Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Grant Freking: (00:32)
Phil, tell me about like your entrepreneurship origin story. Where can you trace that back to, um, in your younger years? 'cause you started really early on, I think, even earlier than even most entrepreneurs do.

Phil Santoro: (00:44)
Yeah. So my journey started really with an obsession for building and helping people. And at the age of 12, I built a computer for my grandparents as a gift. I had so much fun that I decided to build a computer for myself, mostly to play age of Empires. And so, you know, I was the youngest one in this gaming community. Naturally I was the most tech savvy, and so I was the one to set up the forum for us to all talk on. And if you remember, back in the early two thousands, forums were the center of the internet. I mean, everyone was on forums, and yet they were incredibly difficult to set up. You had to be technical enough to know PHP and MySQL. You had to buy a domain name and, and web hosting. And so my thesis was remove all the friction and then create a platform where people could sign up for free.

Phil Santoro: (01:33)
And I started my first company when I was 13 in 2002 that did just that people could sign up for a forum. And then in 2007, that's when I launched free forums.org, um, when I was at Madeira High School. And that was an improvement on the platform, you know, more features, easier to use. I spent a lot of time just thinking through every single thing that people needed to talk on the internet. And it took off instantly. We had all kinds of forums. The the largest was a Twilight Moms form where a bunch of moms would talk about the Twilight Movie series, but we had cyclists, gamers, um, sports leagues, any, anything you could think of right. Was on Free Forums. And yeah. At, at our peak we were doing over 125 million monthly page views, which this was pre-social media. That's incredible. Pres smart phones. This, this was a lot of traffic. And here I was in my parents' basement in Madeira, , you know, operating this large platform. And so this really taught me my first lesson about business, which is you take a technical problem and you solve it with an easy product, people will use it.

Grant Freking: (02:42)
So what was like, did you have a template you were working off of? Was you started your, even your journey with Free Forums, did you have like a template or something, an idea in mind? Or were you, was it more learning as you go in this process?

Phil Santoro: (02:51)
Yeah, I completely, first principle is learning by doing. And I didn't even start out to run a business. I started out because I wanted to help people make forums. And it was, it was pretty cool to do that on the internet, you know, back then. So really by, by 2002, there wasn't a way to make money on the internet with forums. That monetization came much later. And eventually in 2008, that's when Google Ads came out. So you could run ads on your website for the first time, right? To make income. Um, but originally it was just to do something cool and, and help people.

Grant Freking: (03:28)
Right. And you spoke earlier about sort of the vacancy you saw with for something as, you know, forgive me as simple as, as a forum mm-hmm . Is that something that you, even going back to your even younger years before you built your first computer for your grandparents starting to see when you started Stu, when you studied and zoned in on something was like, all right, how can I, what's the missing part of this? And how could I possibly make it better?

Phil Santoro: (03:51)
I, I think so, but I think it was more foundational for me. I just like building. Yeah, okay. And I think there's a very unique part of entrepreneurship where you have an idea, you write it down on a piece of paper, and these ideas could come at 2:00 AM or or 2:00 PM during launch any hour of the day, you write it down on a piece of paper, you execute it, you build it, and then you watch millions of people interact with it and enjoy it. And you get a rush from that. That is very unique to entrepreneurship. And, and I picked up on that early. Sure.

Grant Freking: (04:22)
So fast forward a couple years, you're getting ready to pick a, a college, and I'm sure you had many options. Um, and you had, you're also unique in the fact that not many students were like you and had successful business ventures. What made, um, what were the factors that led you down to staying close to home and choosing the Lindner College of Business? In University of Cincinnati,

Phil Santoro: (04:43)
I was living a double life. You know, during the day, , I was a student at Madeira, struggling with biology exams and playing baseball. And then at night I was leading this global forum platform and conferencing with my team until 3:00 AM So I, I knew I wanted to stay somewhere around Cincinnati because I had my business there. I had infrastructure, my computer development, server advisors, mentors, uh, my bank, you know, all the physical component. So I knew I wanted to stay around there, but it was really meeting Dr. Chuck Matthews in the entrepreneurship department. I met with him, had a great conversation, was really impressed by his vision for entrepreneurs and, and student entrepreneurs specifically. And so he was the one that really put it, um, uh, sort of decided, you know, I decided I wanted to go to uc after meeting him.

Grant Freking: (05:37)
And so did he appealed to that part of you that wants to build and scale?

Phil Santoro: (05:40)
Yep, exactly. And then I moved into uc. I actually had two dorm rooms, um, one for me to sleep in. I was at Stratford Heights and then UPA and I had one dorm room to sleep in and one for my business. I had my development server in there and all my computers. And so in the morning before class i'd, I'd roll out of bed, go to the dorm room next door, you know, check on my business, make sure nothing had broken overnight, and then would walk to class. And I, I still remember to this day how hot that room got because they're, you know, they're tiny rooms and I had all this equipment in there, so it, uh, it would heat up.

Grant Freking: (06:16)
What was the reaction for, I guess, your, your fellow classmates and also maybe your other professors that weren't Chuck when you told 'em about this sort of actual business you were running in addition to being a student?

Phil Santoro: (06:26)
Yeah, I think I kept a lot of it private until I sold Free Forums. Okay. So there, there was an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer. So a lot of high school students knew about it at that time, but I kept most of it private. I was just heads down building. Uh, and then when I came to uc, I, I, there were so many great professors that I would meet with during office hours and learn from because I had this unique ability to learn something in the classroom and then apply it literally that next, that next day, maybe even the same day in my business. And I found that very valuable. I, I had a lot of great relationships with professors, and I think they ultimately realized that, um, I was interested in the subject, not just getting a good grade in the class. And so they were willing to help out. Sure.

Grant Freking: (07:15)
And you decided as a sophomore to exit Free Forums. So the first thing that you actually created, how was, was that difficult or did you know you were wanting to move on to something else? How, what was that process like as your first exit?

Phil Santoro: (07:26)
I was burnt out by my sophomore year of college. You know, they say, at least for me at the time, they said, uh, grades, social life and sleep. And you can pick two of those as a college student, except I had a business to add into that, and I could still only pick two. And so I was burnt out. I was tired. I had been working seven years plus school at that point, and I just wanted to be a normal student for, for part of my college. Um, and so I, I sold Free Forums to a public company crowd Gather in, uh, spring of 2010. And that was, that was a big milestone for me. It, it was financially great, but more importantly gave me my time back and I got to really enjoy the last two years at uc.

Grant Freking: (08:14)
What was your overall experience like as a, as a student entrepreneur at this time? Maybe also looking at other things, even be maybe before you an you exited free forums and then maybe after free forums. What did you do with the time? I guess you had left before you got like a, a real job, so to speak.

Phil Santoro: (08:29)
Yeah, it was, it's, it wasn't as glamorous as it sounds talking through it because, um, I was just sort of heads down on the business and grades, so it was definitely challenging, but I would say the ability to apply what I was learning was very cool. And what Lindner gave me was a more structured approach to business. I had the first principles, I, I was running a business, but I didn't know how to read a balance sheet, for example. Mm. And there's actually a, a funny story. Uh, professor Nugent, corporate Finance, incredible class. I learned a lot from it. So we do this project at the end of my senior year where a company's going through a transaction. You have to make a balance sheet, reflect that transaction and model it out in Excel. And I'm, I'm here post Free Forums just wanting to dive in and make the perfect model. I had time, I had the experience of going through an exit. I wanted to work in finance. I'm like, this is it. And I worked for weeks on this. And he, he said at the beginning, he said, balance sheets are called balance sheets because they balance assets have to equal liabilities and equity. If you don't balance your balance sheet, I will give you a zero on this. And some of you will not balance your balance sheet. So he said that over and over and over. I bet you can tell where this is going. I

Grant Freking: (09:54)
Have an incl

Phil Santoro: (09:55)
, so I work on this and I'm getting the perfect model dialed in, and I'm, I'm working very hard. Uh, I get to the, the very last step before I submit it, and I wanna make one tiny change. And after I do that change perfect model, I, I, I feel like on my side, so I submit it, balance sheet doesn't balance. And he was so disappointed. I was, I was more disappointed. Um, but luckily he didn't give me a zero on it, and other students did that, but he, he knew exactly that that would happen. And that's the type of knowledge that you learn in school that now to this day, I look at a lot of balance sheets and I will never ever forget that lesson. Uh, and so having that, that ability to make mistakes and learn from things in school and then apply that later, really gave me that more formal business acumen education that I didn't get running Free Forums.

Grant Freking: (10:54)
Sure. It sounds like Lindner almost helped fill in some of the gaps you didn't have from running a business. What were some, any other examples you can think of of like, you know, I didn't even experience this sort of thing, um, with Free Forums, but I'm experiencing it now in an actual classroom.

Phil Santoro: (11:10)
I'd say all the soft skills. Yeah. Um, you know, I was in student government, director of technology, tried to get involved with campus honors program and all of that. And just when you're online, like I was in my parents' basement on Skype at the time, you don't learn the actual soft skills, leadership, public speaking, just the whole gamut. You don't learn that stuff. So getting that through a different avenue is very important because when you start a company, you have to wear all the hats. Literally, you're wearing all of them until you hire people to do those things. And so, whether it's finance or accounting or BI or business law or public speaking, all of these more soft skills that you don't pick up until you're in a group with people working on them, uh, was very helpful to have.

Grant Freking: (11:59)
Did you know you needed all those skills at the time? Or is it, were you just kind of take them in stride when you kind of learn them?

Phil Santoro: (12:07)
I think one of the benefits of starting young with a business is you don't know what you don't know. Mm. And so you sort of just rush into it and you do it and you don't think too much about it, which I think is actually a good thing because most people overstate the risk, and that's why they don't want to take the leap. So I don't think at the time I was thinking about that until I was in the moment and going, wow. Public speaking, like, this is going to be useful later. Right. Um, so most of that came while I was doing it.

Grant Freking: (12:38)
Were you actively, like, mapping out your future, you know, and thinking like, oh, we'll get to your next step after Lindner here in a second. Were you actively mapping out, like, this is where I wanna be, in your five years after graduation, 10 years after graduation, having, you know, already founded and sold your own company? Were you the type of person that's planning out that far in advance?

Phil Santoro: (12:56)
It's easy to look back at my resume and think that everything just sort of lined up perfectly since I was 12. And that's definitely not what happened. Um, I had wanted to work for Google after I sold Free Forums. My, my sophomore year. I had wanted to work for Google since I was a kid, since I built my first computer. And so finally senior year throw in my application and I waited and I waited and I waited and never heard back, no rejection, just didn't hear back. And, and I thought, well, okay, I guess I'm not going to Silicon Valley. And so I started going down my option B, which was law school. I wanted to work in intelligence for the FBI wanted to get my master's in finance and become a lawyer, which would have increased my odds. And then for reasons I don't really know, I decided to apply for Google again, same job, same role, same application package. Three months after I just had applied and I heard back the next day and, and they flew me to California. I had my interview and ended up getting a job there. And that was, that was a very important lesson for me on just resolve, if you want something just because you're told no, or, or maybe they just ignore you, that doesn't mean that you can't ask again, what's, what's the worst thing that can happen. Once

Grant Freking: (14:18)
You were settled in Google, did you ever bring this story up to anyone about like, Hey, I never heard from you guys the first time and I suddenly, you know, you know,

Phil Santoro: (14:25)
I, I didn't, but having worked there, I know what happened. It's just big company. Yeah. Problems. It, no one, it wasn't even necessarily about me. It was that there were, there weren't roles at that time. They have specific hiring windows, and when they reopened that window, nobody's going back to look at the past applications from the last four months. They're just looking at the applications coming in now, because there's enough of those. So I, I sort of understand how big companies function now, but at the time it was, it was a MiiR it seemed like a miracle.

Grant Freking: (14:58)
Yeah. That's like really pertinent I think, for any students, whether the current or just graduated that are looking for co-ops or Yes, yes. Some jobs is like, just because you hear no, that window still open, you may have another opening. Yeah, absolutely. So you, you go to Google, you spend two plus years as a growth strategist. Is, was this, did the position you ended up being in, in Google, sort of meet your, I guess, personal expectations that you had when you were younger that you, you mentioned you wanted to always be at Google. Did those, did those coalesce at the end?

Phil Santoro: (15:24)
Yes, it was, it was very intimidating, which I wasn't expecting because Google is just operating at a different level of scale than, than any other company, maybe even globally. And so I'm there as a recent graduate managing tens of millions of dollars of ad spend for these advertisers that are growing with Google. And I'm sitting there after I moved across the country from uc, going, why aren't adults doing this job? I mean, seriously, there's tens of millions of dollars. Why, why am I doing this job? And what I realized is sometimes technology is moving so quickly or things are changing that the college graduate that's hungry, willing to grind for 60 hours a week, they are the right people to work on a specific challenge or problem. And I think that's very applicable to the concerns. Now with ai, there's a lot of concerns about AI and, and how will college students and college graduates, you know, fare and in AI first world? And I think the way I think about it is, if you're in college, you graduate and you embrace ai, you, you learn as much as you can. Those are the people that will pave the future, um, just like it was, you know, at the time. Mm-hmm .

Grant Freking: (16:38)
What were some memorable challenges or obstacles that you encountered that sort of, if I, I mentioned that to you, that sort of popped straight to your mind from your time at Google?

Phil Santoro: (16:48)
For me, it was the scale, just everything. Everything was larger. And so you would work on something and the, the stakes were just higher than you were used to or maybe even comfortable with. You really had to be comfortable being uncomfortable and, and just the scale, uh, the ability to learn on the fly, uh, but also know that, you know, millions of dollars were at stake if, if you made a mistake. I think that's, that's a very valuable lesson that I took and then applied it later when, when I went on to start Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (17:22)
When you got to Google, were you, would you say you were already comfortable being uncomfortable or is it something you had to learn?

Phil Santoro: (17:28)
I'd say I'm learning to this day. Every single day. I have to push myself constantly. It's something I try to do is become a lifelong learner and not just feel like, you know, school is over, learning is is done. Now it's time to do. I've tried to be a lifelong learner and I catch myself all the time. It's okay. I know I'm starting from zero. I know that I'm not going to be the best, you know, starting this now type of thing. Um, but I think especially moving across the country, starting a new job, not knowing anyone, I was sort of fully embracing, you know, being uncomfortable.

Grant Freking: (18:05)
Yeah. And so you decided to leave though, you left Google your, yeah. What was then your dream job? Why? Yeah.

Phil Santoro: (18:11)
So Google is an awesome place. I met a lot of incredible people. I met my wife Ruby there. I met my co-founder David. And after about a year and a half, David and I started brainstorming startup ideas, and we would get lunch every Wednesday and just brainstorm ideas for the whole dinner. And finally, after a year of that, we had a problem. We had so many ideas we wanted to work on and start that we couldn't just leave and start one company. And so we decided to leave and start a startup studio, which is a company that builds companies and that would become Wilbur Labs.

Grant Freking: (18:48)
And so what, what do, when you think about the early days of Wilbur Labs and those, during those lunches, what was, what was the thing that bonded the two of you together and like that and that idea?

Phil Santoro: (18:57)
Yeah, so I, I had started Free Forums. I wanted to work, I wanted to start another startup. David had worked for a startup. He knew that he would eventually found a startup. So we sort of came together because of that mutual interest. But then it was really brainstorming these ideas and thinking about people say the AI bubble or the AI phase that we're in started now, but it, it really started back in 20 15, 20 16. That's when we were exposed to automation machine learning that this is taking over every aspect of business. And David and I just saw across the landscape that companies were too risk adverse. They, they weren't adopting automation the way they could. They had these legacy infrastructures or cultures that were holding them back. And we both thought that we could go industry by industry and really take a first principles, the latest technology with the latest best practices, ignore what had been done previously, just think of the problem, how it would be solved today, and build a company for that. We, we felt like that was a great way to start a portfolio.

Grant Freking: (20:07)
So what were the early days like? Were you back in your, um, you know, res I guess collectively maybe mom's basement again? Or how, what was, how was, like, how did Quickly did, were you guys able to scale? How did that happen?

Phil Santoro: (20:18)
Yeah, so we left in 2016 to start Wilbur Labs. We worked on my couch for the first five months. So

Grant Freking: (20:25)
Traded, traded up a

Phil Santoro: (20:26)
Little bit. Yeah, exactly. Traded the basement for a, for an apartment. And, you know, we, we tried to take this process that normally is like bottling lightning is what I call it. That's what entrepreneurs deal with, is they, they try to bottle lightning and get this idea and bring it to market and hope that people want it. There's a, a lot of luck with that process. We wanted to build a systematized, repeatable process where we generate ideas, we research them, we hire people, we go to market, we launch a company, and we're building expertise along that full end to end journey. Um, and to give you one example, vacation renter. So Vacation Renter was one of our earlier companies. We were a small company at the time. And so we would take these offsites just to get away, you know, change of scenery from the city, and we would work in these apar uh, these vacation rentals or hotels with our team. And David and I were the ones booking them. And we just realized what a nightmare it was to book travel. I mean, literally you'd have 50 tabs open Airbnb and Booking and VRBO and hotels.com, and then all the apps on your phone, and you'd have so many tabs open, your computer would start to heat up and the fan would spin like a jet engine. Yep.

Grant Freking: (21:44)
I can, I can relate to that.

Phil Santoro: (21:45)
Yeah. And we thought, this is awful. Why don't we just aggregate everything together, all the hotels, all the rentals in one place. We launched a vacation renter, and it went on to be the fastest growing travel startup ever to reach a billion dollars in gross bookings. And so clearly we were not the only ones that had that problem. And we went on to take that same approach to other industries as well. We have a job list, which is a job search engine. Bark Bus is monetizing health, uh, pet care, largest mobile dog grooming company in the country. So we look for problems that are affecting a lot of people that we feel like we can build a company to solve as simple as possible. You know, going back to my earlier learnings with Free Forums mm-hmm . And, and we look to do that in as many industries as possible.

Grant Freking: (22:34)
Sure. Now, I'm sure you guys have, and back, even back then, when you founded over labs a a decade ago at competition in the sort of what you call, you know, systemized ideas, what sort of, what set you apart in your mind from the competition?

Phil Santoro: (22:49)
Yeah. When it comes to competition, we, we don't think that we have competition in the typical sense because our competition is really anyone who builds a business. So whether it's, you know, a bootstrapper, someone getting VC funding, private equity, I mean, there any, any business out there could be competitive for us. But all of our ideas are sourced internally. We have a, a r and d team internally that is coming up with ideas. We then do the research and diligence ourselves. We hire management teams to come in and help do the research and lead the company. And so we don't really compete with anyone necessarily. What we're competing for are good ideas for businesses. And so that is anyone who's making a business.

Grant Freking: (23:37)
How have the goals of Wilbur Labs changed since you founded the company, if they have at all?

Phil Santoro: (23:43)
I would say the goals are the same. We, we look to turn bold ideas into market leading companies. The tactics have changed a bit, especially with AI the last few years. We're thinking more and more towards being able to create leaner companies. Instead of having to spend one to two years building a company, people are able to get something out to market in three to six months. And so that speed, because it's happening from other companies, you know, we're looking to bring that in-house and get to market with the same speed.

Grant Freking: (24:16)
Does that make your job more stressful?

Phil Santoro: (24:19)
I'd say it's, it's different. It, it, it is both most the most exciting time to build a company ever, just given the opportunities out there. And also the most, um, I'd say the most stressful because you feel like the stakes are higher.

Grant Freking: (24:35)
Yeah. What prepared you for being an employer now that you have your company has grown to the, to the fact that you're a boss of many people now. How, what was, what's that journey been like for you?

Phil Santoro: (24:48)
Yeah, I think sort of working backwards. You know, people want to work at a company that's doing well, that is making an impact beyond just the paycheck, which is very important. But they want to make sure they're doing something. And so one of the principles we've tried to believe from the beginning is to solve real problems. And that's easier said than done. I think there's a lot of very smart people, especially in the Valley, who are building very complicated solutions to problems that nobody really cares about. And it's, it's very easy and tempting to get into that, um, because it's really about the building and, and you, you sort of have this vision for the future, and you want to build to that. And then at the end of the day, nobody cares. And so one of the things we've tried to do from the beginning is just solve real problems. Have our teams work on things that are actually impactful. They can see their work, they can see the impact they're having on others, whether it's dogs getting groomed more fairly, uh, so they don't have to be locked in cages at the, at the groomer, or whether it's helping people find a vacation rental for their family reunion. Being able to just work on cool things that are impactful. It really goes a long ways.

Grant Freking: (26:06)
So it sounds like the entrepreneurship pitch is still being scratched you in this job.

Phil Santoro: (26:10)
Very much so. Every every day is different. That's

Grant Freking: (26:12)
Great. Talk to me about giving back and where this sort of mindset, um, entered your, if it's, maybe it's always been there, um, maybe if it's something recent, but you know, you have some scholarship and, and giving that you do with your alma mater, your various alma mater mad and, you know, Lindner College of Business. So what's the story behind that?

Phil Santoro: (26:34)
So when I first started, I was, I was very young, and so got to see the sacrifices required to start a business. And then the further sacrifice is required to be a student entrepreneur. And so I, I think there's really three, three things I think about. One is entrepreneurship is critical. It's critical for our country. It's critical for the world. I mean, America was built by entrepreneurs. The, the products we use, the services, the jobs that are created, the economic empowerment that comes by people being able to lift themselves up by starting a business that is very powerful, and that's not going away anytime soon. Number two is, it is very challenging to start a, a business when you're young. And I would even say the system pushes against you in a lot of ways. And I don't think we'll necessarily change the system. And so we have to do what we can to help young entrepreneurs push through that.

Phil Santoro: (27:33)
And then the third thing is, I've just seen over the years starting so many companies that the younger you start getting into entrepreneurship, the better. Lots of reasons for that. But, and, and you might not even succeed the first time, but you will get so many lessons, so many learnings that you can then take to your second business when you launch that second company. And so starting earlier is almost always better. So for that reason, I started the Santoro Entrepreneurship Scholarship at Madeira High School in 2018. The entrepreneurship teacher there, Jennifer Jordan is incredible. She has this entrepreneurship class. It, it's always full and people have a, a, there's a wait list for it. There's competitions and, and it is incredible. And so I started giving a scholarship to high school students that are operating a business. And one surprising thing I saw with that, which I wasn't expecting, is that the number of student created businesses increased after my scholarship came online.

Phil Santoro: (28:31)
And it wasn't just because people wanted the money, that was certainly something, but people were just aware for the first time that, Hey, I can start a business in high school. Not only can I, but other students are doing it. And that really empowered students to build businesses. Then I brought that mission to uc and Lindner in 2023 with this inro Family Fund for entrepreneurship, helping student run businesses and funding a pitch competition. And then my wife and I now are researching what it would look like to start a private foundation to bring that scholarship nationally. And so I'd say the goals of all of this is help student entrepreneurs, but also increase awareness that, hey, you don't, you don't need to wait until after you graduate to start a business. You know, this might be your life calling and you can start it while you're in school.

Grant Freking: (29:22)
When you meet, uh, young entrepreneurs, whether they're at Madeira, Lindner or elsewhere around the country these days, what are some of the attributes that kind of come to mind? Do you, when you look at them, do you see a lot of yourself in them, or do you see different, is it a mix? I'm, I'm curious about that.

Phil Santoro: (29:37)
I think one of the great things about entrepreneurship is there isn't a single path. There are so many roads into entrepreneurship. I mean, pro the, a number of combinations. So you definitely don't have to go through a single path. I think the curiosity, sort of willing to take calculated risk. I don't consider myself a risk taker. I think that I take calculated risk and are able to sort of think through different outcomes. But there is some degree of calculated risk that you have to take. But really just a curiosity, desire to learn plus, you know, the ability to do something that isn't easy. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Um, that, that's really what sets young entrepreneurs apart.

Grant Freking: (30:23)
Does the calculated risk play a role in you being a licensed private pilot?

Phil Santoro: (30:27)
It, it does. I've, I've tried to be a lifelong learner, and this was a childhood dream. There's something about being thousands of feet up in the air on top of the world in full control with the freedom that is very hard to articulate just how cool that is. And, and I actually was able to bring some of the aviation learnings to Wilbur Labs, really, and, and aviation. We use checklists and risk risk management as a way to compensate for human error because human errors are fatal in, in aviation, in business not so much. And so a lot of our companies have embraced checklists, which we use for repeated work. So anytime you have something that you need to do more than once, we make a checklist for it. And whoever's doing it goes through the checklist, just like a pilot up at 40,000 feet. And that's made a pretty big difference for our companies.

Grant Freking: (31:21)
Was on your own personal checklist, where did, um, holding a Guinness World record for a fastest time to eat a jam donut with no hands come in .

Phil Santoro: (31:30)
This was another, this was another childhood dream. One of my favorite achievements, uh, I actually as a kid was reading these Guinness World record books. Oh, yeah. Flipping through it. Oh yeah.

Grant Freking: (31:42)
I we're, I'm, we're in the same wavelength here. Did the same

Phil Santoro: (31:44)
Thing, yep. Looking at all the weird things people were doing, . And I said, I have to be in there. Yeah. And I wasn't picky. I couldn't add three feet of height and become the world's tallest man. I had to pick what I could actually beat. And it turns out competitive eating is a unique mix of physical and mental ability, but it's more mental, which, which I enjoy. And so I, I actually tried to beat a world record at uc, fastest time to eat a onion. I failed. I could not get past this onion. Uh, and then, so finally in 2014, decided to try donuts, ate 22 donuts in one week, practicing getting the technique down. beat the world record for fastest time to eat a jelly donut with no hands, 11.4 seconds. And the hilarious thing is that every year there's a national donut day.

Phil Santoro: (32:35)
I don't know if you celebrate June 5th, um, you should add it to your calendar for next. I need to. Yeah. And so every every year national donut date comes across and my record goes viral every few years. And it's been picked up by, um, Newsweek, Yahoo SFGate, business Insider. I was in page 86 of the Guinness World Record 2016 book. And then also in this book called The Mammoth Book of Weird World Records. And the funny thing was, we're launching Wilbur Labs while all of this is going on, and we're trying to get some press for our company launches. And journalists not that interested. There's just, there's a lot of companies that are, are going, uh, and launching. Um, and so on the same point, these same journalists are covering my, my donut record. And, and I'm like, really? Like , but hey, every, everyone loves donuts

Grant Freking: (33:29)
And the marketing that comes along with it, apparently for a new company. Yep. That's right.

Phil Santoro: (33:33)
No matter how many companies I start, people just want to talk about donuts.

Grant Freking: (33:37)
, have you, have you, have you attempted to beat the record anytime lately?

Phil Santoro: (33:40)
I have not, but I, I would, I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. And people ask me all the time, are people trying to beat this? And I say, of course they are. You know, it's, there's only, you can't come up with your own record. It's only the records in the book. Mm. And so there's only 40 or 50 food related records. This is one of them. So I think, uh, I think you should try it. Try it one day.

Grant Freking: (34:02)
Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'll have to . Maybe we can find one of those books and find a record that I can go through. I don't know. Yeah, I definitely don't, couldn't do onions. That's, I don't, yeah, that sounds really tough. Let's make that great transition from, from donuts to closing advice. Um, there are students to listen to this podcast. And I'm curious about, you know, a couple of points that you maybe wanna leave anyone who's made it to the end of this podcast with about, you know, if they're thinking about entrepreneurship, if they're having trouble making that last clearance over that hurdle to like actually wanna start their company. They had the idea. What are some, from your own personal experience, both with starting a company and just being in the business for a while now, you're handful of bits of advice to leave with, you know, current students or maybe even recent graduates with?

Phil Santoro: (34:43)
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I wish I had in college was, um, a different perspective on risk and being open to taking more risk. I think I, I objectively took risk, but I think everyone always overstates the risk in their own life. Whether it's starting a company or applying for a job or following up twice because you didn't hear back from someone there. There's a million different risks that, that go on in your life. And for me, what's been helpful later in life is to actually think through what are the downsides if I do this and it actually doesn't happen, or it goes terribly. Um, and it's usually not as bad as you think. And we did a study on why startups fail. We surveyed 300 founders. We did a meta-analysis of all the literature out there on failure. We then combine that with our knowledge and we publish this report on why startups fail. It's been cited in a few different books so far. And one of the things that surprised me is that of the entrepreneurs that experienced failure, 84% said they would do it again. 84% would start another company after going through the worst thing imaginable. And you have to ask yourself if that many people are able to do it again. It's actually not that bad to fail. And I think that applies to everything, not just startups, because

Grant Freking: (36:10)
It what it teaches you about yourself, both personally and I guess professionally

Phil Santoro: (36:13)
Too. Yep. Absolutely.

Grant Freking: (36:15)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:00)
Hey, Bearcats, it's Mirsayah Wasnuk and I'm a student here at the Lindner College of Business, and I'm also the president of Net Impact UC Consulting. Welcome back to Sustainability in Business, a Bearcats Mean Business Student Series, a new series exploring key topics in sustainability and how you can apply them to your future career goals in business. Today my guest is Braden Trauth.

Braden Trauth: (00:21)
Hello,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:22)
Braden. Could you introduce yourself and, um, what you do here at uc?

Braden Trauth: (00:27)
Yeah, I'm an assistant professor of industrial design, um, and I have spent about 25 years delving into sustainability from product design and that perspective and trying to understand what sustainability is, and eventually sort of explored a lot of different aspects of sustainability and eventually came back to product design after I had seen some successful endeavors within it, working with some former students and such. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (00:52)
Yeah. When did, what, what is your definition of sustainability and when did you find out that that was something that you wanted to explore and make your lifelong career?

Braden Trauth: (01:01)
So, I actually started out as a, in car design. That was sort of my big dream since I was nine years old. And one of my professors here at uc started telling me about sustainable product design. And, you know, just with my upbringing, which was also very religious, was, you know, a big interest in trying to understand how to really have a, a larger impact. And, you know, designing cars is great, but also as he started to explain to me about sustainability, I was like, oh, this is something that's not going away. As, you know, humans have become more successful on the planet. We're gonna need to figure out how to really live with the planet. So, you know, in terms of resources, in terms of population growth and all that. And so really started my journey when I was an undergrad here at dap, uh, or here at uc at dap, and went on my journey trying to understand it, working at places like the New England Aquarium up in Boston, designing exhibits to educate people about their impacts on the oceans when they go and make purchases at places like Home Depot. And so, um, then eventually I found my way out to building fully sustainable off-grid homes, um, which really sort of brought it fully together. Uh, and then I found my way to permaculture, and that really brought everything together. It brought in aspects of, um, energy theory and ecology. And once I understood those bigger pictures, I was like, oh, okay, this is, you know, this is sort of what we need to do and where we need to go. And so

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (02:36)
How did, um, you know, ex like getting experience in all those different areas of sustainability, um, affect your worldview of it?

Braden Trauth: (02:44)
It really, I mean, you know, we're all living organisms and we sort of spawned out of this earth and we just have more capacity than a lot of other living organisms. And so once I started to understand sustainability, it really gave me a perspective of just looking at sort of this historical aspect of humans on earth. And one of the, I think most inspiring things about our time right now and other cultures figured this out, but you know, and not all the cultures figured it out, was how to live on planet earth and enhance it and make it better for all living beings. And, um, you know, once I understood those elements, it was like, oh, okay, this is what we're doing and this is where we need to go. And, you know, understanding how, basically how nature has done it for 2 billion years successfully and has evolved and, you know, suffered setbacks, you know, and the dinosaurs went extinct, it eventually rebounded, you know mm-hmm .

Braden Trauth: (03:48)
And different organisms succeeded and other ones didn't, you know, but, but, and that's the way that nature tends to work. But then to bring it all the way down to our daily lives, um, you know, is really the challenge. And that's, you know, that's what brought me back into academia, um, years ago, was really trying to understand. Um, I was actually working down in Haiti, way out in the mountains working with peasant farmers as these gentlemen, as these folks called themselves and watching women wash clothes in the river. And at that point I realized the value of a well-designed washing machine and what it lends in terms of the opportunity, not just ecologically, but also societally as well, and the fact that we can just throw our clothes into a washing machine, press a button, walk away, come back, throw it in the dryer, press a button, walk away, gives us all this free time to then go and do other things like science medicine.

Braden Trauth: (04:49)
And with that, it really helped me understand, number one, there's advances of medicine. I mean, working out in the mountains of Haiti, I, you know, I was working with a medical crew actually. And, and, um, one of the gentlemen came in and his hand was cut open. And it was one of those things where they, the doctors were like, you need to go to a hospital and you realize the value of medicine, you realize the value of science, you realize the value of all these different aspects, but then also, you know, things that we take for granted here. And, um, and so that's what brought me back was realizing like, well, if we could design a good washing machine that, you know, and when the women are washing their clothes in the river, it, it was this beautiful mountain stream up in the mountains, fresh water, you can almost drink right outta the mountain, but once you started to wash your clothes in it, it polluted it for everyone else. So how do you design a washing machine that takes that water, filters it, you know, brings it back in, makes it reusable again, and then also respects the limitations of materials of energy on earth? And so those are some of the bigger aspects. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (05:59)
Yeah. I kinda wanna pull, um, on a string a little bit Yeah. From something you mentioned earlier. Yeah. You said that you built almost like a tiny home that was completely off grid. Could you tell us a little bit more about what made you do that? Um, I know that there's a lot of students here I've had conversations with that are super interested in possibly like, creating those and selling those. Yeah. Um, but I'd love to hear about it. Yeah,

Braden Trauth: (06:19)
It, it, so I, I found out about them at DAP actually, and it turned out that this gentleman, he graduated from DAP in architecture in 1969, went out to New Mexico and started experimenting with sustainable building, which was popular. Then we were dealing with, uh, an energy crunch through the seventies. And because of that, a lot of people were trying to find solutions. And he living in Taos, New Mexico, it actually has the oldest continuously inhabited building in the Americas, which is the Taos Pueblo. And it's in contention with the Acoma Pueblo, the other, another tribe further south. But people have lived in that building for almost a thousand years, and the building has taken care of them. It's given them warmth in the winter. Cool. In the summer they have access to food and water. And so you could see where you pulled that inspiration and the homes that he was working on, eventually he called 'em Earthships and they were made of tires, cans, and bottles.

Braden Trauth: (07:17)
So taking waste materials that no one wants or has much value, especially back in the seventies and eighties and, um, before recycling was even that significantly lo as big as it is now. But the homes captured the sun to heat the home, uh, captured cool from the ground to cool the home, just like if you're in a basement on a hot summer day, um, it captures solar, electric through solar panels, and then it harvests rain water from the sky, and they only get eight inches of rain a year out there. And they recycle that water four times. And he's, uh, come back to speak at DAP several times. They actually built one in the early nineties right next to DAP before they built the big edition, the Aronoff edition, which is the big pastel colored aspect of dap. But he, um, he actually, was it last year or two years ago, uh, good Morning America broadcast their Earth Day show from the community that he built, that I used to live in.

Braden Trauth: (08:17)
Wow. And when I worked out there, there were a lot of dap alums, a lot of architectural alums, and a lot of them owned their homes outright. They had almost no energy bills, almost no water bills. Um, and they could grow food off their wastewater as well. And, um, and it's really impressive. I have friends who've built them and, you know, especially dealing with the housing challenges that we're dealing with right now, it lends itself to an opportunity possibly to try to solve the challenges of it. And that's what Mike really was going for. And when I lived in mine, it was very comfortable. I owned it for two years. I learned a lot about sustainable building at that point, and really laid a foundation for me, understanding sort of bigger picture ideas of, of the possibility of sustainability. So

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (09:09)
That's great. Yeah. Um, do you have any, uh, like I would say advice for students here at Lindner College of Business on how they could think about, you know, topics related to sustainability or topics related to design whenever they go into their careers? Like you seem to have a very interesting perspective and a way of seeing things. Um, do you have any advice for, for them?

Braden Trauth: (09:31)
I mean, I think w with the world that, you know, we're, as the world evolves, you know, as we go out into the world and, you know, graduate from school, my take is is that you guys will have to deal with these challenges more and more, coming up with different ideas to deal with different problems. And that's what every generation has had to deal with at different times. Um, that's what gave us all these advancements. And I think that, you know, as long as you stay open creative, I always say too, look to nature. 'cause nature has worked for 2 billion years and we evolved from it. We eat food from it, we excrete things back to it, our bodies decompose and go back to it. Um, and how it's managed to pull that off, you know, through, you know, major extinction events and, you know, it still rebounds and it, it's through that evolutionary process, which humans do have.

Braden Trauth: (10:27)
You know, every time we come up with new science and medicine and business ideas, those are all responding to the world of opportunities that exist around us. And through good creativity, we can understand how to come up with those solutions really to solve people's problems. And the planet's challenges too. And those two aspects, you know, are really fundamental to sustainability is, is always looking back to people and looking back to the earth as well. You know, because we're a part of it. And if we understand those cyclical aspects of it, then we can really understand how to build sustainable businesses, how to build successful businesses that really fulfill people's needs. And to me, that's really just fundamental. And I think people who are able to do that will build the new economies in the future. And I mean, I watch the computer economy come about, come about, and it shifted a lot of things.

Braden Trauth: (11:28)
It shifted. I mean, really prior to that, the Midwest was, I've heard some DAP alums who have worked for big tech companies who were VPs of, you know, tech companies that we use every day. And they're like, we were in the si, Ohio was the Silicon Valley, you know, of the 19th century of the 20th century, sorry. And Silicon Valley sort of took a lot of that through computers. But, you know, if we keep an open mind and creative that we can really find those next opportunities and build out the next economy, which is exactly what happened with Silicon Valley over time, you know, they, they saw opportunities, they dreamed up opportunities, they figured out how to execute it through science research, problem solving, engineering, you know, you, you name it. And over time it, it worked, you know? So now we get to enjoy the benefits of technology, which can also help us with sustainability as well. So

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (12:29)
I'm sure like in your experiences, you've had to convince people of, you know, investment, um, whatever teams you're working on, um, you might have had to be like, Hey, like we need to invest this amount of money and we won't see return for maybe a long period of time, but the return that we'll receive at the end is we'll outnumber anything that we, we spend now. And so do you have any advice for students trying to articulate ROI, um, you know, in whatever teams they go into? Um, yeah.

Braden Trauth: (12:58)
I mean, ROI in general is what nature does. . It takes a seed. It, you know, falls in the ground or maybe it's buried by a squirrel, been watching squirrels bury 'em all fall, . And you think about, I watch oak trees come up in the coming years, and it's really interesting to just watch those squirrels planting their great, great grandkids food knowingly and unknowingly , you know, they're, they're planting for the fall. They're, they're burying the food for themselves and then they forget about it. And then what happens? You get more oak trees that produce lots of, lots more acorns and that feed squirrels for generations to come. And that's the way that nature works, is ROI return on investment. And it wouldn't work without that. If this, if it took more energy for the squirrel to plant that food source, if you will, it wouldn't survive.

Braden Trauth: (13:56)
And that is fundamental to nature. And there's what really helped me understand sustainability was understanding a lot of energy theory. Um, and there's something called energy return on energy invested. And once I understood that that piece, it really helped me understand new opportunities. And, you know, in, in the oil industry, in the oil era, um, when, if you've ever watched the movie or the TV show the Beverly Hillbillies, there's a scene in the opening scene where Jed Clampett shoots the ground and oil starts bubbling up. They're down somewhere in Texas and they make a ton of money 'cause it's easy to get that oil out of the ground. Now oil's more challenging. And the oil industry started here in Ohio. It started with, um, standard oil up in northern Ohio and with the Rockefellers, and actually our daughter goes to school right up on Clifton Avenue, which I found out the gentleman who owned that, the estate before that school was built, he worked with Rockefeller and he was in charge of standard oil and in, I believe, Kentucky.

Braden Trauth: (15:02)
Um, but they were the richest people in the world that Rockefellers and, you know, from that era. But that was because oil was very easy to get out of the ground. And it pro gave us a lot of resources. It gave us a lot of ability to produce a lot of things and power a lot of things, including airplanes, automobiles, you know, factories, all that. And back then, when Judd clamp had shot the ground, it would take about one gallon of gasoline to get 200 gallons of gasoline or oil out of the ground. That number has since dropped. The oil fields here in here in Ohio have mostly started to dry up fracked oils still a big, big aspect of our economy, which came back in the last 15 years. Um, but after that, you know, the, the oil wells have, they do run dry.

Braden Trauth: (15:51)
And so how do we take this wealth and invest it into our future and our children's future and our great great, great great grandchildren's future. And there's a, a old Native American saying, and there's actually a wonderful company called Seventh Generation, um, that Unilever, I believe bought and I believe Unilever's, CEO is actually a, a uc business college alum. And he, uh, as far as I know, I think he turned them into a B corporation, which is a whole nother topic. But, um, but seventh Generation gets its name from this Native American philosophy that you do stuff for the, that you never do anything that would hurt the next seven generations and how they would survive. And so that's, you know, a really important philosophy. I was raised with very conservative values in my family. And, and, you know, out of those perspectives I was able to, you know, me and me and my brother had talked to my dad about these ideas and you know, they have solar panels on their house. They have an electric car. 'cause it just made financial sense, it made rational sense in the future. And so how do we take this great wealth and sort of invest it into the future? And that's the business opportunity that really exists all around, um, in a free market system. So, you know,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (17:16)
That was a great answer

Braden Trauth: (17:19)
And I could talk more about E-R-O-E-I. It, it's, it's one of those things that when we built those homes, you know, they would capture the sunlight and the sun. The wonderful thing is the sun is free , it keeps shining every day. And so it would capture that sunlight and heat our homes through the winter. And it was colder than Cincinnati for sure. It was probably as cold as Michigan, um, where we were in New Mexico, which always surprises people 'cause they think of hot deserts. But we were at 8,000 feet in the desert and um, you know, it was free heating, which was wonderful. And then we also had the solar panels, so that was free electricity. Now granted we had to pay for the solar panels and the batteries and the inverter, but you prorate that out over so many years and it maybe cost me a hundred dollars a year, I think at that time to replace all those things, especially the disposable things, the solar panels lasted quite long.

Braden Trauth: (18:15)
Um, but your batteries would have to be replaced every 10 years and, you know, you might need a new inverter or something like that. But, but through, you know, again, going back to that example of like an oak tree, you know, a little acorn is planted in the ground and produces tens of thousands of kilo calories, you know, over its lifetime from that one little acorn. And once I understood energy theory, and there's a professor out of University of Florida, gentleman named Howard Tedom, who's written books about ecology and energy and trying to really get a full grasp of, um, just energy and how it comes from nature and ecosystems, which, um, it really helps you understand how to solve the problems and through good design, through good business strategies, through, um, recognizing those opportunities is really fundamental. So,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (19:11)
So why, why is business like critical for, you know, fulfilling missions related to, you know, making the world a better place and making more sustainable design? Like how does business fit into that picture?

Braden Trauth: (19:24)
To me, business is the fundamental aspect that keeps the resources flowing. And, you know, it helps us direct, it helps us fulfill our needs. It helps us, um, you know, really scale up strategies and solutions. Um, and you know, you, to me, business is arguably one of the biggest opportunities 'cause you, if you can prove that it's financially successful and you do that through helping people through, you know, fulfilling their needs, um, then you can really, and to me, this is where the biggest opportunity within sustainability lies. Now, sure you have investments and research that do go into new technologies. Um, so many things that we take for granted today were developed out by science researchers at universities, at government agencies. The internet is one of the biggest examples. It was a military asset. The interstate highway also was another one. But once those in, once that infrastructure is developed, it really greases the wheels of business opportunities.

Braden Trauth: (20:42)
And if you look at how the interstate highway system, which was Eisenhower's vision, transitioned us away from railroads, which was a huge employer. My family worked in the, in the railroad industry, you know, my great great ancestors and it employed a lot of people. Um, but as we transitioned to the highway system, the automobile industry started to employ more people. And you look at how large the automobile industry is and how it employs so many countless people that you know, and that's all through business. And out of that we get better livelihoods, we get more comfortable livelihoods. Henry Ford realized that if he paid his workers a living wage, they could all buy his car and therefore he could sell more cars and make more money . So there's something in, in ecosystems called and permaculture design, where basically it's understanding how each element creates niches. So an oak tree creates something called niches, and those niches could be shade underneath the oak tree.

Braden Trauth: (21:47)
They could be food for squirrels, they could be, you know, compost from the leaves. And I think what Henry Ford recognized is that businesses create ecosystems and out of those ecosystems, you create more jobs, more opportunity and more livelihoods for people. And you know, and within permaculture there is this principle that sort of the, the re the niches are endless and the opportunity to design, um, agroforestry systems, for example. Um, within those you get all these different niches which create different opportunities for organisms to live those organisms, if you will, are business opportunities. They're converting resources and turning sunlight, water, minerals, nutrients into food sources, into fiber resources, into energy resources. Um, and that's how nature has always worked. And I think the important thing is to realize is that we discovered this finite resource that's powered our economy for the last 250 years about coal, oil, natural gas, amazing resource.

Braden Trauth: (22:58)
How do we take that and move beyond it? 'cause we know that they do run out. And if, you know, that's why Ohio was one of the world's largest oil producers a hundred years ago, but is not anymore. It's since moved to Oklahoma and then Texas and, um, the Middle East. And so, you know, how do we take these resources and really build out our future and use them really judiciously? 'cause I, I wish the earth would make more of 'em, but it just doesn't. And so when the oil wells run dry, how do we set our great, great, great great grandchildren up for a better livelihood and, you know, taking these resources to build it out? And we, you know, I I always point back to northern Ohio where it all started. So, and actually the fo first oil well was drilled about eight hours northwest of here in, um, northeast of here in northwest Pennsylvania, um, called Drake's Oil Well in 1859.

Braden Trauth: (23:54)
So it's really interesting when you start to learn about energy and, and you know what it's done for us, which is amazing. I mean, I just, I get blown away by what, you know, we can fly halfway around the world in 15 hours now we can talk to people halfway around the world. You go back a hundred fifty two, a hundred and fifty years before this and it would've taken you months sailing on a ship , you know, like, and so how do we keep the progress moving? And that's the big question. And I think, you know, when you lay everything out and lay everything on the table, sustainability inherently has huge opportunities to create that future. And so,

Mirsayah Wasnuk: (24:35)
My thanks to Braden for joining me today on this last episode of Sustainability in Business, a Bearcats Mean Business Student series. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who's ready to take the leap at Lindner. Your feedback helps more Bearcats discover the show. Keep showing the world how Bearcat mean business.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
Welcome back to Bearcats Mean Business. Today's guest is Liwei Chen, an associate professor at Lindner who now doubles as an Amazon bestselling author How Amazing Liwei's co-authored book generative AI for Business Frameworks, techniques and Governance was recently named the number one new release in the business education and reference category on Amazon. Liwei is here to talk about what students really need to know about generative AI from essential skills and responsible use to how AI will affect their careers, classes and more Liwei. Congrats on the book and thank you for joining me.

Liwei Chen: (00:34)
Thank you so much, grant, and very excited to be here today. It is very wonderful to share what we have been learning about generative ai, especially knowing that our students are using these tools every day now. And the book really come out of the needs of our business students. Mm-hmm . And business, um, professionals we are working with. So I think it's really meaningful to talk about it today here.

Grant Freking: (00:56)
Yeah. You put together this project pretty quickly, so I'm excited to kind of dive into it. Um, you know, in the book's preface, you note that the book was born out of common questions that you and your co-author Wei Chen from the University of Connecticut we're hearing from students, um, students at Lindner UC, students at Connecticut, maybe even students that weren't even at those schools. What were those common questions that you started hearing?

Liwei Chen: (01:16)
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, like in our teaching, students often come to us with two big questions. Okay. The first one is, as business students, where should they even start to learn generative ai? Because many of them do not have strong technical background. So, uh, many, but many of them are using generative AI every day, such as chatGPT, Gemini, uh, copilot, et cetera. And they read and heard a lot of news about generative AI every day as well. So they're really eager to learn more about, um, the technologies such as large language models, prompt engineerings, rag and agent ai. They're really eager to understand how, what these concepts mean and how do these tech, um, how do they work. Um, they wanted to learn in a more systematic and structured way. Okay. And the second question they ask, often ask is how do they, um, actually use, sorry, the second question they often ask is, how can they actually use generative AI to solve business problems?

Liwei Chen: (02:20)
Okay. And they often come from different business backgrounds. They want to learn how to use these technologies in the domains they are interested in. Uh, so this covers among many business majors including marketing, finance, accounting, uh, operations management, um, business analytics, et cetera, et cetera. So they want to see how generative AI is used today in different, um, industries and across multiple functional areas in, in their organizations. So when we look around, we notice that there is actually no textbook talking about, um, generative AI to business students and explain it in a more practical and, um, understandable way. Sure. So that's, um, makes us to think maybe, um, we can write one to compliment the existing resources, which are mostly, um, either to technical or to conceptual. Um, so that's how we come up with our book.

Grant Freking: (03:19)
Yeah. It's making sort of the technology kind of applicable and understanding for everyone. Now, once students start using this technology, you know, they come into some responsible use questions. Right. So what are a few ways that students can responsibly use generative AI in their classes?

Liwei Chen: (03:33)
Yeah. Actually we see students using generally AI every week, every day. And I definitely see both use a good use and bad use. Um, so I often offer students with some guidelines, first of all, be mindful that you need to keep, um, privacy and security in, in your mind. Um, do not just paste sensitive data or identifiable data into the public tools. Um, and second, very importantly, they need to use AI as a learning, um, partner instead of a shortcut. So they need to be responsible for any, um, like submissions they work on. They, they can use AI as tools to explain concepts, generate practice questions, or for brainstorming purposes, but they should not use AI to generate the solutions and submit it without their own thinking. Uh, if they use AI in that way, they lose the value of learning.

Grant Freking: (04:35)
Right? Yeah. You, there's the, the shortcut takes you nowhere. You're not, you're not learning anything. And then once you get to the professional setting, you, you're still stuck without the knowledge.

Liwei Chen: (04:43)
Exactly. Exactly.

Grant Freking: (04:45)
Yeah. So what are some of the top generative AI skills that all students need to know to thrive professionally?

Liwei Chen: (04:53)
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, we view there are, uh, four essential skills. I would say. The first one is prompt engineering. So basically you need to know how to communicate with AI, with clear instructions, context, and, um, constraints. And it now has become a basic digital literacy. Um, in the second one, I would say the retrieval augmented generation, which is the re. Um, so that will connect with AI to pro, um, to provide more accurate, um, knowledge resources. So I think that is very crucial in business settings where the accuracy of information is very, very important. And the third skill, I would say, um, the capability to work with AI agents and, um, develop and build agent workflows. Um, this is the new trend that requires people, human agents to collaborate with the AI agents and to accomplish some more complex tasks. Um, and the last skill, I would say is the avail, uh, the ability to evaluate AI generated content because we know that AI could, um, hallucinate and it could generate, um, unexpected results. So human students should be able to evaluate those, um, output generated by AI and, and, uh, detect the hallucinations and make some judgements when the output is problematic.

Grant Freking: (06:19)
You mentioned trends, and we both know that a AI is changing by the minute virtually. Um, and as a generative AI instructor for Lindner students and masters and MBA and graduate certificate programs, you got a wide range there. How do you keep course content current with the constantly shifting landscape?

Liwei Chen: (06:37)
Definitely. That's a, that's a very true question. So I update the course materials continuously. Okay. Um, at least weekly . Wow. Yeah, because this space is evolving so fast, um, and I often, um, organize my information in a very, um, uh, structured way. Um, and even though the, the tools and app applications change the founda, uh, the foundations, the fundamental concepts remain stable. So I try to cover those relatively stable concepts in my lectures. Um, so, so these concepts would not disappear even though the applications might have changed. Um, and I also, I need to test these tools, uh, I use in the classroom before, um, the brief before each class. Um, but some things will happen , um, some updates in the system will make some function, uh, not working for the students. Right. The, the, the next day right after I test it, .

Grant Freking: (07:38)
Right. Yeah. And I imagine your students are who, who are actually very, the most, who are especially quite interested in the subject, are probably making you aware of, okay, this might have changed, you know, to your course material as well.

Liwei Chen: (07:49)
Exactly.

Grant Freking: (07:50)
Helping you out. Yeah. So speaking of those students, do you find that students that you instruct are, you know, once they become, I guess, fully aware or mostly aware of like the power of AI and its capabilities, are they worried about job security or even future job security if they may not be, um, you know, a graduate student who already has a full-time job, if they're, you know, still working toward that full-time job? How worried are they about job security?

Liwei Chen: (08:13)
That's an excellent question, and I definitely see mixed emotions on this, on this aspect. And very interestingly, I observed the emotions change, um, as the course progresses. So it's very natural to see some students are relatively more positive about gen generative ai. Mm-hmm . And others are more cautious. But at the very beginning of the course, many of them are just unsure and they do not know enough, um, to evaluate the impact on their own, uh, future job. But as we learn more, they kind of, usually they're very amidst to see how powerful and capable the generative AI has become. And at that point, that usually, um, spark them to develop some deeper thoughts how this will replace their job, um, and affect their, their work. Um, and later on we talk about some governance challenges, ethical issues. Um, those concerns might be, uh, uh, drawn back a little bit because they, they see the values of human beings to still, um, be included in this process to, um, to manage how to use generative AI and address those, um, potential challenges and issues.

Liwei Chen: (09:27)
Um, usually at the end of the course, my students are still very excited about, um, generative ai, and they're eager to learn more. But I would say that excitement becomes more infor, uh, informed. It's in a, a much more informed way, um, because they have a more comprehensive understanding about both the threats and the opportunities, and they see both the potential and the challenges. So, um, it's mixed . Sure. And they, one important point I want to make, um, for my, uh, for my students to understand is AI is not just replacing human's job. They are, they actually are powerful to augment human capabilities and human can collaborate with AI to achieve better performance.

Grant Freking: (10:13)
It's another way of partnering with, you know. Exactly. And that just an entity. Right, .

Liwei Chen: (10:17)
Exactly. ,

Grant Freking: (10:19)
Let's talk about non-AI skills for a second. What are s in your experience, what are your essential business skills or principles that you sort of consider timeless that are sort of maybe immune to AI disruption?

Liwei Chen: (10:32)
Yeah, that is a very thoughtful question. I have also been asking it myself. Okay. Right. So, um, to me, um, personally, three skills stand out. The first one I think is the critical thinking. I think it is very important to have the ability to ask great questions and have the ability to challenge AI generated solutions. Um, even though AI can generate content, but ultimately it's human who decide what is meaningful and what is responsible, right? And the second skill, I think is communication. Um, even though AI can help generate content, the clear communication still come out from the clear thinking. Um, and I think AI cannot replace human, um, intention and empathy. That is very important. The way we connect with others through our words still matters a lot. And the third skill, I think very important is, uh, the capabil, the ability to understand people and organizations, right? The, this is where the humanity really, um, jumps in. Um, AI cannot build trust and understand human needs, manage relationships, or, uh, navigate the team dynamics. So skills like empathy, listening, caring for others, uh, leadership, I think those are still very valuable skills that cannot be replaced by ai.

Grant Freking: (11:56)
Yeah, I have to agree with all that. So you're, you're saying that we're, we're not in danger of AI running major companies anytime soon, right?

Liwei Chen: (12:02)
?

Grant Freking: (12:03)
Yes. So let's talk future students to sort of wrap up here. If a high school student is listening to this and is sort of yearning to study business collegially, hopefully at the Lindner College of business, what should they know? Like, you know, early stage about generative ai, they're probably using it in their, in their classroom right now, and what makes Lindner a strong place to study this topic?

Liwei Chen: (12:23)
Yeah, I think that's a great question. High school students I think should know that AI is not just for computer scientist. It is, it affects all the majors, all the industries, including our, uh, business majors. So no matter where you are interested in AI will be part of your, uh, future work, right? Um, and the second point I want to make is, uh, keep your curiosity and AI will reward your curiosity. Um, you do not need to have a very strong, um, technical background. You do not need to, um, know programming to start learning. As long as you know, um, how to ask good questions and think clearer, you actually can start exploring generative ai. Um, and the last point I want to make is that as for Lindner, we have built a very strong, um, ecosystem for AI for business. And we offer specialized courses across multiple programs.

Liwei Chen: (13:21)
And we have multiple, um, uh, labs like Applied AI labs, and we have business centers to support the learning. And we offer tons of opportunities to work on real world projects collaborating with companies. So these are great opportunities for the students. They are not just learning the concepts from the textbook. They also put those, put what they learn into practice. Um, so I think the students can get not only the conceptual understanding, but also practical skills, which is super important, um, in today's world. And I think Lindner is a wonderful place to prepare for AI education.

Grant Freking: (14:00)
That's a wrap on today's episode of Bearcats Mean Business. My thanks to Liwei Chen for appearing. And congrats once again to her on her new co-authored book, which is called Generative AI for Business Frameworks, techniques and Governance. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with someone who's ready to take the leap at Lindner. Your feedback helps more Bearcats discover the show. Until next time, keep showing the world how Bearcats mean business.