not having an econ degree, you know, won't necessarily get for you.

Grant Freking: (29:20)
Right. And you remain connected to not just the institute and here at Lindner, but also all of you see through your work with the foundation. You know, you, you mentioned some of the work that you also have done, guest lectures. Um, what overall motivates you to stay engaged, I guess, aside from like your, the, the personal experience that you have, um, but sort of expanding the, your, your view on it a little wider. What motivates you to stay engaged in that sense? And what do you hope students take away from your interactions with them?

Amanda Wait: (29:48)
Uh, well, well, first I love just coming on campus. Um, there's so much energy, it's so much excitement, and I just feel very energized every time I come on campus. The campus looks very different today than it did when I first stepped on foot here as a student in 1997. You know, main Street wasn't here. Yeah. This beautiful building that the Linner College of Businesses in wasn't here. Um, and I just love seeing the transformation of our wonderful university into the just world class research institution that we are today. So that itself is energizing. I love talking to students and, you know, hearing what they're doing. There's, there's so much that the Linner students are doing these days. They're running organizations, they're entrepreneurs. They're starting their own businesses. I mean, they're so far ahead of where I was when I was a student here. It's, it's just great to see.

Amanda Wait: (30:41)
Um, and then I think you asked about, you know, inspiring students. I'll tell you a story. When, when I first, uh, became a Hewitt Kouts fellow and received the scholarship, they did a, a kind of meet and greet, uh, awards dinner. This was back in the old alumni center, which, um, is actually physically in the same space that the Lyner College of Businesses today. And I remember, this is gonna sound a little silly, but, um, you know, it was like the fanciest thing that I had ever been to in my life. There was a harpist I remember very vividly. Okay. There was this, a harpist from CCM maybe to

Grant Freking: (31:19)
Bring that harpist back.

Amanda Wait: (31:21)
I, I've talked to Dan Kautz about this. Okay. , um, good. But I, I remember walking in and there was a harpist and, and everybody was just dressed so nicely, and it was just a fancy event. And I had the opportunity to meet Jim Kautz, uh, who was the original founder of the Hewitt Kouts Fund, which he named in honor of one of his professors. And Jim for, for those who don't know, um, he was a principal at Goldman Sachs. And I remember thinking, and I, I've told Dan his son this story too, that he had the nicest suit that I had ever seen in my life. . And, and you know, he just must be a really important person. But my takeaway from that is, isn't it great that somebody who has a big job and he works in New York and works for Goldman Sachs, that I had to actually look up, I didn't know what it was back then, uh, would spend his time to come here and meet somebody like me. And it gave me the opportunity and kind of encouraged me to think big. And I, I don't remember exactly what we talked about during that conversation, but I remember coming away from the conversation thinking, wow, I could do a lot with my life. I could do anything. And I would love to be able to be that kind of inspiration for students here too. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (32:43)
It's, you never know the impact you can have just with like one small conversation that they can leave you with. I know that's happened for me in my own separate journey with my mentors. And it's great that you feel like you have that ability to maybe possibly be the influence for, for our students too.

Amanda Wait: (32:58)
Yeah. And you know, it wasn't that I came away from the conversation with, with him, you know, wanting to be an investment banker in New York. Sure. That that wasn't what I wanted. But you know, just the fact that we had alumni of our department who were willing to kind of show you what you could do was, um, something that has, that has stuck with me for now almost 30 years. Right.

Grant Freking: (33:20)
Well, Amanda, that's all I have for you today. I appreciate you being here. Thank you very much.

Amanda Wait: (33:23)
Thank you. It was my pleasure.

Grant Freking: (33:25)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.