Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
I'm here with Jude Schramm. Thank you Jude, so much for joining us today. It's great to meet today. It's fantastic. Um, Jude, you, you're currently Chief Information Officer at Fifth Third Bank and one of our most valued strategic partners, um, both as at fifth third, and you as a liaison as well as on our, um, business advisory council and a Treasure Cincinnati community leader. I just, I call that out because I think it's just really important for all of our listeners, particularly our students, to understand the role model you are coming from here as a student. Mm-hmm . To CIO now. So I just, I wanna thank you for your inspiration. Oh, ahead of time. Great.

Jude Schramm: (01:08)
Yeah. No thanks. Appreciate that.

Marianne Lewis: (01:10)
You know, I do think yours is a remarkable journey from, you know, a uc student to CIO mm-hmm . But no one's career path is what you expect Right. At the time. It's, they're windy, they're surprising, uh, when you look back mm-hmm . Which is always a better viewpoint, you know, looking backwards and forwards. Were there some particular pivotal early experiences and if maybe even if you picked one that helped shape where you are now and how

Jude Schramm: (01:35)
Yeah, for sure. Um, first of all, thanks for letting me be here. I do appreciate getting a chance to come up and hang out on campus and spend time with you. So I do appreciate that. Um, you know, my career, to your point, everybody career is different. And one of the thing I will say is, you know, way back when I was here ages and ages ago, and the stone ages of really the technology timeframe, I didn't even know that I knew to hope to be in the, luckily the position I'm in today. I mean, I, I never really had a vision to become a CIO or a vision to become a business leader. Um, maybe even until I even got into the role of CIO I always just wanted to gravitate to solving problems, learning continuously about my profession and how to be good at what I do, which eventually went from being good at as a technologist to good as a leader.

Jude Schramm: (02:26)
Um, but there were a couple pivotal moments that I, um, you know, I I, I do cite sometimes when I'm talking to people about career. One in particular for me was, you know, I was probably a mid-level manager at General Electric when I was there and on my way to, to more senior leadership positions. And in a culture like that, a lot of times your success was looked at also, not just your professional, like how you show up, but there is a lot to the org hierarchy. Who do you lead? How big is your organization? Where do you fit inside that hierarchy? And probably two roles before my CIO job, um, is when the iPhone came out. Oh. And the gentleman who was leading the, uh, services division for, for the aviation business here had said, Hey, I'm gonna go spend $30 million just r and d to figure out what this thing can do.

Jude Schramm: (03:22)
'cause I think these are gonna be really big for business. And he told my boss at the time, I'd like to have somebody come lead this for me. And so we were talking about it at a staff meeting and I raised my hand and said, I, I wanna do it. And she said, no, you don't. This is a individual contributor. Go experiment, figure stuff out. It's not gonna help you get to your next level. I don't think you want to do that. And I had to literally argue back and forth with her for almost a week. I said, I don't care about those things. I just want to be a part of this thing. 'cause I think it's important. And so I did, I took a job with no direct reports, a job where I had no real responsibility other than to figure this thing out for the company.

Jude Schramm: (04:05)
Um, and I had a lot of people that were my peers who were like, why are you taking yourself off of the leadership track? And I'm like, I don't, like, I didn't have a good answer for them. Mm-hmm . But that thing led to my next two roles, um, that were leading kind of digital for the business. And then for the larger GE corporation trying to establish the digital business for General Electric, which ultimately was my role before I was CIO there at, at Aerospace. And so, like, the lesson from that for me was like, you can't get stuck in the hierarchy in a career path. You gotta be willing to go and put yourself in different positions and in different places that may not look normal to everybody. But I followed something that meant a lot to me. It was the continuing education of my belief and where technology was going, and it worked out pretty well for me. So that, that was a probably a big pivotal moment for me in my career making that decision. Oh. But

Marianne Lewis: (04:52)
I love that story, Jude, because I mean, it was, you know, you get these questions of why are you getting off the leadership track and it actually propelled you. I mean, you jumped upward on that track, but you don't know that when you're making that call. No.

Jude Schramm: (05:04)
And I didn't make it for that reason. I had no real, even at that point, I had no real aspiration to be like a CIO, if you will. I just wanna keep learning and, and, and growing and challenging. I think that allows me to have a skill to contribute to the company and to keep, I guess, justifying my right to just be at the company, period. Forget the level or the mm-hmm . Title.

Marianne Lewis: (05:21)
You know, I think it leads to that. That's a, a pilot type project. I've now known you long enough to know that you've led multiple big digital transformations. Yeah. Right. Thinking about full scale systems and others. Right? Now, I know you think all the time about generative AI every day, but man, how do you even start, Jude? I mean, you're at a Fortune 500 Yeah. Company leading a digital transformation. What do you begin

Jude Schramm: (05:47)
On something like that? You know, it's a good question, especially with ai. 'cause it is very different from, if you think about the generation of like the businesses on the internet and e-commerce. Yeah. Or you think about the move to cloud from traditional on premises, major enterprise systems, those all required a whole different kind of, not just skillset, but an understanding of traditional IT enterprise stuff. Mm-hmm . And they had to roll out and deploy in ways that it felt more like a traditional IT thing. AI, to your point, is very different because it's one of the first times a majorly disruptive technology is coming into the, the business and the normal personal lifestyles of people with really no forward requirement for a bunch of advanced technology migration to a new thing. It just is there. Right. And so, you know, for me that it is a bit of a different journey with AI than the others.

Jude Schramm: (06:43)
Because one of the things that I started doing three years ago was just spending a large amount of time understanding, like at its foundation how AI happens from a technology perspective. And we have a great leader at Fifth Third that we, we have, um, who's been here for, you know, it was it, he'd been here for a while, left and then came back to, to do this with me. And it's spending hours and hours and hours with him and just doing research and, and, and experimentation on my own personal time Okay. With all these technologies to learn it. Because I think you have to have some level of understanding of how it works before you can, thinking about how would you then start to apply it into a company or into the business, which is now where we are is like, how do we apply this and apply this at scale? Um, but it took a lot of personal time up front. That makes sense. Like I told my team, I was spending probably almost the same amount of time learning and experiment with AI as I was doing my day job for probably the better part of a year, you know, or so before we started to even put it into actual the people's hands at the company.

Marianne Lewis: (07:44)
I so appreciate the way you just explained that, because when I think of digital transformations, I think of the examples you gave prior, like moving to cloud or others. Yeah. You, you can almost picture a Gantt chart and a project management like, you know, kind of this, this flow. Yeah. It's this amorphous thing. Ai Yes. And it's here. And, and your level of experimentation, I don't know, it even brings me back to your example of the phone. Yeah, yeah. Right. The iPhone is, we don't even know what it could or should do

Jude Schramm: (08:11)
Yet. No. And, and, and it's changing so fast what we think it can do today. It's the first technology that there's been a cycle for me personally, where like, it's going so fast. The things that we want to do with it, by the time we actually get to the point being able to do something, the underlying capabilities have dramatically changed. And we find ourselves continuously pivoting. Our strategy adapt. Whereas like the overarching strategy hasn't changed. But the how is different six months ago from today is completely different with how we're looking to apply it.

Marianne Lewis: (08:41)
Much more ready, fire, aim. Yeah. Right.

Jude Schramm: (08:44)
And

Marianne Lewis: (08:45)
100% then adapt as you go. Yeah. Well, which makes me think about security mm-hmm . Because it's such an issue and everybody's talking about it. Yep. I, I wanna take it into a particular area. 'cause I, I know you well, I've so valued you as an advisor and you're a man of principle mm-hmm . I, I'd love to know how your own values and principles play into the way you think about cybersecurity. Yeah. Because especially as you're moving so fast. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (09:08)
That's a, that's a great question.

Marianne Lewis: (09:09)
You've gotta have a high level.

Jude Schramm: (09:10)
It is. And the, the way that I think about it is when, when we look at either the existing ways we're trying to protect customers right? Or protect our employees, um, AI or not, right? We really try to put that at the forefront of every decision we make when we're putting technology out into our environments for people to use. Right. And so, AI's no different. And for me it, it's gotta start with that foundational principle of like, I can get a lot of stuff out there, but if I do it ahead of knowing how we're gonna protect the people that are gonna use it mm-hmm . Then it's creating an unnecessary risk that people don't even know they're being exposed to. And so we do spend a lot of time, like when we are putting AI in, you know, we're probably by all measures with most other banks, we're doing pretty good.

Jude Schramm: (09:53)
We're probably deploying AI at the pace of the trillionaire banks and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm . But what a lot of people don't probably know is that we're one of the few banks that the first year while I was experimenting personally, me and our head of AI and some other people, what we were also building was our governance framework for how do you deploy simultaneously ai. Yeah. So to parallel, we had a policy written before we ever put one thing in the environment. We had, um, a framework for how we are trying to assess and evaluate ai. In fact, um, we have two patents that were awarded to us at the end of last year around generative ai. And both of them are really patents around the way we're protecting the AI from getting either jailbroken or compromised. And so we are, we are constantly thinking about how do we protect the customers? How do we protect the employees? Um, so that when we do put it out there, we already have a good sense of what that means. And even today, our cybersecurity teams are doing a ton of experimentation with how do we detect AI in the environment, especially bad AI that we don't know or don't want in there. And so we're, we're, we're doing a ton of investment in that relative to the overall IT spend on ai. It, it's a, it's a big piece of it. It

Marianne Lewis: (11:00)
Has to be. Yeah. I I I, I won't say the company, but I had a, a, a another, um, strategic partner here recently saying that they were hit about 7,000 times a day. Yeah. Does that sound like a crazy number to you? Does it

Jude Schramm: (11:12)
Sound about way? No, we get, we get hit tens of thousands of times a day with attempts to, to break in easily.

Marianne Lewis: (11:17)
Yeah. I don't think people quite realize when, when you say cybersecurity is that level of, of risk, it's nonstop. It's huge.

Jude Schramm: (11:23)
It's nonstop.

Marianne Lewis: (11:24)
And the fact that you were ahead of it and thinking so early is I think just something for us all to think about further. You know, you've, you've now, this is your second time as A-C-C-I-O. Yes. Right? You were, you were a ge uh, then this was pre GE Aerospace, but it was in the aerospace space.

Jude Schramm: (11:41)
It was aviation at the time. It was aviation as part of the bigger GE company pirate of them breaking it out.

Marianne Lewis: (11:46)
Is the role changing for you? Yeah. I mean, not just in the institutions being different, the organizations, but

Jude Schramm: (11:52)
Just Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, if you go way back to when I wasn't the CIO and I remember interacting with the first CIO, like at that kind of a senior level, um, there was definitely much more of a sense of your job is to run the IT department. Right? Okay. In in, what I mean by that is, I don't know that the CIO 20 years ago was sitting around the business leadership table. They reported into the CFO or to somebody else, run the infrastructure and Yeah. And they were responsible for running the infrastructure mm-hmm . Making sure that, you know, always jokingly say the ones and zeros and the spinning discs were always up and running and moving and working. You know, the, one of the great things about working at, at Aerospace when I was there, when in the, in the old form of the company was, it was about an era where the CIO was becoming a business leader as well.

Jude Schramm: (12:38)
And you were expected not just to know the technology, but know how it was really delivering value to the company, whether it be in the efficiency side of simplifying and automating internal processes to delivering and enabling revenue generation, which is, you know, I think there was a lot of articles over the last number of years about the CIO is a business leader in da, which is all great. I think, I think today even just, you know, if you think about the journey we're talking about with AI mm-hmm . I think that the CIO is those things, and also a throwback to some of the understanding of like, I'm expected to help the entire company understand how to make the best use of AI to make their jobs more effective, more efficient, whether again, it's to add more scale, to take more streamlining or to help contribute to revenue.

Jude Schramm: (13:25)
And it's a perfect blend of the two because, you know, if you, again, I don't know, I, I assume that you guys have wrote out like something like copilot here at mm-hmm . At uc, everybody can use it. Nobody really knows how it works. Right. Right. They know how to use it and they don't need to know how it works necessarily, but somebody does. And I think there's a big expectation, at least at Fifth Third, that I'm able to both be a understanding of the business side of, of our company and the technology side in a way that those two things are almost an explicit, explicitly tied Yeah. To value whether that value is on revenue or on expense mm-hmm . And so it's a big evolution to the point that, you know, I, because you we'll probably talk about this a lot, about like, what is the future of AI looking for jobs?

Jude Schramm: (14:13)
Mm-hmm . And dah, dah dah da da. Like, it makes me almost an HR person at that point too, because I get asked that question, what is gonna happen to jobs if AI comes in? And like, you can't really not, you can't really ask hr. They don't know. Like they don't know how the technology can or should disrupt the company. But it's my job to know that and figure that out and feed that back into the rest of the company to make it part of our strategy. So you start to take on different roles as a CIO now because of the way that the technology's changing the landscape.

Marianne Lewis: (14:43)
I appreciate the way you, you just described that, Jude, because I mean, I can think back in history of these periods where, say manufacturing went from making the widgets to being strategic, or HR went from just run the, the, the policies to being strategic. And Yeah. And I can absolutely see that with the information side, but it's also not just strategic to the CEO or the board, you're saying, I mean, it's the team mm-hmm . And helping all the team be Yeah. A multiplier effect.

Jude Schramm: (15:11)
That's right. That's right. I mean, you gotta enable them all, but to enable them all, you have to have a perspective and some level of, um, understanding of what they're trying to do as a leader and their function, right? Mm-hmm. And that's, that's important.

Marianne Lewis: (15:23)
It's changing fast though, and you're at the table, you're, you're key to the vision around the technology side, particularly in this case for ai. How, how do you stay abreast in with something changing that fast? Yeah. You personally, but also for the vision. So I feel like there's a learning element, but there's a Yep. An organizational element too. Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (15:43)
Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think, I think there's, there's a, there's a whole lot kind of in there. We could, we could probably even unpack. But some of it is, is back to good old human relationships. Like, um, in, in, in our environment, I sit on the same floor as all my peers. We, the head of legal, the head of hr, the head of risk, the head of, you know, da da da, the lines of business and that kind of stuff. And so we spend a lot of time together. Mm. And so I get a chance to understand their view on the rest of the company and what they're trying to drive. I know their priorities. We plan together, we do strategy together. Um, we spend time together. And so I, I, I get to be a part of the inner circle that's creating the environment for fifth Third.

Jude Schramm: (16:28)
Mm-hmm . And so what I then get to do is help them think through how my role and my function can help their goals. And to your point that very quickly is turning into AI is a way to help them do things. And so a lot of times it's, it's thinking through what are you trying to do and is there a way to do it differently than the way you're doing it? And can AI help? That's usually the way the conversation starts. And part of my job is to know enough to help, because what I don't wanna do is pretend like, yes. 'cause one of the things I I see a lot, and you probably do too, is AI's gonna take every problem, solve it. Mm-hmm . Like not true as you know. Um, but if you're not paying, if you're not day to day in it like I'm supposed to be and you're in one of these other, other leadership roles, you probably aren't sure when AI could or should help.

Jude Schramm: (17:14)
And if it can and at what pacing or timing. And that's part of my job is to help make that clear to my, my, my partners in the business. Like, AI can work great here and now because it's ready, as we talked earlier from a mm-hmm . Hardening and scaling. I can protect it, I can, I can do whatever. This is a great place where we could try it in your given area, um, or put it in in your area and have to able to go, it's not ready in yours because the risk is, is not there where the technology isn't mature, mature enough and that kind of stuff. And that's part of my, I think my value contribution right? Is, is making sure that we have those dialogues before they get too excited. 'cause invariably, a lot of people come to them and say, I was at this conference and I saw this.

Jude Schramm: (17:57)
I think they do, and it's gonna save our lives. Mm-hmm. And it's like, me, probably not. Right? And so it, it, it's helping to myth bust a lot of the energy that comes upward to them from their teams. But I think I've built the rapport with all my peers that like, they know, Hey, let me go talk to Jude before we get too excited about this thing. Yeah. So a lot of the company does that with my organization too. It's like, Hey, we see this thing, can it help? It's like, let's, let's bring it back to the governance process and let's have a real conversation about what you're trying to do.

Marianne Lewis: (18:22)
Oh, that's so helpful. Well, I, and it makes me think as well about some of the partnering that we've been doing with the Center for Business Analytics, which we've actually just rebranded as the Center for Business Analytics and ai, because we have been doing so much work. That's great. Um, particularly with strategic partners like Fifth Third, one of the things that, that I've learned with you through you in, in this partnership is the power of use cases. Yes. Because if not, AI is this amorphous thing. Yes. That you're right. People think is a cure all, and we need examples. And I think, and I'm, I'm, I'd love to hear you share a little bit about how the partnership with the center has been helpful for you. Because I certainly know one of the ways it's been very helpful for us is to see it in practice. Yep. Yep. And then to be part of the journey at Fifth Third, both from projects, but also in training. Yep. That's right. I think it's a virtuous cycle.

Jude Schramm: (19:16)
It is. And, and as you know, this is something that we spend some intentional time on. So I know, you know, for me, one of the great things about the partnership between us and the Center for Business Analytics and ai, I got that right, right. You did. Is, you know, and I remember this just, I think it was just last fall, we did a project together where teams were coming down to Fifth Third Center, uh, to work with our data engineering and analytics teams on a business problem. Mm-hmm . Right. And I think that does a lot of things for both of us, by the way. We do too. So one is, um, the forward look to that to me is always the experience that the students get to see how business works. The reverse benefit is we get a chance to interact with university students in a real world environment.

Jude Schramm: (20:00)
And that is always a good feeder for things like co-op programs and internships and post-grad, you know, career opportunities. Because we get to all create an ecosystem where we're collaborating over a problem and people get to almost experience each other and say like, is this a good fit both ways for people. Like, Hey, we really like this student man, we should talk to him about post career. Does he have plans or kind of things where the students can be like, wow, I really either had a good experience or didn't. And maybe this is for me, maybe it isn't. But I think the point is, um, we're bringing real world business problems to the university with an opportunity to say practical application. Mm-hmm . Can we work together to solve it? The university gets to say these are real world business problems that are happening that we can be preparing our students for. And it's just a win-win. And, and, you know, you and I are gonna talk, I think, you know, we have a business analytics meeting next week. We advisory

Marianne Lewis: (20:52)
Meeting, we do advisor

Jude Schramm: (20:52)
Board where I wanted to talk to you about like, putting that on steroids in the coming year where we can get a cycle that's maybe happening up on campus as opposed to students coming down. Oh, fantastic. Both ways. Like can we create a scalable version of that that's got maybe a half dozen problems we're trying to solve coming together through university to put a real ecosystem around this. Um, because I think it's important that as we, as we work together, we keep kind of scaling that up because the other thing it brings for us is it, it's also gives some of my teams a chance to go work in an environment where it feels more innovative. Mm-hmm . Like, not that banking's not exciting, don't get me wrong. It's exciting, but sometimes when you're solving problems and you're solving it in the context of your teams, you, you don't get that sense of excitement and innovation.

Jude Schramm: (21:37)
And I can't tell you how many times people working on the projects with the students, when I'm talking to them, they're like, God, it's like work. It's like being back in school again. Or it's like having this chance to kind of think outside the box because we're working with these students and it's a different dynamic for my teams. That feels refreshing. Right. And so it's a cultural boost to them as well. And so there's just all these benefits of this, the companies get in the university, I think gets as well that do too, starts to form the community between the university and the businesses that we all get and strive for and work hard at anyways. Right. And so what better way to do it than real life problem solving. Right.

Marianne Lewis: (22:12)
Agreed. And whether it's an 18, 19 or here in Lynn, I mean I Yep. I I do I think there's the power of connection, but also space. Yeah. And hundred. And how do, do we make the most of those a hundred? I love that idea, Jude. That's good. I mean, it's not gonna surprise you I think every day also about ai. Yeah. And I'm thinking about it from the education side. I know we're gonna talk about this at the advisory board, but, um, it's vital. We, we need to align our, the education side to the, the business demands. Yes. I would love to hear you share a little bit about what you think we should be doing to make sure that alignment is happening. Yeah,

Jude Schramm: (22:47)
That's a great question. And because I do have a senior in high school coming here next year mm-hmm . I think about this a lot personally and then also professionally. Like what, what's

Marianne Lewis: (22:55)
That? What would you wanna see happening for him?

Jude Schramm: (22:57)
You know, I think, I think there's a couple things. One is I really hope that this myth that gets created sometimes how we don't need higher education anymore. 'cause people can self-serve in companies. It is just gets blown away somehow. 'cause I think it's completely wrong, um, for a number of reasons. It isn't just the education, which I think is fantastic. So context, when Isaac, my son and I were talking about degrees, he was even like, what do I do? What's AI gonna do? What do I even go into? And I said, you know, I said, when I think about it, um, you know, a finance degree is irreplaceable because it truly teaches you business. And I don't think I appreciated that till I got to fifth third because being in a bank, which is all about money and numbers and finances, um, you really have to, to understand the way that we make business decisions to help that drive anything else that you do. And so he's going to, he's, he's gotta accept it into the finance and he's gonna double that with business analytics.

Marianne Lewis: (23:56)
It's a great combination.

Jude Schramm: (23:57)
Right. And so I think those combinations are great for, to, as you said, because you kind of get the best of both worlds of what I think the future's gonna hold. When you go beyond that, when you ask about the education, I think beyond just the normal way that, that you see it as a great job preparing kids from a true classroom experience and from a co-op and and work experience. Mm-hmm . I think there's an element that I see in some of the, the, the, the, the early career folks that really will benefit in the future from things like really understanding. And I, I think I even talked about this, about structured problem, thinking about one of the things that I got when I was here, uh, was really learning how to solve problems. 'cause I think there's things AI is not gonna be able to, it's not gonna handle relationships. Wasn't

Marianne Lewis: (24:38)
An economics class or something you told me

Jude Schramm: (24:40)
About. It was, it was, it was actually a summer macroeconomic class that I had. It was like seven 30 in the,

Marianne Lewis: (24:45)
I love that you remember that summer? That's so good.

Jude Schramm: (24:47)
You never forget it. Right. . And so, and so, you know, that idea of really understanding how to problem solve mm-hmm . In, in a logical, structured way. Because the one thing I do worry about AI is like, I don't want it to start to get the belief that people don't need to learn how to think and problem solve. That's true. Like, it's gonna be great for a lot of things and maybe someday it'll replace us all. And I'm just a hopeful guy, but I hope not. And I don't, I don't believe it will. Um, I think humans are way more resilient than that. And I think we won't let it happen. Um, but I think being able to come out and know how to problem solve and do structured thinking to know how to interact with people, like, you know, I could go in my soapbox about where the social media economy has created so much isolation mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (25:31)
That I see it show up because we are a in-person culture. We don't do a lot of remote work. We have people in the office. 'cause I believe any company, it's cultural. It's definition of culture and how it actually, um, creates path for people to have career pathing needs people to interact mm-hmm . And I think, you know, whether it's the co-op program or just the way that you, we evolve the way that we, you know, have kids doing a lot of interaction to do, not just isolated problem solving, but problem solving in groups really is a big benefit. 'cause you come out of college and nine times outta 10, you're not solving problems by yourself. You're doing it in different settings with different people and trying to solve different problems that you're not an expert in. But it's the collective that matters. And I think that's what education is going to continue to evolve to, is how do we create more, uh, opportunities in the education system, in the university environment to mirror what that looks like out in the business world or should look like in the business world for, you know, a long time.

Jude Schramm: (26:29)
And how has AI become a part of solving this problems and part of those groups, right? Mm-hmm .

Marianne Lewis: (26:33)
No, uh, very, very much so I, I appreciate hearing that, hearing that. And, and we're gonna have a great conversation in a couple weeks through that board meeting. I, so you said, you know, one, one of the concerns is, oh, you know, people are gonna be gone out of all of these processes. Yeah. I'll give you a different one that I hear too often and, and I know keeps people up at night, is that, uh, it's going to eliminate entry level positions. Yep. But boy, those are incredibly important positions for the latter. Totally agree. So I wonder how you think about that at fifth third about, I mean, maybe it's gonna change, or may we think about other ways to Yeah. To develop people for whatever is the appropriate realm. Yep.

Jude Schramm: (27:09)
Yep. I, um, I, I don't think that's gonna happen at scale mm-hmm . And so I think there's a nuance to this question that, that probably merits a little bit of like talking about, here's the way I wanna think about it. I think we are in the hype cycle phase of ai, right? Mm-hmm . And

Marianne Lewis: (27:26)
The.com bubble,

Jude Schramm: (27:28)
I can remember in the.com bubble, I can remember in whatever phase you wanna get at this technology is gonna take over and we're not gonna need people anymore. Mm-hmm . And what happens, some jobs get displaced, but there's always typically newer and more version, more of newer jobs that get created mm-hmm . And so I think, you know, maybe back to our previous question, the university will definitely be staying on top of how are jobs evolving and changing? What new careers are being created with ai? What careers are being disrupted? I don't think it's just about entry level, it's all the way through the, the, the companies. But I think in, in today's world, like in 2026, like really right now, in February, March of 26, we're just in the hype where everybody's saying that it's all gone. We're all gonna go, like you and I have been through this mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (28:15)
Right? There will be stability, there will be stabilization. Like I kind of said earlier, um, humans are really good at not at creating self extinction. Right. Last I checked. And so, you know, there is a lot of recognition that I know in conversations I'm at, not just in fifth Third, but at other places where I'm talking about ai, a lot of the recognition of like, I can't eliminate all these people. Like at the end of the day, I'll give you a really good example. My head of engineering and I were talking, 'cause he's like, Hey, a year from now, and he mentioned this in a, in a like, let's talk about this way, the way this is going. I could probably run all of engineering. I have a thousand engineers I can remember run all of engineering with five people, right. And we're going, and I go May maybe, and, and we both like, this is him and I coming to the same conclusion, which is, and when those five people retire, who's gonna re who's gonna replace them?

Jude Schramm: (29:05)
And we were both look and we're like, well, I guess we can't, we can't do that. Right? We don't wanna do that either, but we can't. And so then it's like, okay, so how do we come back, call, you know, everybody get back to normal? What is the right way to think about defining the organization so that we have people coming in at early career that have career pathing up to those roles and there's enough of them that you can have the traditional hierarchy of people having careers at every level that are meaningful mm-hmm . And they continue to drive a career path upward. And so we are in a phase of trying to understand like, what does the future look like? Because there's, and I mean mean this in a serious way. There's just talk about there's gonna be agents that are gonna be part of an org hierarchy at some point mm-hmm .

Jude Schramm: (29:47)
Right. Non-human engineers that are sitting in an org chart. Maybe not for real, but kind of when you think about it, right. But part of what I'm getting at, we're really trying to think about will there be disruption? Yes. Do I know where that will be? I don't. I also know there will be new opportunities for new job creation and new types of jobs. And it's kind of my job as the CIO back to some to help figure out what that's gonna look like. Right. Because I don't wanna sit here and say, yeah, there won't be this or there won't be. I, I don't know. But I will tell you that sitting here today, every company I talk to of any real size will tell you we don't want AI to eliminate people. We want AI to allow us to help people do more. It's about scale. As opo a scale of what we can do versus doing more with non-human. That's not anybody's current like mega plan, if you will.

Marianne Lewis: (30:38)
I'm glad you're hearing that too. Yeah. The other one I've, I, I so appreciated it in a, at a different meeting, someone said, your ultimate job needs to be teaching students how to learn faster. Yes. And that was a really good takeaway for me. That's great. Because I do think that's the power of co-op. It's it's is about the learning process Yep. But also being really intentional about it. And we have the power or value of experience and wisdom, whatever age, whatever you wanna call it, that we've seen cycles come and go. That's right. It doesn't mean we're gonna be complacent, it just means we have some confidence that we'll learn how to adapt. That's right. I think these younger students, we need to help them.

Jude Schramm: (31:15)
I agree a hundred percent. It, it's, it's gonna be, that part of it will be different, right. Because this, to your point, the speed with which it's changing is greater, faster, whatever word you wanna use mm-hmm . Than any cycle we've ever been through. That's right. But at the other side of that, it's something, I was talking to one of my AI product owners yesterday. There still has to be the trust factor that matters. And what I mean by that is one of the core tenets of our AI that we put out there is, uh, is what the industry kind of first is human in the loop. Meaning before anything we go from an AI agent to you as a customer for third, there's some human that's making a decision. Should you get that or not? Yeah. Right. Um, or at some point the customer will be the human in the loop and decide, do I want that or not?

Jude Schramm: (32:01)
But the reason why I bring that up is, is like there's gotta be humans involved because I don't think anybody's ready to turn over the way that a customer's moving money in my world or a way that we're making decision on should you get a loan by an AI agent with no human being a part of that decision. Right. That's, that's not a concept that anybody's ready for. And I think to get from here to being able to trust something like that happening is a long way away. Because you aren't gonna trust it as a customer. My regulators aren't gonna trust it. Who makes sure I'm doing my job to, to to protect you, right? Mm-hmm . And then I'm not gonna trust it because God forbid an an AI agent give you something or do something that I have no knowledge or control over because I just destroyed your trust in fifth Third.

Marianne Lewis: (32:46)
Yeah.

Jude Schramm: (32:46)
Those things are what's going to gate some of the pace of AI disruption. Mm-hmm . And the frenetic conversations about all this stuff is gonna have that filter on it for a long time.

Marianne Lewis: (32:59)
I, I completely agree. Well, and when I'm thinking about, I am gonna go back to the students of, of today, whether it's undergrad, grad, professional students, you, you already called out kind of some of the challenges from post pandemic and AI that have actually, interestingly, the more technological we become, the more we need human skills. Yeah. Yes. Human capabilities. Totally. I wonder if you have some parting thoughts for advice on those human capabilities that we need to be making sure we are also leaning into. Whew.

Jude Schramm: (33:32)
Man, that's a big one.

Marianne Lewis: (33:33)
That is a big one.

Jude Schramm: (33:35)
Um, geez, Louise.

Marianne Lewis: (33:39)
Well, I mean, well, well you're thinking about it. 'cause we can, I mean, I love your point about the teamwork and the collaboration communication. I, I get really worried about the level of isolation. I agree.

Jude Schramm: (33:49)
And that's why I'm like thinking, boy, I can take this a lot of different places. I know I'm with you. Um, do, do you, uh, read or follow anything around like, stuff that, like Professor Scott Galloway?

Marianne Lewis: (33:59)
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Jude Schramm: (34:01)
So like, that's where my brain goes because I'm listening to the podcast with and Simon Sinek right now. And that's a good one. It is a real good one. If you've, if it's this week's one from Simon Sinek is him and, uh, professor Galloway. Right. So, um, like that's where my brain goes. And it's like, but that's probably not, you know, the way to take it for this one. Um, you know, I do, I, I, uh, you know, I think, you know, back to your point, I, I think that the human element's gonna become more critical. And I think for that socialization has to be important to our students these days. Like at the end of the day, it's very easy to put yourself in isolation. It's not hard because I think we've even lost a little bit of the understanding what isolation means. 'cause I think sometimes people look at the filter through Instagram or TikTok or whatever is, I'm not isolated. I'm in this community that's digital and I may not be talking to you in person, but I'm not alone. And I fundamentally don't believe that that's true. Mm-hmm . Right. I think that as a human, we were built for connection. Right. We were built to have interaction physically face-to-face mm-hmm . Right. And I think in a business context that's equally as important and always has been. We just didn't always know how important it was because we didn't realize it wasn't there because it was there. Right. And of your point that we

Marianne Lewis: (35:19)
Took it for granted.

Jude Schramm: (35:19)
We took it for granted and the pandemic set us into a different model. Um, and then the social media, uh, craze has made it even more isolating and easier to stay isolated. And, you know, one of the things that, that I think is important, and we see this at Fifth Third where we tell people we want you here is that peop we, we just do better as a company when people are problem solving together. Mm-hmm . People are people, people work better, people perform better. I think the, the balance between work and home is easier to separate because we saw that early in the pandemic. I think you probably did too, where people were working from home. Like, I don't know how to stop working 'cause I have no physical, no boundaries. Yeah. My commute used to suck, but it gave me a chance to go from work to home.

Jude Schramm: (36:09)
Mm-hmm . And then a lot of people lost that. Yeah. And then in the, in the company, we saw people that worked remote, they didn't understand the culture. 'cause they'd be like, how do I get promoted to fifth third? I'm like, nobody even knows who you are. Right. So I had, I had one-on-one meetings with a lot of early career people mm-hmm . Um, in 20 21, 22, 23. Because that was the question. I I don't know how to make connection. Yes. And I don't know how to get promoted. And the reality was they told them, you, you can't do that from home office easily 'cause nobody knows who you are and you don't know how we work. And so as we got people back into the office, the biggest beneficiary of that and the group that in our own employee surveys we found was clamoring to come back in, was the early professional.

Jude Schramm: (36:54)
And they came back first and then the middle career people who probably were less incentivized 'cause they're like, eh, I don't care about career, I'm in mine. And we were like, no, no, no. You are the people, the generation that's helping these people know who fifth third is. Mm-hmm . And bringing them together gets us back into a cultural state of the company grows and the company's better because we're here. Mm-hmm . And I think that applies to everything that we do. It applies to coming to class, it applies to the projects that get done here. It applies to your co-ops and your interns. Like I hope that society has the breakaway back from social media isolation back to people going to Uncle Woody's and hanging. I'm sure they do. Don't get me wrong, . Sure. I'm sure they do. But I just think we have to keep reinforcing the benefits of society being together. Um, and we have to keep using that as a way to get people out and functioning and getting away from the isolationism. Right. Because that's gonna be really critical for a healthy society. Is technologists always gonna find a way to make us more isolated if we wanna allow it. Mm-hmm . And we gotta find a way to not do that. Yeah.

Marianne Lewis: (38:01)
To counter

Jude Schramm: (38:02)
It. I dunno if that answered your question with this.

Marianne Lewis: (38:03)
Oh, it very much did Jude. I, I, I so appreciate it. I wanna just say, you know, thank you again, thank you for your inspiration, your role model, uh, also as an advisor and a strategic partner with Fifth Third, I mean, we are learning together in a very fast moving world. We are about the power of technology and very much the power of human. Well thank you. Or humanity. Yeah. So thank you.

Jude Schramm: (38:24)
Well, and can I just say thanks Pat 'cause Sure. You know, as you know, you, the University of Cincinnati is our number one partner down at, at fifth Third, and we had a thing down in the, we did that was three earlier. Was that late last year? God talk. Yes.

Marianne Lewis: (38:35)
With all the alumni. Third,

Jude Schramm: (38:36)
We brought everybody back. There are hundreds of people down there. And, um, you know, this university's been instrumental and you, and honestly you personally, and then Lindner is a, is the business college, um, have been critical to the growth of Fifth Third and to the culture that's been created. So we love partnering with you guys and, and I look forward to continuing to do that. So thank you guys and thank you personally, Marianne.

Marianne Lewis: (38:56)
Absolutely. Jude. Yeah. Thank you. Onward. Absolutely. And go Bearcats. Yes,

Jude Schramm: (38:59)
Go Bearcats.

Grant Freking: (39:00)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl h Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode. All right. So Dustin, thank you for being here. You are the CEO of two companies, ranger Steel and Craft force. How do you have the bandwidth to head two companies and is there a relationship between the two organizations?

Dustin Grutza: (00:43)
There is a relationship that makes it a lot easier to have the bandwidth, thankfully, but, um, you know, managing time that, that is the biggest thing that I have to, uh, factor in, helped. I can imagine. I've, yeah, I've helped from a lot of my team members in doing so, and have a lot of leaders that I have in positions that can take care of what they need to do. So a big part of that is not just, um, there's, there is my time management, but my time management and, um, delegating the right things, having the right team members on board so that it's not all on me at all. I, I would never say that being a CEO, if you do not have a good team, you're not gonna have a good company. And, uh, I totally, I'm thankful for the team that I do have and all the work that they're able to do because without 'em it would not happen.

Grant Freking: (01:28)
Ranger is something that was founded by your parents, correct?

Dustin Grutza: (01:31)
Yes, it was actually, we are in our 30th year, so 30 years going strong. I'd say I kind of took over about 10 years ago as far as, uh, really I came to the business 15, but okay. About 10 years ago, really started taking it over and pushing things and then, um, got named CEO last year. And so, uh, we're trying to really take things to the next level.

Grant Freking: (01:51)
What role has that played in your own separate entrepreneurial journey, which we'll kind of get to your other individual contributions and companies, but what is role has like kind of growing up in the family business played in that?

Dustin Grutza: (02:01)
I think it's played, played a large role. You know, when seeing my parents start their business, kind of go from my mom working in a daycare, um, yeah, having about 40 kids and owning a daycare, working at nights, doing bookkeeping. As my dad was starting a company, him and a couple other guys and some trucks, um, pushing things on the heavy industrial side, you know, trying to kind of live that American dream. To now we have like 24 trucks and, you know, Freightliners and Cranes and all the different stuff. And kind of seeing that growth as I was, uh, I think they started when I was, what, 10 years old? Yeah. So seeing that, um, change not just, um, the work that they're putting into it, working day and night, but also, uh, how that impacted, uh, what they're able to do outside of work and, uh, be involved in different things. So I think seeing that, and then I was naturally kind of brought into leadership roles my whole life, uh, especially when you're young athletics, right? As a point point guard or I was a quarterback, I just kind of fell into these like leadership roles. So it only felt right. I think that in my stepping stones as working and moving through things that, that was, I was bound to become , A CEO or in some sort of a leadership role in my life. Yeah, there's

Grant Freking: (03:14)
Like a tone of fulfillment. I can sense in your voice. Were you inspired by your parents in, in kind of witnessing this?

Dustin Grutza: (03:20)
A thousand percent. I mean, they are workers like . My dad, like if they're going on vacation to go sit on a beach, they're gonna sit on the beach for a little bit, but they're gonna be walking, they're gonna be doing stuff. Yeah. My dad's looking for work. He loves farming, you know, he is got, he's still involved very heavily at Ranger, but loves to do something else all the time. It's the same with my mom. And so seeing that attitude, that mentality, that work ethic, uh, through my life, I mean, I think it helped instill the grit in me in the same way. And, uh, when I was playing sports here at uc, it was kind of the same thing. You know, I wasn't the biggest guy, I wasn't the fastest guy. Um, but I was starting and pushing in, in a leadership role the whole time because of that. You know, it's like you want it and go work for it.

Grant Freking: (04:03)
Right. How do you compare and contrast the running the two companies as, as we've talked about, ranger as a family business that you grew up with and in craft force with something that you founded years ago. So how do you compare and contrast the two?

Dustin Grutza: (04:17)
Um, very different and, um, many ways. Okay. I'll start by talking about like my own company, right? So in starting at craft force and starting my own thing, um, I am able to instill a lot of the practices or leadership qualities, uh, that I think are the most important in how we communicate and how we do a lot of our, our work, right? So by doing that, I have more influence, and I wouldn't say control it, but have I am able to build it from the ground up. With my parents' business, they didn't have a lot of that background. They were grinding and pushing and growing and also in a different time. And so that company grew and was expanding, but I think there was less of that. Let's set up the structure. Let's make sure we have the right pieces in place so that we can grow more.

Dustin Grutza: (05:03)
It was more like grow and figure it out in a lot of ways. And so, which is great, and that's how you do, that's how you do businesses. Um, but, um, I think with that, uh, coming into a family business, I think a lot of people who have family businesses can kind of relate as you are growing or trying to make, uh, changes that might be for the better. It's a little more difficult because you need to get everybody on board, right? And, um, as you're doing that and changing a way we're creatures of habit, uh, you know, creatures of routine making those changes are a little bit more difficult, uh, midway through. So, um, that's been some of the challenges, but also a way that I think I've seen successes of certain things of craft force and certain things that we've tried that haven't worked. But by having that smaller company that've started from the beginning that we've kind of built this around, I've been able to instill some of those practices into Ranger, which has helped it, uh, as it's been really growing over the past few years.

Grant Freking: (06:01)
Let's, let's wind the clock back even a little bit more. Why did you wanna get your business education at Lindner and the University of Cincinnati?

Dustin Grutza: (06:09)
Uh, you know, this is a great school. Uh, uh, university of Cincinnati was close to home. Um, a lot of choosing Cincinnati had to do with sports at that time, right? Um, so I was coming here and actually the engineering school had a big part too. I was looking at how, how do I find a degree that kind of combines business and engineering. Okay. And, um, I thought at first I was just gonna get my mechanical engineering degree and then get a MBA afterwards. I was kind of the, the game plan. But, um, as you get going, you realize if you're gonna be a full-time, uh, athlete and play quarterback, you may not have time for co-ops and other, uh, pieces of that puzzle, uh, related to the engineering side. But on the business side, I could do a lot of, uh, the other programs and kind you could co-op at different times or summer or work for other entities.

Dustin Grutza: (06:54)
So it worked out as a better option. They had a, a combined degree for me and, uh, but choosing, choosing University of Cincinnati had to do with, um, it's great school. Um, loved the city of Cincinnati. It was close to home. Parents would be able to come watch me play and do all those different things. But the school itself had all the pluses and I saw the ways that the co-op program brought out, uh, just enabled you to get in touch with the city and help the city grow. And I think that's still the case. So many people who go through the co-op program, they find their university or their find, they find their, their landing, um, position or, or company, I should say, their career through that co-op program and continue it from there.

Grant Freking: (07:38)
Right. We touched on leadership a little bit earlier, um, and I want to revisit that. You mentioned being the quarterback and point guard growing up, and you were the quarterback of the football team here at uc. How did being the quarterback influence your views on leadership and culture and team building and any, is, how much of that is translatable to what you do now?

Dustin Grutza: (08:00)
Uh, all, all of it. I mean, in every way. I, I think, I think sports, um, transfers into business very easily, um, because of coaches and pushing things and, and how, uh, you have to have leaders within, especially in football leaders within each division, right? You have a linebacker, uh, core. You have safeties and defensive backs. You have offensive line, you have quarterbacks, receivers, you have these different segments, but you need a leader within each one of those. And then you need a leader for the whole offense and leader for the whole defense and a leader on the field for the whole team, you know, the captains, and then you need the coach. You have your coaches who are the leaders. And so you have to have that same structure in business. In order to be really successful, you need leaders at all areas. So like when I, looking at the construction business, you have leaders in, obviously your executive, your finance, your operations off the operations.

Dustin Grutza: (08:53)
You may have different divisions that someone needs to be leading those divisions, right? And then all the way to the job that you're doing, uh, you get down to a four man crew pushing a job. Maybe they're building a building, right? You need someone leading that crew helping make sure everything's going the right way. And so that continuation of leadership and having the same message and the same values, um, you see that through football and that transfers right into business. So I think there is a great collaboration there. Yeah. And so I learned all that through football, I feel like. And so as I went into the workforce, it was like, oh, this all makes so much sense.

Grant Freking: (09:26)
And now that you've ascended to leadership positions in two companies, how do you determine the leaders that are under you? Do they reveal themselves or do you have, do push people? How does that work for you?

Dustin Grutza: (09:38)
Usually they're, they reveal themselves. Okay. They come asking for more, and not just like more money or anything like that. They finish something and they're looking, they have more time. They wanna do more. They have ideas that they bring forward. They start showing themselves as leaders within what they're doing and the group that they're working in. And others go to them for answers, um, and start working with them. And they just kind of, many times they show themselves. But as you're recruiting those types of people, or you're recruiting people in, um, lots of times that's what you're looking for. You're, you're looking for the intangibles of who they are, how they are, uh, more so than their experience. And, oh, I worked on these jobs and I have this, you might find someone who didn't work on at all at a position who has ended up going to run that division because they're willing to learn and they're work hard, and they have what it takes in so many other ways. They just needed some experience at what that is.

Grant Freking: (10:30)
Yeah. Just needed the opportunity. Right? Yeah. You've co-founded several companies since you earned your undergraduate and MBA degrees from Lindner. What voids were you seeking to fill with those startups, and what did you learn from those experiences?

Dustin Grutza: (10:42)
I think at the time I didn't think, uh, ranger was going to be like the landing spot for me. I think family business, I, I knew I, I could go in and help them, help them grow, but I thought, you know, there might be something else that I want to kind of build and put my name to. And, um, those other companies, I had ideas coming out. I did the entrepreneurial, uh, integrals here at College of Business then. And so I was very, I don't know, enamored by the startup world, what it can be. And as I started pushing those different companies, um, I always say fail early. Fail fast. You know, push everything as hard as you can early on. And if it's gonna fail and you see that it's gonna fail, then, then know that that's, that's not the right direction. Either pivot within that company or say, that was fun. That was great effort learned a lot. 'cause that, that's the biggest thing from each of those, uh, companies that I may have partnered into or we started, um, that didn't end up, you know, making it, I learned so much that was applicable to our other companies. Um,

Grant Freking: (11:47)
Yeah. How did, let's push on that further. What are, what are some of the, you know, things when, when you're sitting at your office today and something comes up or whatever, it's some sort of situation like, oh, I remember this from the startup days. What, what are some of the sort of, the examples of that you can think of?

Dustin Grutza: (12:01)
I think one big one would be relationships. Okay. Um, so as you were talking about building, building teams and doing all those different things, that's very important. But, um, sometimes you look at like, what's the core of a business? I take craft force, right? It's staffing in the trades. That's what we do. We find, uh, the best skilled trade workers, um, and we place them on jobs all across the country. And then, you know, that stems up to engineers and to laborers. But that's kind of our main focus. Well, we try to replace it with an app, think, uh, LinkedIn, um, think of those types of apps that are, uh, going to have communication through a network, but we wanted people to be able to hire through it as well. More like indeed, I would say,

Grant Freking: (12:41)
Yeah, create that link.

Dustin Grutza: (12:43)
So we tried to do all this where tech would be us and replace us, but what we found out is like, we're all human, you know? And so certain parts of what we wanna do, deal with and work for work in business has to do with the relationships that we can have. And so we found out that the people, especially who work in the trades, want those relationships. They want someone to help them act as almost like an agent if you were thinking of acting or, you know, the arts, like they're working all day so they don't have time to work on their next job. So they need someone to act in that way and have their best interest and understand what they really want. And so by trying to do that with tech, it didn't fill the void. It, it actually created, um, it made our business much more difficult.

Dustin Grutza: (13:28)
And what we learned, we ended up trashing that whole tech side. We thought that was gonna be our, our leg out. That was gonna be our, you know, multimillion dollar idea. We're gonna a differentiator. Yeah, we're gonna, this, we're gonna be the first in the trades to do this. Other trade companies have tried to do it has not worked either because it's a relationship, um, industry that is very much focused on, uh, on that side of things. So, uh, we learned from that and what our core competency, competency was as a company. So now, as far as how we do staffing and everything else, it's all about relationships. Everything we do, recruiting our clients, everything is all about relationships. And, and so we stay boutique because of that, because we know it's more important for us to have really strong relationships with our clients and the recruiting that we do. All of our different, our workforce versus, um, we don't need those relationships. We're just gonna let tech do it, and we're gonna have win by having the masses.

Grant Freking: (14:21)
Right. Well, speaking of relationships and engagement, you've become involved with uc and Lindner as an alum. Let's begin with your time with the Center for Entrepreneurship, for example, speaking like, uh, just the most recent example that I know of, you were involved with uc Startup Weekend. Yeah. Tell me about that and what other, what other things you're involved with, I guess the Entrepreneurship Center. We'll start there.

Dustin Grutza: (14:43)
Yeah. Um, 1819 Hub, um, we have some great relationships over there. Uh, Kate and some of the crew have kind of really brought us in to, uh, do more and more and, um, love to go over there and speak when I have the chance. But, uh, startup Weekend recently, they brought me in to be kind of a final judge, which was fun, you know, being the shark in the room. But, uh, honestly, the gr I learned just as much doing that because I got to hear what I'd say the youth, you know, I guess I'm getting old now, but, uh, uh, everyone here at the university sees as the greatest problems and what, what in our world that they need to solve, that they're trying to solve with apps or whatever it may be, right? The businesses that they see we need in our world in order to handle those, those problems. And so for me, understanding what problems they see versus what I might've thought was completely different. So I learned so much about that. And then also got to see how applications of, um, putting decks together, market research, how ai, uh, connects to all this. Now I got to see how the students are able to do that in different ways. And, um, it was, like I said, it was a learning experience on my side, but also great to see how far along the students are going through this university.

Grant Freking: (16:03)
So what are, what were some of your more specific takeaways in, in dealing with students? What are they coming to you for advice for? I guess maybe specifically as a business owner?

Dustin Grutza: (16:12)
Uh, I think they are coming for the leadership. Um, how, how have I been able to build what I have? Um, how do you continue that success and then the network, you know, I think when I spoke a few different times to them or had off conversations, a lot of it was talking about how, how do you get to where you're at and what steps do I need to take? And so I talk a lot about networking, how great Cincinnati is for that. Uh, you have business leaders all over the community who are willing to go have breakfast with you, who are willing to help, uh, who actually care. So you have that, that side of, um, you know, that Midwest, um, niceness approach that Yeah, they're approachable. Yeah. Yeah. That you can actually get a, I get advisors, have mentors, do all the different things that, um, is way more difficult if you're in the Bay or, you know, New York City or something like that.

Dustin Grutza: (17:03)
So I also learned from the businesses that they're trying to build, it was all about relationships. So everyone seems to want to have more phone down personal relationships, which for me, in my business is like exactly what we do as I was talking before. Yeah. So I was able to touch base on that, and I think it connected really well with me. Yeah. You know, that connection of, Hey, we need more time with our phones down. We need to have personal relationships with people, and how do we get there? And I think, I think the youth of, you know, of our world are trying to figure that out right now because they're so tied to their phones.

Grant Freking: (17:44)
Right. What are some of the other involvement you've had, uh, I guess maybe more recently or in the past with, um, Lindner or uc? I think you, you, I know you've been touch involved with athletics too in the past.

Dustin Grutza: (17:54)
Yeah. Uh, I do a lot with athletic athletics. Actually, I'm the head of our, you know, director of our alumni for the football side. Um, I meet with a lot of the team there with athletic department, but on the lender side, I've, uh, stayed in touch with the entrepreneurship, um, team a lot. So like Chuck Matthews. Yep. And I, I'll go speak at some of his classes. I talk with him fairly often. So, um, definitely stay connected through that entrepreneurship side because of all that I do there. All right.

Grant Freking: (18:23)
Let's close with this. Instead of me being a 37-year-old individual, now, I'm, now, I'm 18, what's two maybe bits of advice you'd you'd give to me as if I'm like a bright-eyed, bushy tailed freshman walking through these buildings to sort of like, calm my anxieties and, and kind of help me get on my path to success here at Lindner?

Dustin Grutza: (18:42)
I, I would, I would tell you that everyone has that fear of going up and saying hi first. Mm-hmm. And asking for something and asking for help or talking to someone even, you know, just that first initial contact, right? Sometimes you're nervous and you're like, the part of the hole. Should I do that? Should I, should I stay at this event? Should I do certain things? Yeah. Once you're past that, it's, it's good, but everybody has it. So like saying hi to someone, maybe they're wanting to say hi to you, but they're nervous too, right? But in, in doing that, I say also reaching out to people who you may want to be mentors and all those things. They may want to be a mentor. They may be looking for those opportunities and care, but not know how to do it. So as an 18-year-old, go reach out to as many people as you can. Go, go to breakfasts, go to networking events, go talk to everyone, especially those who you aspire to be like and who you look up to, because they will help you along the way, and that will help shape you and build the confidence that you need to have the success that you're gonna have in your life.

Grant Freking: (19:41)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode, Kyla, so where are you from and what brought you to Lindner and uc?

Kyla Ward: (00:34)
Yeah. I'm from Englewood, Ohio, about 15 minutes away from Dayton. Um, I was always looking to stay close to home, so uc was always a school that was kind of in my, on my radar. Um, I didn't think I was gonna go to uc or ud. I had it in my mind that like, they were too close. You know, I wasn't gonna do it, but I visited with my mom and she was more convinced of the co-op program than I was at first, but I'm learning she's 90%, 99% of the time she's right. So, um, uh, very inspired, I guess is the right word by that program. And kind of seeing the potential that I had there to, uh, really figure out and hone in on what I wanted to do, which I wasn't certain of. And so after I interviewed for Lindner Business Honors, got into that program. I also am a Cincinnati presidential scholar, and that was something that was really important to me is, um, making sure that I had a way to pay for my education. And then the co-op was kind of a bonus on top of that, and it just ended up, uh, being uc. So that ended up being the right choice. Right.

Grant Freking: (01:30)
And we'll get to this in a second, but you've certainly taken full advantage of the co-op program, which is what we love to see. Yeah. You mentioned your mother. Who were the other influences and what are the moments that have shaped who you are today?

Kyla Ward: (01:40)
Yeah, I am definitely a culmination of all of the, like, amazing people that I've learned from. I think mentors are a big thing in my life, even if it's, I mean, as early as, you know, like elementary school teachers and just certain lessons. Um, I try to take, somebody told me once, like if I went through it, I'm, you know, trying to give you this wisdom so you don't have to. So going through with that perspective has been important for me. Um, so yeah, my mom is the biggest one for sure. Um, don't know what I would do without her. She is, I am her mini me in in every sense of the word. Um, but yeah, definitely learning from the lessons that she, that she has had or, you know, like the different, um, the different mentors I've had in my life. So, um, yeah, but I think to name a few, I mean, I know I had some, like middle school teachers, for instance, uh, shout out to Ms. MCC and Miss Isle. If they listen to this, I'm gonna send it to 'em. , no. But, um, yeah, they're just a, like tiny lessons in life from like, as early as okay, helping me figure out kind of what I'm passionate about and honing some of my interests and all the energy I had into, like, actionable items. And I think I've found that through leadership, and that's just because of the guidance that I've gotten from all the incredible people in my life. So, yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (02:53)
That's great to hear. What was your original plan when you entered college in the Lindner College of Business? And how does that compare to what you're doing now?

Kyla Ward: (03:00)
Yeah. I don't know if I would say I even really had a full plan. I think I had an idea, so, okay. Um, I was kind of all over the place, to be honest, but I thought I was gonna do biomedical engineering at one point, and then I was really called to graphic design. But overall, I just figured out that I wanted to be in a leadership role in some capacity, so I ended up sticking with operations management. I've changed my major a few times since freshman year in terms of what to pair it with, but I finally landed on operations management and a certificate in business analytics. So kind of figuring out, um, you know, the, the leadership aspect in terms of being able to be a project manager or have some HR role is kind of where I'm, where I've ended up right now.

Grant Freking: (03:44)
Yeah. And for any students that might be listening prospective or current, changing your major is completely normal. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (03:49)
Yeah. One or five or six. Right.

Grant Freking: (03:53)
Let's talk about co-ops. You've had plenty. Um, but your first one with Alta fiber mm-hmm . Was the result of some, um, good networking on, on your, your behalf. Talk me through how you got that one. A

Kyla Ward: (04:04)
Hundred percent. Um, I've been just talking to students. I've talked to a couple students this week, some freshmen, and a big thing, especially when it comes to co-op, that I feel like we don't talk enough about just like follow through. Um mm-hmm. I was doing my SWOT analysis project, which we all do freshman year. Um, I had Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, which was an amazing company to work with. I ended up presenting on the same day that Alta Fiber did. So it was Cincinnati Youth Collaborative and Alta Fiber presenting. I wasn't really thinking much about Alta Fiber, that wasn't the group that I was a part of, but I ended up presenting in front of, um, one of their leaders and she took a special interest in me. Um, she's not at the company anymore, but at the time she asked my professor about me and just, uh, you know, if I was looking for any co opportunities, she ended up sending me her information. We met over winter break, and by that spring semester I had had a co-op and was able to network with a few people from just her kind of taking a special interest in me, which was really great.

Grant Freking: (04:58)
Yeah. Aside from gaining the co-op, what else did you take away from that experience about being a professional?

Kyla Ward: (05:04)
Yeah. I, I think freshman year you learn this a lot, especially in the business school. Um, when you're giving presentations and you're networking, you're at the career fair, et cetera, but you, you never know who's watching. Um, you, uh, I think that, you know, kinda goes back to integrity and making sure that you are, even when people aren't watching, you're kind of, um, you know, making sure that you're holding yourself to the same, um, the same standard, if that makes sense. Yeah. So even though, even though I knew that I wasn't necessarily gonna get a co-op with Cincinnati Youth Collaborative, I think the, um, professionalism and, um, passion that I showed for that project definitely stood out to another company. So, yeah, just, you never know who's watching and make sure that you're showing up your best self as much as you can. Right.

Grant Freking: (05:45)
And you may not have been able to get a co-op with CYC, but they may have known someone if they were impressed by you, like, hey, exactly. In the more traditional corporate world or whomever else be like, Hey, you should look to the student, contact her professor and get in touch with her. That, things like that, that can happen too. For sure. How have you grown and been pushed, uh, through the various co-ops you've had? Uh, let's focus maybe on like, I guess the harder skills and we can talk about the soft skills.

Kyla Ward: (06:06)
Yeah. Um, I think when you go into a co-op, you obviously haven't taken all of your classes yet, so there's a lot of learning. I, I know like the first co-op that I had, even the second one I remember every day, like I was learning at least three new things when it came to, um, the different business practices that all these different companies have. And so I think that was definitely one of the harder parts for me in terms of the work. Um, but yeah, I I

Grant Freking: (06:34)
It's a lot coming at you. Yes.

Kyla Ward: (06:36)
Yeah. Yes. It's a lot coming at you, uh, at once for sure.

Grant Freking: (06:39)
Yeah. And then maybe some of like the softer skills. 'cause I know you have a love of love of leadership, and how have you kind of gleaned lessons from your various co-ops? You know, we talked about Alta Fiber, but you also have done co-op with Trimble, Delta Airlines, GE Aerospace, to name just a few here. Yeah. What are some of the other, I guess, maybe soft skills that you've picked up along the way? Mm-hmm

Kyla Ward: (06:57)
. I think in all of those different co-ops that I've had now, kind of being at the end of them, I'm going back to Delta, but I think I've learned one of the soft skills right now I'm working on, like, maintaining that network. Um, the, the relationships that I was able to foster at these different companies or with different bosses, that kind of thing. Um, working now to make sure that I am not leveraging those well. Yeah. Like leveraging those connections. Yeah. And, um, maintaining them, kind of learning how to use that to my advantage right now, um, to make sure that I am keeping those in my back pocket, if that makes sense. Yeah,

Grant Freking: (07:33)
Absolutely. And when you've gone on these co-op learnings, you're, as we mentioned, taking in a lot, how has that translated or fit into your classroom learnings your more traditional classroom learnings here at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (07:43)
Yeah, I was just, I just got done with my OM 40 76 class, and I think being able to take, which I didn't know at the time, maybe necessarily everything that went into inventory or, you know, working in a warehouse at Trimble at ge, learning the things I'm learning in class, being able to kind of backtrack and apply them to what I saw or what I experienced at these companies has definitely helped my, my learning and just understanding of certain concepts. So that's been nice to, to have for sure in the classroom.

Grant Freking: (08:13)
Yeah. I'm sure on these co-ops who you were put in some tough and moments where you had to maybe show some that, that grit that we talk about here at Lindner. Yeah. How did you handle those moments of being outside your comfort zone and responding to those professionally?

Kyla Ward: (08:26)
A hundred percent. I I think that's another reason I love co-op is because it does put you in some of those maybe uncomfortable or, um, just unfamiliar professional situations that you have to be able to navigate. So, um, I think I've learned a lot, especially from like my internship at ge, how to advocate for myself. You know, if something isn't working or something doesn't feel that it's necessarily right for you, um, how do you advocate for yourself early enough? One, um, not waiting to ask for help. I think that's one of the things that I've, I've definitely learned at these co-ops. Yeah. Um, and how to one, like have proper documentation of the things that, you know, maybe might be going on or being able to, um, being able to take certain experiences and communicate them professionally is something I, I, I learned a lot too. Um, but it ended up working out and all those lessons, I'm so thankful that I experienced before getting into, you know, a full-time role where, you know, if I did experience them, you know, this is a full-time, like co-op, there's less stakes in it. Um, yeah. So you do, you get to make mistakes and, and learn from them before you do, you know, go into something full-time, which I'm really grateful for.

Grant Freking: (09:34)
Right. And to build off that, the co-ops have also allowed you to figure out what you maybe necessarily don't want to do a hundred percent full time too, which is, uh, the benefit of doing the multiple co-ops, um,

Kyla Ward: (09:44)
Yeah. Arguably maybe even more important. Yeah. Right.

Grant Freking: (09:46)
Yeah. Let's transition to some of your, uh, involvement outside co-op, you know, student organizations. I know that's important to you. Yeah. And why, why is it important to you sort of to not only be involved with the student orgs, but to sort of embrace the leadership portion of, of those organizations?

Kyla Ward: (10:00)
Yeah. I love class. I love learning, but I go to school for the connections and for the impact and leadership I'm able to do in, um, the organizations I'm a part of. It's been that way since, um, high school. I was like the cliche class president, um, created the Black student union at my high school, things like that. So it's always been important to me. Um, I was just thinking about this, about how I think representation is a huge part of it, whether it's, um, just making sure that, you know, we're being rep, those who look like me are being represented in rooms and spaces, um, especially in these bigger organizations, um, that you may be a part of. So that's, I think that's why it's the number one reason why it's so important to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (10:44)
Awesome. And, um, unfortunately for you, you're closer to the end of your undergraduate career than you are to the beginning. Yeah. When you think about the purpose or direction you want to have in your career, what comes to mind?

Kyla Ward: (10:56)
Yeah. It's so, it's so crazy that I'm already having to think about this. And I, me and my friends are just talking about like, we'll have full-time job offers in the next year, which is, yeah. Couldn't think about it too much, but , um, I think I have been trying to figure out for so long, like, okay, what do I wanna do? But like, specifically like the work that I wanna do. But I think when I, when I look back at my career, I want to, I, it goes back to the representation piece and the impact, like having, being able to, um, show those who look like me, that like, you are supposed to be in like the room where it happened, for lack of better words, but, um, there's a space for you. There's a space for you to be able to make a difference. I want to look back and be able to say that I had a positive impact on, you know, spaces that maybe I didn't think that I would be able to before. So especially in the corporate world, um, I'm not going into finance or, you know, anything like that. But yeah. Um, being in a corporate space and being able to make a positive impact is in helping others. I just ultimately wanna look back and be able to say that. Right. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (12:02)
And, okay, so instead of talking to me, you're now talking to a prospective Lindner student. Mm-hmm . Some 17, 18-year-old from wherever. Yeah.

Kyla Ward: (12:08)
What's

Grant Freking: (12:09)
Your advice to them?

Kyla Ward: (12:11)
I think the biggest advice I have, I think it just comes off of the, the lessons I've learned in the, uh, past semester. But we co-op is such an incredible opportunity, and I think that, um, Lindner does an amazing job of equipping you with the, uh, skills and the things that you need to be able to complete that co-op. I think my advice to future students is to think about, you know, a job is much more than just like the work that you're doing. Where, where are you working? Like, who are you working with? Thinking about those things. And if it doesn't feel, you know, maybe right in your gut or you. You know, the right path for you. Um, trust that. I, there was a co-op, I worked with the admissions team and a few of, you know, the most influential, and people in my life were saying, yeah, well, maybe this isn't, you know, necessarily exactly what you wanna do.

Kyla Ward: (13:00)
It's, you know, didn't pay as much maybe as your last co-op or, you know, this isn't exactly where your, um, like, it's not gonna be as impactful for your career. Right. Yeah. And if I would've took that advice, I wouldn't have met some of the incredible people that I did, and I wouldn't have had Delta, um, my dream co-op at Delta and be been able to make those connections through, through the college that way. So if there's something and you feel like it's calling you, it might not, you know, necess, whether it's an organization or a co-op, um, if you think it's right for you, definitely take that time. It's, I was thinking about this earlier, it's a weird transition of coming from high school into college where you are, you know, your parents and your, um, your guardians or your role models are who you listen to.

Kyla Ward: (13:42)
Like, they're, they're, they're making majority of the decisions for you. Right. And college is a big transition where you start to do that on your own. And sometimes, um, you grow a lot, especially your freshman year. Sometimes you, um, you change, and some things that others may perceive to be the right thing for you isn't anymore. And so I think that's been, that's a hard lesson that you learn in college, but I would give future students just the, the encouragement to, to trust their gut and go for things that they think is right for them, even, you know, maybe if others, others aren't seeing that. Right.

Grant Freking: (14:18)
Thanks for sharing that. I'll get you outta here on this one. Mm-hmm . In 20 years, what do you think you'll remember the most about your time at Lindner?

Kyla Ward: (14:25)
Yeah, the people. The people. A hundred percent. I have met so many incredible people. Um, whether it's faculty or students in Lindner. I, I never come in and don't see someone that, you know, has a smiling face or has a question about like, how I'm doing or, you know, what's kind of going on in my, you know, personal, professional, um, experience so far. So I think, I think that's definitely what the thing that I'm gonna realize. And I've made some lifelong connections for sure that I will, I hope that I still have in, in 20 years, but just the support, um, that I've gotten at Lindner community-wise is something I'll always remember.

Grant Freking: (15:02)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Meme Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner. We.