Bearcats Mean Business podcast

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world. Come together, tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Michael Fisher, it is such a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you for joining us.

Michael Fisher: (00:35)
Good to be with you, Marianne.

Marianne Lewis: (00:38)
I feel like I've had such a personal pleasure getting to learn and grow with your support. And to me, this is a chance to, to share that more broadly. I've appreciated your thought leadership. You are a model of not only leadership, but leadership development, the way you, you take it seriously. You do it with intention, thinking about future leaders as well as your own leadership. And, you know, for those joining us, I, I came to know Michael Fisher as he was going through his a, a later transition after a remarkable stint as, which is probably not the right word, but as CEO of Cincinnati Children's, uh, medical Center and elevating that beautiful institution that we are so proud to have here in Cincinnati to number one in the nation for pediatrics. And I think that that gives me pride for our region and certainly to call you a friend and advisor. So I think today is a chance for us to learn a bit more. The other piece I just wanna note for all those listening is two books that I've come to really value that Michael is showcased in, that were developed by McKinsey Consulting. The first was CEO Excellence, which is very much about the mindsets of great leaders. And the more recent is called A CEO for all seasons. Um, both are valued resources. And so I wanna thank you for those opportunities to learn from you and again, for being here today.

Michael Fisher: (02:12)
Well, Marianne, thank you a, for your friendship, uh, b for that, uh, ridiculously generous introduction. I really do appreciate it, as you might imagine. It was, it was and continues to have been an extraordinary privilege, uh, to be the CEO of Cincinnati Children's, uh, the Children's Hospital and Research Center in my hometown. Uh, so that is, uh, particularly meaningful to me. And, uh, you know, your, uh, generous intro, uh, coming from the Dean of the Business School and somebody I've, uh, uh, come to grow and admire quite a bit, means a lot. So, I look forward to visiting with you. I look forward to, uh, connecting with our audience here today.

Marianne Lewis: (02:48)
Well, I, let's do, and I think a, a nice place to start is about learning how to lead. It's a steep learning curve, Michael. I mean, you and I certainly both know that. And you think about that from my experiences with you, again, with intention, with purpose. How have you learned to climb that learning curve, uh, of, for leadership and maybe a particular example? I'd be very interested in you sharing a bit more of how you prepared and learned as you stepped into the role of CEO at Children's.

Michael Fisher: (03:22)
Uh, you know, learning's a lifelong journey and learning to lead, I think is something we can do with intention. Um, and, uh, you know, one of the great opportunities I had early in my career, uh, was to be a supplier to the Toyota Motor Corporation. And one of their principles of leadership and learning is to go to the gemba, to go to the site and, uh, really learn from the customer, really learn from the frontline, uh, service providers, uh, employees, et cetera. And so that lesson that I learned early in my entrepreneurial career with Premier Manufacturing support service has extended throughout my time as one of the best ways I've learned about an industry or a business or a culture. And then learned to lead within it. So, uh, in the Cincinnati Children's con context, uh, to be able to do that routinely and go to all of our clinical locations and interact with patients and families, and understand what matters to them, to hear from our, our employees, what's working, what's not, what's getting in their way of giving great care.

Michael Fisher: (04:33)
So that whole spirit of going to the gemba, I think has really informed my leadership. And then I think to the specific question around preparing, and maybe by way of context for our folks listening, Marianne mm-hmm . Uh, you know, I, I did an entrepreneurial stint, uh, in the auto industry. I had worked in college athletics, I worked in civic leadership. I worked with the private equity firm, and I really didn't grow up steeped in the world of healthcare, the world of research, uh, or the world of pediatrics. And so I did have the really a gift and privilege to serve on the board of trustees of Cincinnati Children's. And as I was exposed to that, and I said, this is just an extraordinary mission with great people serving the children of our community in the world, wouldn't it be really cool if I was ever given the opportunity to do that?

Michael Fisher: (05:29)
So, uh, to lead it. And so, uh, when my predecessor, one of my many mentors, Jim Anderson, announced he was stepping down, uh, from the CEO role, I thought, well, how do I prepare for this? So, of course, I had a bit as a, as a board member, I took advantage of going to every opportunity to interact with patients and families, the research committee, uh, all of the events. I was given the opportunity to chair a couple of committees, which have sunsetted, but one was in the technology area. Wow. One was in legal affairs, things I really didn't know a heck of a lot about. But it was a great way to learn and to stretch myself and to learn from experts. Uh, and then when I said, okay, you know, could I possibly be qualified for this? And, you know, one of the global search firms was leading the search for that, uh, CEO role back in 2009.

Michael Fisher: (06:21)
And I said, I gotta really prepare. So I did a lot of reading, I did a lot of talking and listening. Um, but in particular, I did two things that I thought really helped me, maybe three that helped me prepare for that role. Uh, one was I had a friend, uh, who happened to be in the executive search industry, a woman who is still here in Cincinnati, Lynn Mayfield. And I said, Lynn, help me prepare for a formal search committee process. And she was terrific in that regard. Awesome. The second thing I did was I had a college buddy who was a pediatric ophthalmologist at Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis. I called him and he said, are you outta your mind? I have no idea if you're qualified or capable to do this, but I do know someone who does. And that is our CEO, Dr.

Michael Fisher: (07:05)
Aura Pescovitz. And Aura was, uh, leading Riley Children's. She went on to subsequently lead the University of Michigan's Health system, and, uh, was an NIH funded researcher, and she now happens to be president of Oakland University. And I drove over to Indianapolis, spent an hour plus with Ora, who I did not know. And when I finished visiting with her, she said, Michael, you should do this. You can do this. And our field needs people like you who bring your experience set, but also your heart and and temperament. And so those two things I think really helped prepare me mm-hmm . Um, and then, uh, finally I really thought about how do I connect the dots of an eclectic career to sit with a search committee that, in addition to trustees, had some luminary faculty on the search committee. And so I really worked hard to prepare for that. And then maybe the final thing I'll say on it, um, is, and then when I got started, um, I asked those faculty members who were on the search committee to be my guides, to be my sherpa, to be my hold the mirror up, teach me, but also tell me when I was stepping in it.

Marianne Lewis: (08:13)
Oh, Michael. I mean, that is a masterclass on preparation. Thank you. And, and because I love, and I'm the going to the gemba, I mean, really getting close to the people in the field, the various stakeholders, but also going to people who are already in the arena as a Brene Brown would say. Yeah. Right. Who, who know that world. I think it's, I I take personally away a couple of pieces of that. I mean, one is that you were certainly building your knowledge. You were building a much more realistic job preview. And I think the third is your confidence, because you, you have had a very eclectic career. And I could also imagine going through some of that preparation, saying, uh, maybe not, but it did the opposite.

Michael Fisher: (08:58)
Well, yes and no. I mean, so one of my, uh, my own, uh, parts of my journey, , is to continue to grow in learning and my confidence. And I would say yes, I prepared well to go through the search process, which was a bit exhausting. Mm-hmm . And I, you know, then hit the ground in a very intense, large, complex organization, uh, that had all kinds of, uh, opportunities, but all kinds of challenges. And so, you know, I think early days, uh, you know, I think there were some things where I felt like I had a decent clue as to what I was doing, but there was a lot of, a lot of things that we worked on, a lot of situations that came up where I really didn't mm-hmm . And so I think, you know, one of my teachings as a kid was, uh, ones who will know that to know themselves, uh, is the foundation stone of all true knowledge. And I think knowing what I didn't know was something my dad taught me, uh, that I've always worked on, it really helped me. And then maybe to this confidence point, um, look, I think I was a, uh, a better CEO in my final quarter than I was in my first quarter. You know, you learn, you grow, you have some mistakes mm-hmm . Uh, you, you build some credibility, you put some deposits in the bank. You do, uh, all those things.

Marianne Lewis: (10:18)
I, I, I appreciate the, the double, you know, the two-sided coin of, of that confidence and humility as you're, you're working through to learn. And it reminds me of what I think is probably my favorite Warren Bennis quote, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest challenges, we find our best selves, what we're capable of, what we can lean into. I wonder in, in looking at your career, if you might identify a particular crucible moment that was really powerful in that journey and helping, you know Yeah. Your strengths and how to lean into them.

Michael Fisher: (10:57)
Yeah. I'm gonna take two if I could, because mm-hmm . As somebody who I'm sitting across from, um, I think is the master of both and thinking. And, uh, when you talked about humility, uh, and confidence mm-hmm . I mean, I think we'll come back to that maybe in the conversation, because I do think, uh, in today's world, leaders need to have a lot of that both. And, um, but if I go to your question around, uh, crises, crucibles mm-hmm . Uh, two come to mind, you know, one is, um, uh, I would say, uh, in my days leading the Cincinnati, uh, chamber of Commerce mm-hmm . The Cincinnati Regional Chamber of Commerce, and I had been a private company entrepreneur, never been in the public spotlight at all. And, uh, within the first few months of, uh, me having the opportunity to lead our Chamber of Commerce, a 5,000 plus member organization, um, including the large companies like Proctor and Gamble, Kroger, ge, et cetera, um, we had what, uh, uh, some of the time might have called civil disturbances, but the reality was they were race riots.

Michael Fisher: (12:00)
Right. And, uh, the crucible moment I remember really clearly, it was sitting with the mayor, um, the senior business community, et cetera, and the city was, you know, on CNN, it was in national news. It was a really tough moment in Cincinnati. And, uh, uh, several of the senior business leaders, CEOs turned to me. I was 41 years old at the time. Uh, and they were really at a loss as to what to do. And I kind of had to dig deep in this moment, kind of put on the spot and kind of say, look, I think there's some real underlying issues here that we as a business community, we as a civic community have to get after. We can't just kind of gloss over this. And, you know, that ultimately with the leadership of people like Tom Cody and Ross Love and the mayor, uh, led to things like the police community collaborative, the minority business accelerator three CDC success by six, some things that started to get some of the root causes of inequity and frustration in our city.

Michael Fisher: (13:01)
But the crucible thing for me was to say, when I was put on the spot and I spoke up, uh, nervously, so, but then I did it with some conviction. I thought, you know what? I belong in this room and my voice needs to be in this room. And I think that was really important for me to feel that. So that was one, that's a big one. And it was a big one. And, um, and then, um, you know, differently, um, but, uh, maybe even more powerfully for me personally, um, less than a year into my tenure at Cincinnati Children's, um, in an institution that prided itself on quality improvement, prided itself on safety, uh, we had a, a horrific accident, a horrific tragedy, uh, where, um, a medical error of our institution, a system error, ended up causing the death of a little boy.

Michael Fisher: (14:01)
And, uh, I'm gonna share his name because we do have permission to do this, because it's been such an extraordinary thing. A little boy named Tressel minority. And, um, um, it was devastating, obviously devastating for the minority family. Absolutely. Um, and for our whole institution. And, um, I learned a few things there. One is, being a CEO, being a leader, you have certain obligations, responsibilities, et cetera. And of course, the magnitude and weight of my new role in a medical center became palpable to me. Mm-hmm . Obviously very heavy, but also that even in those times, and, you know, always respectful of legal counsel and advice, but sometimes you just gotta be a human being. And, um, I ended up having a, a direct conversation and a deep apology to the minority family. And the grace that that family showed, uh, touches me to this day, um, in an exceptional way.

Michael Fisher: (15:03)
And, and Tressels mom, Emily said, Michael, I really appreciate this. Of course, we'll never get past it, but one thing I want you to try to promise me was that Cincinnati Children's will learn from this to be better and to try to make sure this never happens to another little boy again. And I would say it just caused a tremendous amount of resolve by me personally, but more importantly, our whole team to say, what can we learn from this? How do we improve our systems, our rigor, our discipline? Um, uh, and we've done that incredibly well. We ended up then, um, accelerating the building of a international network of now probably about 150 children's hospitals who shared data, best practices, learnings, stories, so that all of us don't compete on safety. All of us try to make sure that every patient that walks into a children's hospital, every employee who works there can be as safe as possible. So, huge crucible moment for me in terms of learning and the gift of the grace of that family, uh, indelible

Marianne Lewis: (16:11)
And I, I, those are both remarkable. I mean, both at a a personal level and at a systems level, whether it's the system of the hospital or the system of our region. Um, they also just, I mean, something I certainly know of you, Michael, I mean, the ability in, in, in incredibly hard times to take a deep breath Yeah. And think about what matters most, and then lean into that. Yeah. And your strengths.

Michael Fisher: (16:37)
So Marianne, you know, it's, uh, uh, I, I'm, I'm glad you noticed that. 'cause I, you know, uh, as a kid, I used to tense up a lot in pressure situations, particularly like in sports, you know? Mm-hmm . I think I was a good athlete, but I don't know that I ever, uh, achieved my potential as an athlete because I would tense up. And I think what I have found, uh, as an adult and in my growth as a leader, is when the situation gets more difficult, I am able to take a deep breath, keep my calm and equanimity both to help me and the team think through whatever needs to be done. But also I think the appreciation of people are always looking at what leaders do, not just what they say. And so to kind of keep my own, um, levelness my own composure, my own positivity in tough times, I think that, um, it's something I've grown into and matters to the people and the stakeholders you work with.

Marianne Lewis: (17:39)
You know, it reminds me, Michael, I, I have many favorite books, and I know you do too, but Vic Viktor Frankl is, is way up on the top. Yep. Probably three lists. And just that, that, that opportunity, that pause between stimulus and response, we can't control the crises. Right. Maybe we can mitigate them in the future, but they will happen. And it's what do we do in that period that matters so much? Um, thank you for both of those examples. Uh, you know, they, they also link, and thankfully, both of those wallet crises turned out to be powerful and valuable learning opportunities and long-term successes. But as leaders, we all have failures. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, it, one of my favorite, and I think most important questions in search leadership search committees for me, is always tell me about a failure and tell me how you learned, because I think we learn a lot through those. How about you?

Michael Fisher: (18:39)
Well, you know, it's, it's always easier to ask that question than get to answer Mary

Marianne Lewis: (18:42)
Much easier.

Michael Fisher: (18:44)
Um, but, but look, I think, uh, of course we all have failures and continue to, you know mm-hmm . I mean, that's part of growing, that's part of life, et cetera. You know, I think, um, I'll, I'll share one from my youth, and then one that was, that was a bit more thematic in a couple of my, um, leadership roles. But the, the one from my youth is, you know, I, I did grow up here in Cincinnati, went to Walnut Hills High School. I think Mandy in the audience will know that's a mm-hmm. Large urban, uh, uh, diverse high excellence public high school. And, uh, I did very well there. I ended up having the opportunity to go to Stanford University. And in my time at Walnut Hills, I, you know, uh, never got below an A in math, my very first midterm in calculus in college, I literally flunked it, and I was really shaken mm-hmm .

Michael Fisher: (19:36)
And, you know, I wasn't used to failing at anything, and certainly math. And, uh, it was a huge wake up call. And I think, you know, and the fast forward on that was by, at the end of the semester, I ended up pulling out an A and, uh, did fine. But I think the, the learning for me there was twofold. Uh, one was, um, the level of competition, the level of talent goes up as you go up, you know, whether it's in your career path or in bigger, bigger ponds, so to speak. Uh, all of that. And so I think I underappreciated that. And then secondly, which I knew, but I think it was driven home, there is no substitute for hard work. And I was, uh, loving the California lifestyle as an 18-year-old thinking, this is pretty fun. And I think the first month or two I was in school, I had forgotten why I was really in school.

Michael Fisher: (20:30)
Uh, so those were great. And I learned, and thankfully had a good, good ending on that. Good. I think, um, you know, failure in the leadership role, um, you know, I would say without being overly specific, there were several situations in the first, uh, third to half of my time at Cincinnati Children's where there was some really talented leaders, both on the faculty side and in the executive side, that, um, I don't think were consistently honoring the values of the organization. Um, or maybe had gotten a little more focused on themselves and their program as opposed to the broader institution. And, um, and so, uh, in one or two cases, these were people who reported to me, and a couple of other cases they reported to another senior leader. But I knew enough to know that I shouldn't have tolerated it. Mm. And I think it undermined the culture in at points. Uh, and I think it undermined my credibility and effectiveness as a leader. And I, I think I got better at it. I think I did ultimately deal with those things and owned up to it in very public ways, uh, as much as you can without ever mm-hmm . Causing issues for the, you know, in this case, former employees. Um, but, um, but I would say those are two areas that both failures, but learn from failures.

Marianne Lewis: (21:54)
Oh, absolutely. You know, I, in both of those, those cases both, and thinking about crucibles and thinking about failures, yeah. I think there's this, this issue of our emotions are, they signals that pain in your chest when you feel the tensions are rising or you feel, I've let myself down. You, you have a choice to defend, cover or learn. And I think you are leaning toward learn. Learning is a, is a powerful reminder for me. I hope for all those listening, that that's the powerful opportunity. And you've, you've brought others into that learning. Yeah. In the case when you're, you're leading.

Michael Fisher: (22:36)
Yeah. Look, a so thank you. And, and that's part of, I think our responsibility is to, uh, you know, I've benefited from so many mentors and teachers mm-hmm . And I think anytime you can share back or create the space for people to learn on the their own, that's, uh, great. You know, I also would say Marianne, you know, it's, it's, uh, relatively easy to sit here with my friend and have a conversation. And I would say, despite my best efforts to be objective about everything that we've talked about, you know, I'm sure there's a little bit of revisionist history here, but I'll, I'll try to be as, uh, straightforward as I can on it. .

Marianne Lewis: (23:11)
See, it's always easier to live life in reverse, right? Yes. As we go. Um, let's talk a little bit about civic leadership. Yeah. I mean, you, you, you have been, uh, in charge of our beautiful chamber of commerce. You, you, you think about our city often, but I think it's more than that, Michael. And it's something I, I reflect on often myself, but also for our students, for our alumni. Um, recently we had a wonderful opportunity that you hosted us down downtown at your office and over the Ryan, and along with Mel Gravely and Julia Post and other excellent examples of civic leaders Absolutely. Who, who lead and led and continue to lead in their professional lives and for our city. But I think it's the, and that I'd love to, to dig into because you just like Julia and Mel, very busy people, very full professional lives, but also family lives and making the time for our city, for our community is clearly a priority for you. I'd love to hear a little bit more about why, why you make time and space for that. It's,

Michael Fisher: (24:19)
Yeah. Um, there's a lot there. Mm-hmm . As you might imagine. Um, you know, I'd probably start with, um, you know, who am I and how I was raised. Yes. And, um, you know, I'm a proud Cincinnatian. I'm a proud Jew. Mm-hmm . Um, and that comes from a close-knit family. Um, and, uh, this whole notion of, uh, some of your listeners may have heard Ku Lum to repair the world, uh, is really one of the charges that we have, uh, as a member of the Jewish community. And I would argue as a member of humanity, and, you know, my dad used to always say to his four sons, my three brothers, and I, uh, you gotta put something in the pot. You know, somebody's put something in the pot for you. You gotta always put something back in the pot. So I think there was just early days, this notion of that in my life.

Michael Fisher: (25:16)
I think, um, secondly, um, while I was already well on this path, uh, there was a point right as I began at Cincinnati Children's, in the spirit of ongoing learning, learning to be a leader, I took our senior team up to the University of Michigan. We went and benchmarked the children's hospital up there. And then we spent a half day at their business school. And, uh, the course we focused on that day, uh, from a terrific faculty member was called, uh, legacy and Leadership. And, uh, from that endeavor that day, each of us was supposed to think about our legacy. And I know that can sound pretentious at times, but it wasn't intended to be. It was really to think about who am I? What do I, why am I here? What am I trying to achieve? And, uh, I wrote down that day that I wanted to, and this is now 15, 16 years ago, I wanted to enhance my family's good name.

Michael Fisher: (26:10)
I was fortunate to have a good family. And fortunate I wanted to help ensure that Cincinnati Children's is positioned for leadership and impact for the next 25 years and beyond. And I wanted to help make Cincinnati better for everyone. And that has really shaped how I've thought about it. So my doing those things is 'cause it's what I've decided is important to me. And then I think there's an altruistic thing. If I turn the clock back 30, 40 years ago, as a young adult, even as a, with a young family and busy and traveling the world for the entrepreneurial company, I helped lead, um, the altruistic part was growing in my leadership to learn how to learn about another industry, a nonprofit, a uh, a city, um, and, and learn about it. And then try to, uh, lead with influence without authority. 'cause you're a board member or you're a volunteer. So that was incredibly valuable. And then to the Julia and Mel comment mm-hmm . By way of example, the richness of the network. Uh, not just networking, how does it benefit me, but enjoying life, learning from other people. Mm-hmm . Um, I would've never known a Mel Gravely or a Julia Poston had it not been for my civic engagement. So all of those things, I think, uh, have been, um, part of that journey.

Marianne Lewis: (27:36)
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, let's turn to the, maybe the middle piece of the legacy. Oh,

Michael Fisher: (27:42)
Okay.

Marianne Lewis: (27:43)
, the organizations you've served. Yeah. And maybe we could focus particularly on children's, um, because I have the pleasure of working with some of the, some of the leaders now at Children's who continue to talk about the culture you developed, and particularly for rising leaders. I mean, thinking purposefully about how do you build an organization that's not just running for today, but leading towards tomorrow. Um, could you share a bit about how you, you think about the culture and the practices of leadership development within an organization?

Michael Fisher: (28:19)
Yeah. Look, if I think about the, um, children's example mm-hmm . Um, you know, I think we would think about you can have the most magnificent buildings in the world, and Cincinnati Children's kind of does. Now they do. Um, you can have incredible research funding, uh, and we do, and on and on. Mm-hmm . But at the end of the day, every business, every organization ultimately is about its people and its talent. So I think, you know, we just sort of recognize that, um, investing in leadership, investing in talent, giving people opportunities was a responsibility and a mindset. And in an academic medical center, I think that is understood in many ways. 'cause you always hear the most esteemed, luminary faculty talk about the, the next generation and trying to do that mm-hmm . So I think, you know, I think I benefited from being an environment where that was sort of already understood, but then how do you bring it to life?

Michael Fisher: (29:16)
And I think that, you know, there's a lot of ways, I mean, that we tried to, and, and, and I believe Dr. Davis and the team continue to try to mm-hmm . Uh, you know, one is, uh, communicating and sharing, you know, what's going on? Why are we making these decisions, uh, this investment, not that investment at this point in time. You know? So I think part of that is, uh, just creating an environment where up and coming people have a chance to observe and see other leaders mm-hmm . And oh, by the way, you can learn from people who do things well and not so well. Yeah. . Um, and that's part of learning and growing as an aspiring leader. But we also made intentional efforts. Um, things like, uh, growth assignments, things like serving on internal committees that might be cross departmental. Um, we, you know, we are encouraging people to get involved in the community as we talked about.

Michael Fisher: (30:06)
You know, we had, you know, my first couple years, uh, I started a leadership round table for up and coming leaders about 30 or so a year. And, uh, I would get together with them every month or two, about 30 of 'em at a time. And we'd have some, you know, readings, we'd have some workshop stuff. Uh, again, it built their network, but it also allowed me to have a window mm-hmm . On up and coming talent. Uh, our board of trustees played an important role in that. So, uh, uh, our, what was our compensation committee became the compensation and leadership, uh, leadership or management development committee. And they would really take a look each year at who are the up and coming, uh, leaders in town in the organization, what are their gaps? How do we, uh, get them ready for growth and next assignments? So I hopefully that gives you some flavor. Well,

Marianne Lewis: (30:57)
It, it does. And I just, my editorial note on those , I think that's a brilliant expansion of a compensation committee. Yeah. Which can sometimes be a bit dry. And it sounds almost like you're doing accounting, but compensation only matters when you've got the right people in the right chairs and you're thinking about succession, which you, you clearly were. And you brought more people in to that.

Michael Fisher: (31:17)
Yeah, I think, yes. And we did. And I think, again, I give our committee and our board credit on that. And then it was a mindset. And so, you know, I'd add two, maybe two other things. One is, um, you know, tried to spend time one-on-one with who I saw were up and coming talent. EOS did some of our other senior leaders. Uh, so it might be lunch, it might be a walk in the Evandale neighborhood. Um, but to get to know them, understand what, what's important to them, et cetera. And then I think we, you know, again, nothing's perfect. And I think as we thought about, um, and this really started, uh, maybe in the last, uh, third quarter of my time as CEO, you know, we had accomplished a lot. The organization at that time was 130 plus years old. And, uh, was, you know, had been on a very good trajectory in, on every dimension.

Michael Fisher: (32:05)
You know, obviously patient care, research, uh, education, uh, NIH funding. Yes. Uh, balance sheet, all of that was headed the right way. But, um, we thought, well, as we come up upon our hundred and 50th birthday, which will be in 2033, um, who do we want to be? Where do we want to go? And we were inspired by a telegram from Herbert Hoover from 1930, and a letter from President or Barack Obama from 2016. And that inspired us to say, Hey, by 2033, uh, we wanna pursue our potential together so all kids can pursue theirs. We wanna pursue our potential together so all kids can pursue theirs. And as we thought about what's gonna drive it, and this will get to the leadership development mm-hmm . And culture piece, uh, we said, well, okay, we're gonna have something in the clinical area. We're gonna have something in the research area.

Michael Fisher: (33:03)
We're gonna do something in the community, but culture is gonna matter a lot. And, um, and so when we looked at our culture, we saw some great strengths, but we saw some gaps mm-hmm . And we did that in a pretty methodical, excuse me, methodical and systematic way. And from that, so for example, being maybe too risk averse an organization to be taking smart risks. Right. And there were two, or excuse me, three or four of those kind of things. And we developed a customized culture champions program where we took in the top 200 or so leaders and had intensive two days and cohorts of 20 to 30 people, uh, to really focus on what is the culture rate, what does it mean to be a leader for today and tomorrow? And I think that has served the institution really well. And from that initial 200, we ended up, uh, expanding that on a virtual platform to over a thousand people. Oh,

Marianne Lewis: (33:59)
That's fantastic. Can can we go maybe one step further? Um, I'm thinking about that group, but maybe even more about your round tables. Yeah. How do you, I, what are the signals, how do you identify that rising leader to bring them into a circle like that?

Michael Fisher: (34:17)
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think it's, I mean, even in an AI fueled world, I suspect it's still more art and science mm-hmm . On that front. Um, but so several things come to my mind. I mean, one is, uh, followership. So you know, who are in that next, you know, n minus 1, 2, 3, or four that people just naturally gravitate to. They want to know what they think they want to model. You know, what after what those folks do mm-hmm . So I think there are, uh, influencers and leaders that might be unofficial that, you know, you can observe, you can ask your team who are those people. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's one way you start to do it. Mm-hmm . Um, you know, I think you do look for who's contributing and delivering results, and especially doing so in a way that's congruent with the organization's values.

Michael Fisher: (35:09)
Mm-hmm . And you can see they're hunger to learn. They're hunger to grow. You know, they are, uh, often willing to put themselves out there in a situation they don't know everything about, as opposed to just showing how much expertise they have in one very narrow domain. So I think all of those things can come together. You know, the leadership program that you're referencing early on, I would say that was probably a little bit of more of asking department leaders and so forth. Who would you recommend? Yeah, I could imagine. But I think over time we got maybe a little savvier thinking about, you know, she is really special. Let's find a way to keep giving her more opportunities,

Marianne Lewis: (35:50)
Art and science. Yeah. I would imagine for that. Yeah. Parting advice to rising leaders,

Michael Fisher: (35:58)
,

Marianne Lewis: (35:58)
What would you, what would you tell yourself if you were talking to earlier Michael?

Michael Fisher: (36:04)
Um, well, I think, uh, to, to channel a little bit of Warren Bennis. I mean, I think, uh, leaders are made not born. And, and so I think if you think you've got something to contribute, uh, step up, raise your hand, go do it. Uh, I think reading books is great or online, but, um, when you can actually go do something and have the experience and learn from the experience and make the mistakes, all of that, um, I think, you know, matters a lot. Uh, so that would be the kind of, uh, parting advice. And, um, yeah, we, I, maybe the last thing I'd say is, uh, every organization, every community, and certainly our society needs more leaders, better leaders, I do too, at all levels who are not just competent and capable, but are human, are caring, are kind. So that would be my parting advice.

Marianne Lewis: (37:05)
Thank you. That was beautiful. And I'll build from your, your, your, your Bennis line there, because, uh, I, one, you're such a model for his line of, you know, that leadership development starts early, it lasts a lifetime. Thank you. Michael Fisher, thank you for your inspiration, your impact on this community, your impact on me personally, and for all you do. And our thank you.

Michael Fisher: (37:27)
Thanks, Dean Lewis.

Grant Freking: (37:29)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenge your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats Mean Business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world, come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now for today's episode,

Marianne Lewis: (00:31)
Debbie, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Deborah Hayes: (00:34)
Well, Dean, thank you very much for having me here. I find

Marianne Lewis: (00:37)
Your career journey just remarkable and inspiring. You're currently the president and CEO of the Christ Hospital, and you've risen from a student nurse aid to senior executive. And I've read so much about you and it's more fun to talk to you in person. Your strikes me as a career marked by persistence, adaptability, self-directed learning. I think I'd love to start with was your dream always to become CEO? Is this what you expected to be sitting here now? Well,

Deborah Hayes: (01:08)
No, not at all. And if you would have asked me 38 years ago, would I ever be the CEO of the Christ Hospital Health Network, my answer would've been no, because I, um, loved being a nurse and I never really thought I would do anything other than be a nurse. But then over the course of my time at the Christ Hospital and at the Health Network, I was offered opportunities to do different things. And you know, I'm a non-traditional sort of career person because I had a bachelor's and a master's degree from the University of Cincinnati before I ever went back to nursing school. And, um, the reason that I fell in love with healthcare probably goes back to my childhood when I had a, a crush on a, a physician in a television show called Medical Center Okay. , and loved the whole healthcare, uh, environment back then.

Deborah Hayes: (02:11)
But I worked as a nurse's aide in a local nursing home to pay for my college. And so I grew to love taking care of people and I grew to love the whole healthcare profession there. And so after I got a master's degree, I thought, well, gosh, what am I gonna do with that? And decided to go back into healthcare to, um, really pursue my passion and fell in love with it. And then, um, had an opportunity to go into management mm-hmm . And at the time, I had just delivered my son and thought to myself, well, I don't know if I can do this. And I don't know if I'll like it, but I love doing what I'm doing, so I will try. And if I don't like it, I will go back and return to the ICU, which was my first love the intensive care unit. Right. And I ended up loving that experience because I got to see the impact that you could make on more than just the patient you were taking care of. And I watched a team flourish in some really difficult times, and we became very, very successful. And so that's really how my entire management career started.

Marianne Lewis: (03:24)
I think it's fascinating, Debbie, as you even, I'm hearing the way you're talking about it, you've, your, your career has been one of breadth as well as depth in the the health system. I mean, from IT to operations to, uh, and I've, you and I have spoken about this once before, but when I, I asked how you, you expanded to get so much, you built such credibility in your leadership by having seen all the different elements. You told me something about you going in when you first went into it that you knew enough to be dangerous, why'd you take the job? And then how did you learn through it? Those are big changes,

Deborah Hayes: (04:03)
Right? Well, you know, and I, I think, um, as a leader, what I've learned is that, um, a job description is one thing, and what the job actually is is quite another. And so even when I became the chief nursing officer, right, I had a lot to learn. I was a director and then moved into an executive position. And I did that for about 13 years. And I learned something every single day, which is part of the beauty of being able to have different experiences. And, um, when I took over as the Chief Information Officer, it was, uh, in a very interesting time in the health system. And there was a need. And I thought to myself, well, I know enough because I've worked with some of our IT functions. But it, it seemed very exciting to me. And as I was looking forward, I knew that it was going to be something that would be influencing the health system for years to come. And so for me, it was another way to learn about the organization. And, you know, I learned things about our organization during that time that I probably would never have learned if I would've just stayed in my lane. And so I think that's part of leadership is we have to always be willing to learn something new, to stretch our thinking so that we can help lead those who are trying to achieve the strategic plans of our respective organizations.

Marianne Lewis: (05:32)
It truly might be our ultimate skill is the ability to learn. And I, I love hearing that from leaders. I've tried to share that with students. I look at your, your, your, even your CV and see, I mean, you've been to all the major higher education institutions of the region. You are a lifelong learner in a very intentional way. It's more than degrees though. Would you share a little bit more about how you learn and help others learn with you?

Deborah Hayes: (06:00)
Right. Well, you know, I think, um, yeah. My, my father used to always say, are you ever gonna graduate? And I used to say to him, no, I'm not going to, because it's part of my responsibility as a leader to, to try and be the best person that I can be to help lead others in, in the way that they need it to be led. And sometimes I think it's formal education. Mm-hmm . Sometimes I think it is education through reading on your own, through, um, professional seminars, um, through affinity groups where you can hear the different breadth and depth and perceptions of others who may have your same circumstance or quite frankly may have a very different perception of the circumstance that you may be dealing with. And so I have a leadership philosophy that not only do you hope that your organization that you work for will help you grow, but I also believe that we each have a professional responsibility to grow our own.

Marianne Lewis: (07:05)
Well, I could not say, could not agree more. It, it leads me to a question also about leadership. Um, a former president here at uc was named Warren Bennis. Some consider him the founder of the field of leadership. And he had, um, a saying that became really a mantra that we often use here, that leadership is forged in the crucible. That in our toughest times we find our, our greatest strengths. And we kind of dig deep. I mean, I know you've had plenty of those kinds of crucible moments. One that strikes me as, as particularly important was the COVID-19 pandemic. There was no playbook. This was completely unprecedented and an incredible time for learning about yourself, the organization, your team. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you approached something of that magnitude.

Deborah Hayes: (07:58)
Sure. Um, as you said, it was a frightening moment for all of us in healthcare because we are traditionally, um, driven by science. And we are traditionally driven by, uh, trial and error. That becomes the scientific evidence of how you provide healthcare. Well, all of that playbook was gone because there was no science and people didn't really understand what the trajectory of this was going to be. And so you really have to dig down deep right into your own personal acumen. But then you have to rely on your teams and you hope that you have built teams around you that can be, um, vigorous in their efforts and can be creative. Because we were creating, as we went, there were oftentimes when we would meet in the morning chart, a path for the day, and literally hours later we're changing that path because there were external forces that we did not anticipate would be a part of what was going to challenge us either for that day or for that week, or quite frankly, uh, four months to come. And so your teams were having to huddle and try to think creatively about how they might provide that same quality of care, but in a very different way and break norms and rules that we had ingrained in them mm-hmm . For years. And we are now asking them to put that aside, but to still try and make sure that those patients were getting the finest care that they could possibly get under some extremely difficult circumstances.

Marianne Lewis: (09:49)
I I imagine that the culture that you have developed played an enormous role even though there were so many unforeseen elements to that. Um, I was talking with a, a colleague of yours, uh, Steve Rossfeld, um, and he, I was asking him a bit about the culture and, and I've read about it as well. I mean, you are known so much through the Christ Hospital Network for this deep culture of care and commitment. Building culture though, is really challenging and sustaining it probably even more. So h how do you think about that from a culture building side of leadership?

Deborah Hayes: (10:28)
Well, you know, the old adage culture eats strategy is so true. And I think it helps that I grew up in the health system. I've literally done just about every job that you could think of. Sounds like it in the health system. And I have a, a, a great respect for each one of our team members. One of the things that's really important to me is the concept of team. And so we do not call our employees employees, they're called team members. And I use a lot of analogies of team sports and I think about the Super Bowl that just happened last night, right. And two teams that should have never gotten to where they were. And yet one of them comes out victorious. But the other one has a lot and did learn a lot through that entire experience. But every team member within our health network has a key role in delivering on the promise that we've made to the community. Whether it's helping to ensure that we have excellent clinical outcomes or an excellent guest experience, or doing so in an affordable way so that everybody in this community can get world class healthcare right here in greater Cincinnati. And we try to instill that in the team members through reward and recognition, through helping them to grow to be the best that they can be through ensuring that they are celebrated when they do wonderful things. And even when they're celebrated for doing things. That might just seem like that's just part of my job.

Marianne Lewis: (12:03)
It it brings me back to, to your mantra and your emphasis on learning as well, because you also like to look for benchmarks and often outside of healthcare. Yes. I wonder if you could share a bit about how you find those benchmarks and, and give us an example. 'cause I know you have some good ones.

Deborah Hayes: (12:21)
Right. Well, it's important to me to understand if you think about our strategic plan, how do I deliver exactly what I've promised? So if you think about experience, patient and guest experience is different in different industries, but it's yet still the same. So we have brought, uh, the Ritz-Carlton in. We have studied Disney, we have studied the airlines. Now some might say good or bad experience, but it's really about taking the best principles from many service industries and trying to say how does that translate into the healthcare situation? Because people want to be treated as human beings. They want to be, um, they want to feel like people care about what their circumstances, whatever that might be. And they wanna know that people are gonna go to the nth degree to help them have a great experience regardless of what service it is that they are asking to experience.

Marianne Lewis: (13:23)
Yeah, absolutely. And and living up to your promise in that way, is it, it it clearly it is embedded in the culture and that's why I eat strategy for breakfast, right? Because then it's everywhere without having to call upon it, you just count on it. Right.

Deborah Hayes: (13:39)
And, you know, for us, taking care of people's health, which is their most important asset mm-hmm . Is a privilege, but it's a huge responsibility. And um, you know, in order for us to be able to deliver on that promise, we benchmark ourselves against all. Some people say, well, let's just benchmark ourselves against something of our size. And I'm like, no, people do not care how big or how small we are. All they are interested in is their experience. So we need to make sure that we're the best of the best regardless of our size, our shape, our complexity. 'cause that's what people in Greater Cincinnati deserve.

Marianne Lewis: (14:22)
They do. And I think what in the point of greater Cincinnati, you care very much about this city, this region. I see it in your civic leadership. It's something we talk a lot to about with our students, is that great leaders think beyond their own organization because your stakeholders are so much farther reaching. And I have the great privilege of serving on the United Way board with you and seeing your leadership there. I'd love to know more about why your why and because you're very busy. You've got work, family, a life in so many different ways, and you give back to this city in some very big ways and it clearly matters to you.

Deborah Hayes: (15:03)
Well, thank you for recognizing that. Um, I think it goes back to my upbringing. My grandparents really had not very much money, and they were certainly of no means. Farmers came, uh, from a small town in Indiana, and they literally would have given the shirt off their back to anyone. And that translated into my parents who had an incredible work ethic. My father didn't even speak English when they moved to Cincinnati. He spoke German. My mom was a high school graduate, and they taught me early on that it was really important to take care of others around you. And I'm very faithful. I'm Catholic by back, by upbringing. And that was part of our faith. And you know, my, we had one car when I was growing up and, you know, a treat was to have a soda and go to Ponderosa on a Sunday evening.

Deborah Hayes: (15:59)
My mom worked until she was 70. And this, this is the work ethic that she had. When she passed away very suddenly, she had worked at McDonald's her, um, entire work life after my second brother was born. And they closed the McDonald's for the entire three days over the course of her funeral so that all the employees at McDonald's could go and pay their respects. That's beautiful. And that's the kind of household that I was brought up in, is that it's our responsibility to give back to others. And so as I have ascended into different roles, I feel like it is a professional and a personal responsibility to give back to others that probably gave back to me and I didn't even know it. And so being on boards like United Way and Arts Wave and a, a number of other boards that I've been on is really important to me because it's the vibrancy of the community that we serve that will not only impact their health, but also it will impact how well Cincinnati does as a whole.

Marianne Lewis: (17:05)
It is, it's so interwoven and we have a great city. I mean, of, of people who do care, especially at the leadership level. I, it's something that matters a great deal to me. And I want our students to understand that's how great cities thrive.

Deborah Hayes: (17:19)
Well, when you look at per capita in Cincinnati, the philanthropic support that is given to this community to help those who have need is by far and away much greater than in many other cities of our size or even bigger. And it's because of the great legacy of families that live here. And it's all about how do we elevate this city to make it a great place for people to bring their businesses, to bring, uh, students here to study, and then to keep students here once they finish their degrees. I mean, our health system was started through the philanthropic efforts of James Gamble, the founder of Proctor and Gamble, who looked out into the city back in the 1880s and said, I'm gonna build my soap business here and my candle making business with William Proctor. And what do we have to do in order to make this a great place for people to work, people to live, people to play, to raise their families? And here we are, 137 years later.

Marianne Lewis: (18:27)
Isn't that a testament? I love that. Yes. That's wonderful. Yes. Thank you. Um, at the Lindner College of Business, uh, we strive to empower business problem solvers. That's our, our, our mission. And we believe if we can help students, whatever their, wherever they end up in a career or, or a location for that matter, that if they can be great problem solvers, they will have meaningful, impactful lives as well as be successful. And when I, when you think about your own problem solving, particularly when it comes to unforeseen challenges, I wonder if there's an example. I think you, you, we know the legislative challenges. There have been so many dynamic changes. How do you approach a problem? Right. Can you give us a little sense of

Deborah Hayes: (19:14)
That? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand your business, and then you have to really dig into whatever that challenge is going to be and how you might think it's going to affect different aspects of your business. So let's look at some of the legislative challenges just in healthcare. So up through, we'll say July of 2025, no one really anticipated what it's, you can call it the big beautiful Bill or HR one was going to and how it might impact the healthcare system. So now that we know what it is, we are diving deep into what do each of those elements mean? And then really taking a hard look at our industry saying, okay, if this is what the bill means, then how are we going to react to that? And this is where I think ingenuity and creativity has to come into play and using, um, industry leaders to try and help formulate plans for that. But then also thinking about how are we going to transform the way that we are delivering care that will do so in an even more efficient manner, but yet keep the same outcomes or even better outcomes.

Marianne Lewis: (20:34)
I so appreciate the way you, you explain that, Debbie, because I, I hear your systems thinking, you think about how all of the, the parts work together. I mean, I think that part of that is your breadth, but I also think you're, you're thinking beyond healthcare because it could be everything from insurance, right, to the financial sector. How do we make this work so that we don't have unintended consequences that take us the wrong way?

Deborah Hayes: (20:59)
And then really thinking about what are the innovations happening in either our industry or in others when we think about agentic ai? And that won't be the answer for everything, right? But how can we use that to either improve the healthcare experience or really to make people more effective in the jobs that they have? Because one of the things that I think about is

Deborah Hayes: (21:25)
The demographics of the United States, and with the birth rates, the way they are, the workforce of the future in terms of just sheer numbers are not going to be what they are currently today. And with 10,000 Americans going on to the Medicare payrolls, that means 65 and over every day 10,000 people move into that category. The number of people coming behind them is not as great. And so that workforce of the post World War II era, those numbers aren't going to be there. So how can technology help us to deliver the same products with maybe less people? It's not about taking people's jobs away. It's about how do we make people more effective in a place where there may not be that many people to deliver those same services?

Marianne Lewis: (22:16)
I appreciate the way you even described that, Debbie. 'cause I hear you playing a long game and thinking about today, right? Managing that tension of today and tomorrow, right? With the rate of change, whether it's AI legislation, I mean, there's so many changes going on and the rate, we're never gonna slow down. I mean, people have said that before, but I, I wonder what you think that means for leadership. Do you envision leadership or the, the needs of leadership changing in the future?

Deborah Hayes: (22:47)
I think that, uh, leaders are going to have to be, um, extremely creative. I think leaders are gonna have to be incredibly inspiring. And I think that leaders are going to have to be, again, and I say this to our new team members, you are gonna constantly have to challenge yourself to learn about what is coming so that you can apply it to what is happening today in order to influence the trajectory of your respective organization.

Marianne Lewis: (23:20)
Oh, absolutely. You know, we're very proud of our Bearcat alumni, especially someone so inspiring as you, Debbie, if you're sitting in my seat. What would you be telling to students today? If you could give them some advice, looking back, what would you like to share?

Deborah Hayes: (23:37)
Well, the first thing I would say is find your passion. And that passion, quite honestly, may change over time, but find something that you love to do. Because we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of energy at work, and we spend a lot of our human capital at work. So I'd say find your passion first. The second thing I would say is be determined, because oftentimes your path might not be a straight line. My path was not a straight line. Um, and sometimes there are disappointments in that, but stay determined and stay on the path. Um, because if that's your passion, it can happen, but it may not be in the manner in which you think. The third, I would say is to be a lifelong learner. Mm-hmm . And the last, I would say, and I say this to every, um, young person that I mentor, put your hand up and volunteer. When the call goes out about, I need someone to do this. Even if you're not sure if you can do it, put your hand up and try. Because you will learn something every single time you do it. And it will open doors that may never, ever have been opened if you didn't do that.

Marianne Lewis: (24:52)
You just never know.

Deborah Hayes: (24:54)
You, you just never know. But

Marianne Lewis: (24:55)
Putting up your hand, taking the initiative, continuing to learn. So, so many insights. Thank you for your thought leadership as well as your active leadership in this community, certainly at the Christ Hospital Network. Thank you for all you do, Debbie, and for being here today.

Deborah Hayes: (25:11)
Well, thank you Dean. And it's been an honor and a pleasure to be here. Uh, this is a wonderful organization and I'm so happy to be able to help the students.

Grant Freking: (25:20)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.

Grant Freking: (00:00)
What does real world success in business actually look like? Welcome the Bearcats mean business, the official podcast of the University of Cincinnati's, Carl H. Lindner College of Business, where inspiring career stories, honest lessons, and fresh business perspectives from the people building impact in the real world come together. Tune in for inspiration, practical business insights, and forward-looking thought leadership on how ambition turns into action. And now, for today's episode.

Grant Freking: (00:30)
Shawn, you were born in San Diego, you went to high school in North Carolina, and you've lived across the US and multiple countries. How did moving so often shape the way you see people, places, stories?

Shawn Peterson: (00:45)
Yeah. So I think that moving around at an early age has really helped form my, um, mental way of seeing the world and processing things. I think that has helped me be able to adapt fast and quickly compared to a lot of kids my age. And I think that that has helped with the way of not having a fear of moving forward with things that I have ambitions towards.

Grant Freking: (01:09)
Sure. Um, and I know your family is really important to you. Who in your family would you say has most influenced you today? ?

Shawn Peterson: (01:16)
The person that has most influenced me to this day is probably my grandmother and my mother. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:22)
And why is that?

Shawn Peterson: (01:24)
So for one, my grandmother, she has really shaped the way that I, you know, handle my photography work. I think that when it comes to her, she, she passed away before I had a lot of memories of her and experiences with her, but it has helped me realize the worth of memories and how fast they can kind of, you know, quickly fade. And with my mother, you know, she's always been a very supportive person of what I do. Whether she knows, you know, or understands what I do. Exactly. It doesn't matter. She's always gonna be there and stick by my side. So she's a very loving woman and I respect her a lot for that. Okay.

Grant Freking: (01:59)
And you mentioned photography, which is part of why we're here today. You were gifted a camera at 16. Were you already hooked on photography then, or that was sort of that sort of kickstart there?

Shawn Peterson: (02:08)
Yeah, so when, actually when I was 16, I did not even know if photography existed, you know? Okay. I've always had an interest in editing videos, you know, doing a lot of graphic design work. But at the age of 16, I was going through a little bit of a, a stump in life. I had a little bit of negativity going on when it came to school, sports, all the kind of things that teenagers go through, right? Yep. Of course. And, um, I remember one day coming home from school, a little bit upset, crying to my mother. I'm a very emotional person and she, you know, without hesitation asked me, you know, are there any hobbies that you're interested in? And I said, you know, I don't know, maybe photography. And without hesitation, she quickly said, all right, let's go. And we head straight to the best buy. And she got me the first camera that she saw.

Grant Freking: (02:58)
And what did that mean to you?

Shawn Peterson: (02:59)
Uh, you know, that really showed, you know, how much my mother really supports me, even though there are times when you might think that you're, you know, your parent, you know, doesn't love you and you're being very exaggerative about that. Yeah. It really shows that, you know, they're willing to do whatever it takes to, you know, help you achieve your goals and be happy in life. And, um, just going out there and, you know, she didn't even look at the price tag. Wow. She asked, you know, the staff, what's the best, you know, beginner camera, I can get 'em. And then we walked out and first thing she said is, I love you. You know? So, um, that really shows the type of person that she is. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (03:32)
That's amazing. That's transition to actually how you ended up here in this physical location, Lindner Hall where we're at right now. When you were looking for a college experience, um, what were you kind of looking for? What seemed, what was gonna be a kind of a good fit for you in, in your eyes?

Shawn Peterson: (03:46)
So when it came to looking for colleges, the thing that really was my main priority was what school can change who I am as a person. And I think growing up in a town in North Carolina, next to the beach in a small town, a lot of people say stagnant and stay in that one area. And I was afraid of being that person who would, you know, be there for the next 40 years. I see. I wanted a lot of growth and I think coming to a school that prides itself on its business aspect in the co-ops, which is something that I think, you know, needs to be out there at more schools, I think that was a real, you know, benefit, you know, and a big factor of why I chose this school. You know, I think that this school can support me and my goals and give me the knowledge that I need to succeed in what I do. And I know that this school can stand behind my back and I can represent this with, you know, full confident and pride.

Grant Freking: (04:38)
Yeah. And so the real world experience kind of aspect that co-ops kind of bring, that was like an one of the main draw for you. Um, what, what were some, were there any other traits or programs that kind of stuck out to you? Or was it just like the real, the kind of the overall arc of the real world experience experience?

Shawn Peterson: (04:52)
So one of them was not really a trait of the school, it was more so, um, you know, something that ties back to my mother, right? Okay. She had me at the age of 18. Okay. And she didn't really have a lot of opportunities after that because she has to, you know, fend for a kid. And she's a Cincinnati native. And so while I've traveled and lived around the world, you know, she grew up primarily in Cincinnati and she never had the chance to go to school. So I figured, you know, might as well rep as University of Cincinnati, because at the end of the day, a student of the University of Cincinnati, their family's also part of the University of Cincinnati.

Grant Freking: (05:25)
Absolutely. Let's talk about your business, Shawnie's Cinema. When did you decide to go into business for yourself?

Shawn Peterson: (05:33)
So that was a kind of a no brainer for me when it comes to creative stuff and you know, the generation that we're growing up in, I believe that a lot of the creative things you can do, you can learn online. We have YouTube, we have TikTok now to look at courses and how to do certain things. And I think that when it comes down to running a business, 90% of it is not the work that you do, it's the knowledge that you have to actually operate it. Mm. And I can easily, I can teach anybody how to pick up a camera in less than a day. But teaching them the skills to run the business smoothly and operate is something that I can't learn unless I come to University of Cincinnati. And I think that this school is helping me currently at this moment take those skills and apply it into the work that I do.

Grant Freking: (06:21)
Can you think of like some specific examples? Maybe if it's some, we talked a little bit about what classes you are you're in today before you, you came to the podcast studio. What are some, maybe some specific things that are kind of ticking those boxes and that you're implementing or being able to implement to your business like right away?

Shawn Peterson: (06:36)
Yeah. So one of the classes that has really helped me recently was financial accounting. Okay. I'm taking managerial accounting right now, and that has really helped me with the finance aspect of it. Sure. Handling all the, you know, the paperwork, the accounting side, the budgeting when it comes to doing my work. Because if you don't handle the accounting, you're gonna kind of run out of the money. And it's helped me with a lot of the travel work that I've done where I've had to go outta state to do destination engagement sessions and other type of work such as weddings and proposals.

Grant Freking: (07:07)
So I'm curious what kind of like business problem, or maybe it was just a personal goal, were you trying to solve for yourself when you started your photography business? Or was it a vacancy maybe you saw in the field for, to fulfill for others?

Shawn Peterson: (07:21)
Yeah. So by vacancy in the field of like the wedding industry, yeah. It was primarily the feeling that the clients aren't getting somebody to take the photos that have a deep connection towards them and the event that's going on. Mm. A lot of the times when you get a photographer for a certain event or just like family photos, it kind of feels just like a client to, you know, personnel feeling. Yeah. Like

Grant Freking: (07:46)
Trans transactional.

Shawn Peterson: (07:47)
Yeah. Transactional. And that's not something that I really, you know, enjoy. I'm there for the people at the end of the day, it's their biggest day and you don't want to ruin it. Mm-hmm . And so when I go into a wedding, it's, you know, I'm their best friend. I've learned a lot about them before even the wedding happens, all their family members where they had their first kiss, you know, so my goal is to make their day be memorable. And when they're able to look back at that photo and realize and remember that exact scenario and that feeling that it invokes that, that means my mission was completed, that I did my job properly. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (08:22)
Absolutely. Do you remember getting your first client?

Shawn Peterson: (08:24)
Yes. So my first client was when I was in North Carolina. Okay. And it was honestly a very nerve wracking, you know,

Grant Freking: (08:33)
Well, naturally, yeah,

Shawn Peterson: (08:34)
Yeah. Event. And how it happened was it was actually my counselor. Oh, okay. And so my counselor, you know, said, you know, I know you take photos for people for free and stuff, and I was wondering if you could do a family photo session for me. And I was like, okay, sure. We will do it on the beach. It's nice. Unbeknownst to me though, that it was actually a pregnancy reveal. Oh. And that she was having a baby. And if I knew that, I probably would've said no. But she knew that I needed that little step forward to push me to venture out there and, you know, tackle something that I'm not comfortable with. And it has really helped me be able to engage with other people and keep continuing to push my work forward.

Grant Freking: (09:14)
And how, how did that go?

Shawn Peterson: (09:16)
It was, um, a lot of it of haywire in my head. You know, a lot of things jumbled around thinking, I need to do this, I need to do that. But at the end of the day when I just calm down and I enjoy the moment with them, I think that's what really matters to them. Mm. They don't necessarily care about the poses and how, um, you, you know, handle it. They're more so there for the vibes and if the photos turn out nice and, you know, they recall he was a great photographer, we had a fun time with him. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (09:41)
Getting an authentic experience, which I think is what you're trying to convey too. Mm-hmm . So how do you balance operating a business full-time and being a student full-time? How was that like for you?

Shawn Peterson: (09:52)
I wouldn't say there's necessarily a, um, a way to balance it. I think that there's priorities. Okay. And so at the end of the day, you need to sit down and think what needs to get done, if there's a high priority to it, priority to it, or if there's a low priority. And I've always put myself a student first and then a business second. And that's also been applied, you know, in earlier aspects of my life, I was student first, athlete second. Mm-hmm . You know, my coaches always, you know, you know, put that into our souls and, you know, preach that all the time. Right. And so I always make sure, you know, the work is done first when it comes to school, and then we handle the business side of things. Now, obviously if it comes to a wedding and it's a huge importance, it's their biggest day, we need to sit down and look at our schedule and see what we can work and move around. Right.

Grant Freking: (10:41)
What's the hardest part about running a business right now?

Shawn Peterson: (10:44)
I think the hardest part is the limitations when it comes to age. That's something that a lot of people don't necessarily realize. Um, when you don't real, when you don't manage a business, is that there's things that I cannot do and there's, um, things that I can't prevent. You know, when it comes to transportation or lodging, when I go for long distance, you know, events, I can't rent a, a driver like a

Grant Freking: (11:09)
Car. Right. Yeah. You gotta be 25, I think, to do that in Ohio. Yeah.

Shawn Peterson: (11:12)
So I have to rely on Uber, and that's kind of an issue in some rural prices where there's only like three Uber drivers. Yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest limitations is being able to safely get to where I need to be and to be able to move around.

Grant Freking: (11:27)
Sure. And what's, like, what are you enjoying the most right now about your business?

Shawn Peterson: (11:31)
I think the thing that I'm enjoying the most about my business is honestly interacting with new people. Okay. I think that that's something that I have been trying to work on since I've moved here from North Carolina, is just interacting with a lot more people and having a good time. And I think that, you know, like I told you, as long as you can make this session feel amazing and great for them, it's gonna work out amazing. And I had a good time all my sessions and you know, my clients, they loved me. They all had a good time as well. So just interacting with people, having a good time is what definitely makes my job feel special and it doesn't feel like a job.

Grant Freking: (12:06)
Right. Um, your business, the photography business is one that's based on feedback. Um, your clients are probably consist, are consistently weighing in on your work. I'm sure most of it's positive, but how, how do you manage that? Um, kind of taking in like, I guess the compliments and like patting yourself on the back and also maybe receiving comments that maybe look may maybe make you look inward and be like, all right, I have room to work on this.

Shawn Peterson: (12:28)
Yeah. So how I handle feedback is I always take it in a open, you know, I'm an open-minded person. Mm-hmm . I always take it with, um, you know, care. I'm always looking for feedback, you know, I help, it helps you with growth. Um, that being said, I am a very independent person and I like to test things out before moving with, you know, suggestions. And a lot of the times, you know, being at a young age, um, it backfires. There's a lot of backfiring moments. And my mother, if she was here today, she could say the same thing, like I told you so, you know. Yeah. But I think that's great because it has really helped me become a more of an independent person and be able to learn, you know, I am at that stage in my life where I'm able to make risks. I'm able to fail. I'm not at a, you know, absolutely. A later point in my life where I can't, you know, afford to take those risks.

Grant Freking: (13:16)
Yeah. Try things out. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Absolutely. Do you deal with self-doubt at all? And if so, how do you push through it?

Shawn Peterson: (13:22)
Yeah, so I do deal with self-doubt, even though I am a really confident person. Mm. I think it really stems down to, you know, being in that situation where, let's say I'm in a wedding, right? I'm a 19-year-old photographer in an industry that is typically owned by older people, you know? Yeah. And so it's pretty easy during the wedding with a wedding party, we're having great fun time, and then it comes down to after the ceremony where there's a hundred people there and you need to take photos and control and be a leader. And I don't necessarily take it as a worrisome, you know, weight, I take it more as a responsibility and that they respect me and that they chose me to take control and lead their biggest day of their life.

Grant Freking: (14:04)
Yeah. Get through all those different family photos and everything they want on their checklist. Yeah. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the sort of the transportation issues that you run into. What's sort of a, a shooter travel experience that presented like maybe other unique challenges for you? I know you mentioned, you know, Vermont, uh, and a pre and a pre-conversation we had, but what, what other things come to mind there?

Shawn Peterson: (14:24)
Yeah, so I mean, if we can go to Vermont for this story actually, um, in case people, you know, haven't been to Vermont, it's kind of a rural area, right? Yeah. And so my, my client, you know, he wanted to take photos at Quee State Park, which is right near, you know, New Hampshire and, uh, Lebanon, that little border Okay. Of Vermont. And so when I fly into there, it was all going smooth and everything we had, I prepped everything, the travel, the logistics, the budgeting, you name it. However, the thing I did not account for was it's a rural area with no Ubers. It's not like Cincinnati where you can get an Uber in five seconds. Mm-hmm . You have to plan for it a day before. So it's nine 30 at nighttime. I can't rent a car and I'm struggling. I'm thinking, well, I might have to walk 15 minutes to get to the hotel. You know? So I think that that was a real opener, uh, and a good experience, you know, to, um, take forward and learn from that, that, you know, I need to, um, be more precise and I need to be more focused on the things that I can't control and figure out solutions to work around that. Yeah.

Grant Freking: (15:30)
It's like all aspects of, of the trip, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm . Let's close with a couple of thoughts on, um, a more advice I guess for, um, from you to maybe other Lindner students that are maybe looking to take the leap to have an idea about starting a business. Um, maybe they even have their own business. What are some like top tips you would give them? Um, I guess maybe besides just like going for it and like following your passion, what are top tips that you maybe you kind of have learned now, but like in the early days, kind of like stumped you a little bit?

Shawn Peterson: (16:01)
Okay. Besides those few, you know, generic kind of answers, I think that you should honestly start before you're ready. Mm-hmm . I think that's something that's not really said a lot. A lot of people can say, you know, um, your dreams don't move without you. And I think that's true and you need to start before you're ready. And that's something that, um, Stephen Pressfield has said. That's his quote, his famous quote, start before you're ready. Mm. You know, if you start before you're ready, good things will happen. And I think that's something that, you know, really insinuates that you shouldn't be afraid to start, especially when you have the opportunity to take risks. Like I said earlier, if you just are so, if you're so hung up on, you know, the qualifications for that job, then you're never gonna actually get there. Because at the end of the day, it's all about reps, reps, reps, reps. And that helps you get that experience. And so you might as well get those reps starting out before you even learn, even are even qualified for the job. Yeah. That way you can learn the ups and downs of it. And if you actually even like the job.

Grant Freking: (17:02)
Yeah. Give it, give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. Get those, get that some of that real world experience.

Shawn Peterson: (17:06)
And it's okay if it fails, you know, we're all gonna have opportunities to grow from that. I fail, you know, I failed a million times. We've all failed and we've had those type of moments, but it's really about how you can come back from that. And you know, your parents have probably told you that as well. It's, you know, it's how you get back up, you know, and I think that's a great thing to, you know, carry forward is, you know, to start Before you're ready.

Grant Freking: (17:29)
Thank you for listening to this episode of Bearcats Mean Business. If today's episode sparked a new idea, challenged your thinking or helped you see your path a little more clearly, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the episode with someone in your network. Thanks for being part of the conversation. And remember, real world success begins here at Lindner.